Guard Dog Posted November 6, 2008 Posted November 6, 2008 One of my crazy friends called from Washington yesterday and talked to me for an hour. He swears that: a) Obama is the most liberal president voted into office of all time. b) That he will immediately socialize medicine. c) That the democrats will confiscate our houses on the grounds that they're fixing the mortgage problem. (haha, that would be my luck, since we don't even have a mortgage anymore and the house is paid off.) d) That Obama will raise taxes on anyone earning more than 60 grand a year. e) That anyone registered Republican will end up in gulags. a) Thats a little hard to say since he hasn't even take office yet. But even Obama would have to get up pretty early in the morning to outdo Woodrow Wilson or FDR. Those two are the reigning kings of the expansion of Federal power. b) Not a chance. Even if he wanted to. c) Tell your friend about the 4th Amendment d) Taxes are going up and it will be more than he promised on the campaign but I believe the biggest hits will be capital gains. For seome reason dems love to punish investments. e) Ohhh I hope they take me somewhere warm! That last one is my favorite. I'd bet Pop would like that one to be true. Before you all laugh too much there was a lot of post-election lunacy from some posters on this very board after Bush won in 2004. None of that trash happened either. As for calling him a socialist (something even I might have done) allow me to point out that almost all descriptions are comparative. He is not a text book socialist but compared to other US presidents and candidates he is closer than most. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Wrath of Dagon Posted November 6, 2008 Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) @Enoch It's a question of whether the redistribution of wealth is an end in itself. Of course any social program will involve redistribution of wealth, but that's not necessarily the ultimate goal. In other words you can try to help those in need, or you can try to make incomes more equal, which isn't quite the same thing. Edit: Let's not forget that Republicans apparently still have enough votes to filibuster in the Senate, which will probably at least prevent such anti-democratic, anti- free speech laws as card check, fairness doctrine, and socialistic stuff like a 15% income tax surcharge. Edited November 6, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Hiro Protagonist Posted November 6, 2008 Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) Hey, Europeans in this thread, what do you think about people calling Obama a socialist? I think Meshugger summed it up very well. My view is compared to the rest of the world, the left is actually more to the centre and the right is to the far right. Edited November 6, 2008 by Hiro Protagonist
mkreku Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Hey, Europeans in this thread, what do you think about people calling Obama a socialist? In Sweden, he's considered to be to the right of the "moderats", which is about as much right wing you can be in Sweden without resorting to nazi or other very questionable parties. That should tell you something about how left wing Sweden really is :D But Obama is still considered to be a hero in Sweden and the best choice of president the USA has ever made. We'll see about that, but I must admit that even I have high hopes for this guy. I've seen a lot of interviews with him and he seems very intelligent, verbal and reasonable. Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!
Calax Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Wow... Just Wow. Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.
Humodour Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Hey, Europeans in this thread, what do you think about people calling Obama a socialist? I don't live in America, but have European blood in me, so I'll answer: I think such people are very uninformed if they feel that progressive taxes or universal healthcare are socialism. If anything, dear old President Bush has made more steps towards socialism than any Democrat President I've heard of. I doubt such people have a clue what the terms 'proletariat' or 'means of production' mean. There are certain things people over here will not stand for, and those are: significantly weakening social welfare, significantly weakening healthcare, significantly weakening unions. John Howard tried the last one and he was promptly ejected from office. A reality check for those hardcore Republicans/Libertarians reading this post: Obama is not a leftie. He's centre-right on both social and economic issues. Perhaps you Republicans only see Obama as a leftie because you are so very far to the right.
Hiro Protagonist Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Next Season's Dancing with the Stars. Funky!
Kelverin Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Wow... Just Wow. J1 Visa Southern California Cleaning
Hiro Protagonist Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 think he meant 47 states, one left two go which would make 48. And then he says I couldnt go to hawaii and alaska which would be the missing two,.
Kelverin Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 think he meant 47 states, one left two go which would make 48. And then he says I couldnt go to hawaii and alaska which would be the missing two,. Keep telling yourself that J1 Visa Southern California Cleaning
WILL THE ALMIGHTY Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Wow... Just Wow. An error, nothing more. Palin on the other hand has prooved herself a total moron. "Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons. Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons. I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!"
Guard Dog Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Whoever you are.... where ever you are.... you must, MUST see this weeks South Park. Do it. You'll thank me. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Kelverin Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 (edited) Wow... Just Wow. An error, nothing more. About how many states there are? Are you ****ing kidding me? I don't care what your condition is there is no excuse for that error. The Palin bit was word of mouth no? Or do you have actual proof she did not know about Africa the continent? Edited November 7, 2008 by Kelverin J1 Visa Southern California Cleaning
J.E. Sawyer Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 As for calling him a socialist (something even I might have done) allow me to point out that almost all descriptions are comparative. He is not a text book socialist but compared to other US presidents and candidates he is closer than most. Pretty much all Democratic Party candidates in the primaries held a lot of similar views to Obama, so I don't really buy that. We have a Socialist Party in the U.S. They are socialists. Obama is a Democrat, with left-leaning capitalist policies. He is as socialist as McCain was libertarian. Which is to say, not really at all. They were both centrists within their own parties, which is (unsurprisingly) why they won their primaries. The spectrum of socialism is pretty broad in application, running from middle of the road/soft socialist European states to heavier socialist states like Sweden to "textbook" socialist states like Cuba or China. Obama's policies are pretty far away from those, and I think it's obnoxious to refer to him as a socialist because of it. His views and stances are pretty in line with the Democratic Party as a whole. twitter tyme
WILL THE ALMIGHTY Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Wow... Just Wow. An error, nothing more. About how many states there are? Are you ****ing kidding me? I don't care what your condition is there is no excuse for that error. The Palin bit was word of mouth no? Or do you have actual proof she did not know about Africa the continent? Oh I wasn't talking about the Africa thing. "Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons. Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons. I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!"
Strix Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Whoever you are.... where ever you are.... you must, MUST see this weeks South Park. Do it. You'll thank me. Will do...
Gorgon Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 There are just so many things you have to own in order to have any chance of becoming president, that no socialist is ever going to get there. Death Penalty, and broad unsubstantiated statements like 'socialized healthcare doesn't work', to name a few. Yes it works dumbass, Americans just don't want it. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all.
Gorgon Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Ohh, by the way they have Communists in Cuba and China. Socialism at gunpoint, not the best examples. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all.
Wrath of Dagon Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 The left wing of the Democratic party, which is to say most of them is trying to take us to European style "socialism", such as socialized medicine. It's not true that the centrist candidate usually wins the parties' nomination, it is party activists who are the most influential, and they're the more radical ones in both parties. This is a big part of the reason Obama won over Hillary, and this is why he won almost all caucuses, since those are the most dominated by party activists. McCain won because Romney and Huckaby split the conservative vote amonst them, leaving McCain a plurality. The fact that he was the only one pushing for the surge in Iraq also helped him in the Republican primary. As far as Obama himself, it's hard to predict what he'll actually do as president, as he seems to be more of an opportunist than an idealogue. He's already managed to take both sides of almost every issue. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Humodour Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 The left wing of the Democratic party, which is to say most of them is trying to take us to European style "socialism", such as socialized medicine. It's not true that the centrist candidate usually wins the parties' nomination, it is party activists who are the most influential, and they're the more radical ones in both parties. This is a big part of the reason Obama won over Hillary, and this is why he won almost all caucuses, since those are the most dominated by party activists. McCain won because Romney and Huckaby split the conservative vote amonst them, leaving McCain a plurality. The fact that he was the only one pushing for the surge in Iraq also helped him in the Republican primary. As far as Obama himself, it's hard to predict what he'll actually do as president, as he seems to be more of an opportunist than an idealogue. He's already managed to take both sides of almost every issue. Actually, I'm very inclined to agree with Josh Sawyer's assessment of primary politics. Which is to say: you're clueless.
J.E. Sawyer Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Kucinich is waaaaaaay more left than either H-Rod or Obama. Like, by a lot. I suppose it's possible that with only Romney/Huckabee to run against, McCain may have fared more poorly. I also think that either Romney or Huckabee would have done more poorly in the general election because they are "more right". A lot of conservatives did not like McCain being the Rep candidate, but voted for him anyway. It's a lot easier for a moderate voter to swing to the other side if they don't like a candidate. e: I'll also argue that while Palin frequently showed higher rally numbers than McCain, I ultimately believe that Palin lost McCain a lot more moderate votes than she gained from PUMAs. Increasing fanatic rally numbers among those likely to go to rallies doesn't necessarily translate to more votes from people who are unlikely to go to rallies (non-fanatics). I believe Palin mobilized a very enthusiastic sub-section of conservatives and turned off a lot of moderate voters. twitter tyme
Humodour Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 Just remember: McCain lost the election because he wasn't right-wing enough. Palin 2012!
Aristes Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 As a conservative, I will say that I was not happy with the Palin decision. I mostly didn't care, but I was not happy about it. I think it's important for a president to have the capacity to communicate. One of the reasons that Obama has become and remained so popular among our friends around the world is that he is able to articulate broad ideas. I don't think he's got a grand vision, but he does have a vision that he conveys grandly. That's a plus. No matter what else, he must be able to communicate plans and policies to the American people. I agree with Guard Dog and Wrath of Whatzits, though. Meaning is best derived from use, and socialism in this country is a term that reflects a broad spectrum of ideas. However, for the sake of clarity, we should agree to use the classical definition for it. Either that or use Marxism or some such so we can differentiate. Finally, I don't think Obama is a hard lefty. He truly is an opportunist. That's not necessarily a bad thing. If Obama's start rising equates to an increase in our fortunes, then I'm happy to put him squarely in the middle of the sky. This is my biggest beef with people. If their guy loses, they'd rather see the country spiral downward to prove them right than be proved wrong by increased prosperity.
taks Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 the world likes him because he more closely follows their leftist ideology than mccain, or bush, or any other conservative politician in the US. they wanted billary again, or kerry, or gore... see a pattern here? socialism is just another form of statism/collectivism and any "middle ground" between socialism and capitalism is still statism, no matter how the world wants to spin it or "compare" one guy's socialist ideas with another's. it's all still statist as long as the philosophy advocates spreading the wealth, rather than increasing overall wealth. btw, it seems too, that all these judgements about obama are being made based on what his campaign is claiming, not what he really thinks, which can be derived from his statements prior to the campaign... he's a socialist, he just has to work within a system that doesn't tolerate use of that word. taks comrade taks... just because.
Humodour Posted November 7, 2008 Posted November 7, 2008 As a conservative, I will say that I was not happy with the Palin decision. I mostly didn't care, but I was not happy about it. I think it's important for a president to have the capacity to communicate. One of the reasons that Obama has become and remained so popular among our friends around the world is that he is able to articulate broad ideas. I don't think he's got a grand vision, but he does have a vision that he conveys grandly. That's a plus. No matter what else, he must be able to communicate plans and policies to the American people. I agree with Guard Dog and Wrath of Whatzits, though. Meaning is best derived from use, and socialism in this country is a term that reflects a broad spectrum of ideas. However, for the sake of clarity, we should agree to use the classical definition for it. Either that or use Marxism or some such so we can differentiate. Finally, I don't think Obama is a hard lefty. He truly is an opportunist. That's not necessarily a bad thing. If Obama's start rising equates to an increase in our fortunes, then I'm happy to put him squarely in the middle of the sky. This is my biggest beef with people. If their guy loses, they'd rather see the country spiral downward to prove them right than be proved wrong by increased prosperity. You're a traitor to your own party. It's people like you that are tearing this country apart; pandering to the liberal media elites. Vote for the Palin-Romney ticket in 2012!
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