NWN2: Storm of Zehir is out!

[newc0253]

All buffs disappear when you go back to the overland map, which makes buffing pretty much useless. Which in turn makes wizards and clerics kind of useless.

so the inability of buffs to transfer to the overland map means buffs are useless?

 

and therefore wizards and clerics are useless because they're only good for buffing?

 

why stop there?

 

if wizards and clerics are useless, then surely the whole game is useless.

 

and the game is on my computer, so my computer is useless.

 

and if my computer is useless, i may as well just use it as a doorstop.

 

but it would be too big to be a doorstop, so that must mean my door is useless.

 

so, thanks, Obsidian: you broke my fricking door.

[Lare Kikkeli]

All buffs disappear when you go back to the overland map, which makes buffing pretty much useless. Which in turn makes wizards and clerics kind of useless.

so the inability of buffs to transfer to the overland map means buffs are useless?

 

and therefore wizards and clerics are useless because they're only good for buffing?

 

words

 

Compared to favoured souls and sorcerers, yes they are.

[newc0253]

Casting buffs is very cumbersome and can take up to two minutes. Is this a "feature" to make the game harder? Sounds more like sloppy coding to me.

maybe.

 

or maybe it's just more realistic that a buffing spell that lasts maybe 10 minutes tops wouldn't be much bloody use in an overland journey that may take the better part of a day.

[Lare Kikkeli]

Casting buffs is very cumbersome and can take up to two minutes. Is this a "feature" to make the game harder? Sounds more like sloppy coding to me.

maybe.

 

or maybe it's just more realistic that a buffing spell that lasts maybe 10 minutes tops wouldn't be much bloody use in an overland journey that may take the better part of a day.

 

wait are you actually defending obsdian on this? its sloppy coding. they admitted it. it's not there for realism, it's there because they either didn't know how or didn't have enough time to fix it. there's no excuse really.

[Rosbjerg]

Actually he's using logic..

[newc0253]

wait are you actually defending obsdian on this?

wait, am i?

 

yes. yes, i am.

 

its sloppy coding. they admitted it. it's not there for realism, it's there because they either didn't know how or didn't have enough time to fix it. there's no excuse really.

either they didn't know or didn't have enough time to fix it, or maybe they just didn't think it was important because - y'know - casting a 10 minute buff spell for the sake of a 12 hour journey is kinda silly really.

[Lare Kikkeli]

actually no he's not since it affects both the 10 minute buffs and the 8 hour buffs. he's just a rabid little fanboy.

[newc0253]

actually no he's not since it affects both the 10 minute buffs and the 8 hour buffs. he's just a rabid little fanboy.

hey, you know what doesn't run out after 10 minutes?

 

ritalin.

[Rosbjerg]

Arguing is fine, personal attacks are not.

 

Let's not ruin this thread for everyone else.

 

Ok?

[Marcus]

I'm still looking for a way to rotate the overworld map.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Marcus

[Nightshape]

The game is good, the engine is crap.

 

it's in a playing condition now.. But waiting a few months wouldn't hurt

 

Both true for every NWN product ever... although you could argue NWN2 vanilla was broken out of the box for a few people. But then, so was NWN, when the engine first graced millions' computers.

 

That engine never graced nothing...

 

That said, it does seem like there has been some serious uber optermisation tak' place with oldee electron

Edited November 27, 2008 by Nightshape

[J.E. Sawyer]

"Effects are removed on the Overland Map since visual fx don't scale with the character size. Otherwise, giant walking bubbles would be striding across the land."

 

Uh, you have a coder yes?? A person who knows computer code yes???

I understand the complaint, but please tone down the attitude. You're aggressively arguing from the position of someone unfamiliar with the code base and trivializing things that aren't trivial. If it were as simple as MAINTAIN_BUFFS_BUT_REMOVE_VFX_ON_THE_GUY = TRUE, we would have done it. We're working with a code base that's approaching its tenth anniversary and has accumulated an enormous amount of content over NWN, SoU, HotU, NWN2, MotB, and now SoZ. Virtually anything could be accomplished or changed in a game given enough time, but it's not always a wise use of time. And often, the limitations of ancient engineering decisions are not immediately apparent when a new system (like the overland map) is being designed.

 

I know it's comfortable to assume that every feature is simple to implement and every bug is easy to fix, but that doesn't match the reality of the situation. NWN and NWN2 are driven by logic, data, and script. Visual effects can come from a wide variety of sources within those categories, and those effects often do not carry data with them that allows for easy sorting/categorization. That can make it difficult to suppress the visual effects you don't want but retain the visual effects you do want.

 

Here's an analogous NWN2 situation: when I came onto NWN2, I learned that stacking rules were not properly implemented in the engine. Some things were handled code-side, some were handled haphazardly in script, and most "by-the-book" stacking rules were totally ignored. That's why in NWN, SoU, and HotU, you could stack tons of ability score-modifying items together to get super high stats. There were so many items, game effects and script functions that used the various bonus effects that it would have been incredibly laborious to retrofit everything to follow the proper rules. We talked to WotC about it and they said they would rather have nothing stack than everything stack, and that was the most accurate D&D solution we could implement given the resources available. As a hack, Andy Woo put in an exception for Barbarian Rage, but it was the hackiest hack that every hacked.

 

D&D is really big. The Aurora code base is really big. The accumulated content of the games is huge. We do genuinely screw up here at Obsidian, but we're not a gang of drooling, lazy buffoons.

 

EDIT: As an addendum, this was something that several programmers have looked at, and there did not seem to be a "magic bullet" that did everything people would want/nothing they did not want. It's possible that could change in the future, but it comes down to available time for analysis and implementation.

[Nick_i_am]

Sawyowned

[Volourn]

Game over.

[Llyranor]

Can you at least allow the SoZ menu music to be replaced with the MotB music? Can that be coded?

[Wombat]

I understand the complaint, but please tone down the attitude. You're aggressively arguing from the position of someone unfamiliar with the code base and trivializing things that aren't trivial. If it were as simple as MAINTAIN_BUFFS_BUT_REMOVE_VFX_ON_THE_GUY = TRUE, we would have done it. We're working with a code base that's approaching its tenth anniversary and has accumulated an enormous amount of content over NWN, SoU, HotU, NWN2, MotB, and now SoZ. Virtually anything could be accomplished or changed in a game given enough time, but it's not always a wise use of time. And often, the limitations of ancient engineering decisions are not immediately apparent when a new system (like the overland map) is being designed.

 

I know it's comfortable to assume that every feature is simple to implement and every bug is easy to fix, but that doesn't match the reality of the situation. NWN and NWN2 are driven by logic, data, and script. Visual effects can come from a wide variety of sources within those categories, and those effects often do not carry data with them that allows for easy sorting/categorization. That can make it difficult to suppress the visual effects you don't want but retain the visual effects you do want.

 

Here's an analogous NWN2 situation: when I came onto NWN2, I learned that stacking rules were not properly implemented in the engine. Some things were handled code-side, some were handled haphazardly in script, and most "by-the-book" stacking rules were totally ignored. That's why in NWN, SoU, and HotU, you could stack tons of ability score-modifying items together to get super high stats. There were so many items, game effects and script functions that used the various bonus effects that it would have been incredibly laborious to retrofit everything to follow the proper rules. We talked to WotC about it and they said they would rather have nothing stack than everything stack, and that was the most accurate D&D solution we could implement given the resources available. As a hack, Andy Woo put in an exception for Barbarian Rage, but it was the hackiest hack that every hacked.

 

D&D is really big. The Aurora code base is really big. The accumulated content of the games is huge. We do genuinely screw up here at Obsidian, but we're not a gang of drooling, lazy buffoons.

 

EDIT: As an addendum, this was something that several programmers have looked at, and there did not seem to be a "magic bullet" that did everything people would want/nothing they did not want. It's possible that could change in the future, but it comes down to available time for analysis and implementation.

Although I am yet another person who doesn't know much about the development, I guess I see the difficulty in combining good-looking 3D games with complex rule-sets, at least, to some extent. Maybe, for next tactical combat game, how about looking for some light 2D effects? Here is a video of Valkyria Chronicles, the combination of strategy game and some anime essences from Sega. Personally I have found the water-color effects are really nice. Combining these effects with works of IWD artists could make a good 2D game on multi-platform, of course, without the anime/cartoon effects and silly voice acting. Some Japanese companies are still capable of making successful strategy/tactical games. So, why not do the same thing with more western tastes?

[Tigranes]

That engine never graced nothing...

 

That said, it does seem like there has been some serious uber optermisation tak' place with oldee electron

 

Well, I'm sure you'd agree that that's all we can really expect at this stage. And for me, with a lot of optimisation, electron is very playable (if possessing some ugly boils from the very beginning). NWN2 took as much computer processing power as the Matrix, MOTB improved it a lot.

 

Anyway, I usually don't take this kind of position, but I'm sort of happy that the buff-removal 'workaround' was used. Battles are way too easy in every incarnation of NWN, and it's a nice challenge. I guess if they could have, Obsidian would have implemented a similar system to IE engine games where there is actually a timer for the buffs while travelling, though.

 

Now if only I could get my bloody new laptop so I could play this thing.

[Amentep]

Interestingly enough I haven't noticed the buffs disappearing after a battle and return to the overland map, personally. Guess I don't pay enough attention to how long they should last.

[Lare Kikkeli]

I'm just dissapointed. So very dissapointed

 

Looks like the Aliens RPG or Dragon Age are the two next games to look forward to.

[Dark_Raven]

That's one smart dev there, real smart.

[Jaesun]

I finished it today. I had an absolute blast playing this! That final battle was tough, but interesting.

 

The most amusing thing is, there is one last Skill check at the end of the game (after you retire). I actually laughed my butt off when I saw it. heh

 

Now I might try my all Human Bard party run through.

[Tigranes]

I'm just dissapointed. So very dissapointed

 

What else is so disappointing about SoZ?

 

I'm not provoking, I just really want to know what people think about it.

[newc0253]

I'm just dissapointed. So very dissapointed

What else is so disappointing about SoZ?

the lack of ritalin.

 

after all, if i can't buff up on the overland map, then i become distracted and wander off.

[Nightshape]

"Effects are removed on the Overland Map since visual fx don't scale with the character size. Otherwise, giant walking bubbles would be striding across the land."

 

Uh, you have a coder yes?? A person who knows computer code yes???

I understand the complaint, but please tone down the attitude. You're aggressively arguing from the position of someone unfamiliar with the code base and trivializing things that aren't trivial. If it were as simple as MAINTAIN_BUFFS_BUT_REMOVE_VFX_ON_THE_GUY = TRUE, we would have done it. We're working with a code base that's approaching its tenth anniversary and has accumulated an enormous amount of content over NWN, SoU, HotU, NWN2, MotB, and now SoZ. Virtually anything could be accomplished or changed in a game given enough time, but it's not always a wise use of time. And often, the limitations of ancient engineering decisions are not immediately apparent when a new system (like the overland map) is being designed.

 

I know it's comfortable to assume that every feature is simple to implement and every bug is easy to fix, but that doesn't match the reality of the situation. NWN and NWN2 are driven by logic, data, and script. Visual effects can come from a wide variety of sources within those categories, and those effects often do not carry data with them that allows for easy sorting/categorization. That can make it difficult to suppress the visual effects you don't want but retain the visual effects you do want.

 

Here's an analogous NWN2 situation: when I came onto NWN2, I learned that stacking rules were not properly implemented in the engine. Some things were handled code-side, some were handled haphazardly in script, and most "by-the-book" stacking rules were totally ignored. That's why in NWN, SoU, and HotU, you could stack tons of ability score-modifying items together to get super high stats. There were so many items, game effects and script functions that used the various bonus effects that it would have been incredibly laborious to retrofit everything to follow the proper rules. We talked to WotC about it and they said they would rather have nothing stack than everything stack, and that was the most accurate D&D solution we could implement given the resources available. As a hack, Andy Woo put in an exception for Barbarian Rage, but it was the hackiest hack that every hacked.

 

D&D is really big. The Aurora code base is really big. The accumulated content of the games is huge. We do genuinely screw up here at Obsidian, but we're not a gang of drooling, lazy buffoons.

 

EDIT: As an addendum, this was something that several programmers have looked at, and there did not seem to be a "magic bullet" that did everything people would want/nothing they did not want. It's possible that could change in the future, but it comes down to available time for analysis and implementation.

 

I think people (fans and devs) need to take a moment to think about the effect of iterative effect of several prolonged period of crunching on a codebase. I would assume that obviously this is something that Obsidian are always working towards, in regards to damage mitigation.

 

See how many times does a programmer need to implement the "hackiest hack that every hacked", before general software entropy takes over causing numerious man hours to be spent fixing hacks.

 

From what I can see is that some "bad" design most likely took place at some point before Obsidian even got close to the code for NWN2, and 3 crunch periods, with some optimisation having likely taken place, at which point you're inheriting something which in places is extremely difficult to read. I find it unlikely that there would be regular one to one in person contact with Bioware even once a week, at best it was perhaps once a month.

 

I don't think Obsidian have screwed up so much as made the best of a pile of crap, and I've certainly felt that way about the Aurora experience for a long time. An engine that's trying to do waaaay too much developed initially at the time atleast by an unexperienced team, they'd shipped BG sure, but 3D and 2D engines ain't the same beast at all.

 

They even went so far as to write their own script parser, it's those sorts of decisions which were made that have an overall impact on the end result. I don't know if they even changed the parser or if they continued to work with it but they most certainly experienced alot of issues, writing a scripting parser isn't a small feat, doing it within the constraints of a games development cycle take dedicated experienced individuals. I don't doubt the guys at Bioware aren't dedicated and experienced, but all the same, few engines have implemented custom scripting languages... Unreal Script always springs to mind, but surely another solution such as lua or python is more desirable...

 

So in short, I don't blame you guys... You've done a sterling job in whipping up the old badger engine into something semi-efficiant.

[Nightshape]

Stupid double post.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Nightshape