Books

[Aristes]

I'm reading Ender in Exile. Orson Scott Card has real talent. He's created a variety of wonderful settings. However, I can't help but feel that he's completely plundered the Ender universe. ...and some of the ideas he's had have been good, don't get me wrong. It's just that the property is way past its prime. I'm have a hard time moving through the book right now. I also think that he's bought too much into the notion of interweaving multiple story lines. I think it dilutes the reader's investment in any particular character. I'm not talking between books, either. Specifically, Ender in Exile strikes me almost like many vignettes thrown together with a backdrop rather than one coherent storyline. Still interesting. He's a bit sentimental, I guess that's emo to you youngsters, but that doesn't bother me. As long as I don't feel like hurling because of syrupy sweet dialogue, it's not so bad.

[Trenitay]

Which book comes after Ender's Game? Thats the only one I've read and I haven't been able to get a copy of whatever the second book is.

[Calax]

Which book comes after Ender's Game? Thats the only one I've read and I haven't been able to get a copy of whatever the second book is.

I think it's "Speaker for the dead".

 

This is just me but After enders game Card SLAMS on the breaks. All the books afterwords were slower than molasses trying to move uphill in freezing temperatures, he ressurected that a bit with the Bean books but I got frustrated with his heavy handed religious crap.

[Hurlshort]

Ender's Game is followed by Speaker for the Dead and Xenosaga, I think. I enjoyed Speaker for the dead, but Xenosaga disn't pull me in at all. He also gets more religious as his storylines progress.

 

Ender's Shadow is an alternate storyline that takes place after Ender's Game (sort of, lots of flashbacks), focused around the little kid in his squad. I really enjoyed it. I think there were more in this vein, but I haven't read them.

[Tigranes]

Ender's Game was a very entertaining read, if quite anime-y. The next 2 books are pretty different, a lot more to do with alien civilisations and religion. I read them just because I wanted a bit more Ender after the first book, but otherwise, they're not especially remarkable. I did think that Card handled a relatively original concept very well though - i.e. of actually being a powerful and independent explorer. Most stories focus on when you are developing (like Game), or part of some major conflict - in these books Ender is basically done with all that and doing the kind of stuff that you normally hear of in game/story endings. That was nice to see.

 

Wasn't aware there were other books out there, but I imagine they would get pretty 'plundered', as Aristes says.

[Calax]

Card is a Mormon. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but when you look at his tales after Game you can see that all of his characters develop Mormon values. And at least one of his other books is simply Mormon propaganda (Folk of the Fringe, I am not kidding. I read the first chapter, It has a guy with an abusive past helping a group of Mormons across a post-apocalyptic US to Utah because the Mormons will have the only intact civilization.)

[Aristes]

I don't see why any of that is an issue, Calax. He's a Mormon. The idea that he should somehow remove the influences of his past from his writing simply isn't reasonable. If you wrote a novel, I'm sure you would include something of your own values in the story. I'm sure you couldn't help it. If your characters have a disdain for religion in a story in which the religious people destroy each other while a small community of atheists managed to survive and thrive amidst the chaos and mayhem, no one need second guess you. Some religious people might not read your novel, which is there right. It is your right to pass on Card's books.

 

As a Roman Catholic, I will say that Card is not hostile to other religions in general. I think he is less accepting of atheism. Sure. However, I haven't seen him outright attack atheism in the same way, say, the Golden Compass attacks organized religion. You don't see me railing against the Golden Compass. Why should I? Start a story. Read a story. If you like it, read some more. If you don't, stop.

 

You can go on a multi-paragraph rant, if you want, and I generally read your posts beginning to end, dude, but I think you're taking more offense at his books than they deserve.

 

I think he has a fine talent, and he has all sorts of books and I've read quite a few of them, but his fixation on religion tends to be fairly sociological. Yes, he's preachy. It's not like that's new of literature in any age. He has some real insight into human nature. Atheists and religious folks can both have real insight into humanity. Folks from one side or the other who believe otherwise are simply fooling themselves.

 

His biggest crime, in my opinion is that he has plundered his own setting to the point that I simply don't buy his books any more. I do read books I get as gifts, generally speaking, because I'm pretty much willing to try new things, especially music, literature, and cinema. However, I don't recommend Ender in Exile to anyone. It's written after the fact and tries to plug the holes in areas where we, as fans, have already suspended our disbelief.

 

I'll probably start on that One Million A.D. book after I'm done with Ender in Exile. That doesn't look like my cup of tea either, but you never know.

[Tigranes]

If he is clearly promoting Mormon values in his novels, that is not necessarily wrong, it's just something interesting to know about. Which I think Calax was getting at.

[Aristes]

I think it's trivial to accuse his book of being "Mormon propaganda." *shrug* His stories are well written, if a bit sentimental, and do well commercially. If you think that's entirely because of the Mormon population, fine by me. Personally, I think it's a silly and easy attack to accuse a book as being propaganda just because it shows one group or another in a better light. It's a shallow sort of criticism. Doesn't hurt me personally.

[Calax]

I think he has a fine talent, and he has all sorts of books and I've read quite a few of them, but his fixation on religion tends to be fairly sociological. Yes, he's preachy. It's not like that's new of literature in any age. He has some real insight into human nature. Atheists and religious folks can both have real insight into humanity. Folks from one side or the other who believe otherwise are simply fooling themselves.

 

His biggest crime, in my opinion is that he has plundered his own setting to the point that I simply don't buy his books any more. I do read books I get as gifts, generally speaking, because I'm pretty much willing to try new things, especially music, literature, and cinema. However, I don't recommend Ender in Exile to anyone. It's written after the fact and tries to plug the holes in areas where we, as fans, have already suspended our disbelief.

 

I'll probably start on that One Million A.D. book after I'm done with Ender in Exile. That doesn't look like my cup of tea either, but you never know.

These two paragraphs are really more to my feeling. The only reason I mentioned Folk of the Fringe is because I disliked it so much because of the HEAVY HANDED preaching about Mormonism being so wonderful and accepting of others and yadda yadda yadda. He does have some insights into the human condition, but at least in Folk the propaganda was so bad that I couldn't bear to read past the first chapter.

 

Enders Game was great, the later two were much much different to the point where I think somebody who liked enders game (which actually broke down recruiting and training in a similar way, I think, as Starship Troopers) would be bored to tears with the other two because there was 0 action. The other two are written so differently about the only thing that the three share is the universe and characters, beyond that they are utterly different books. Enders Shadow (the first bean story) I was ambivalent to, it had the action and pacing of Enders Game, but it also started to get preachy. Shadow of the Hegemon turned me off from the rest of the series because it just got WAYYY too preachy for my tastes, it also changed how Bean worked, literally one minute he's destroying fertalized embryos because they have a genetic trigger that he didn't want active, the next he practically starts a war when he figures out that the embryos that he thought were destroyed were in somebody else hands and he wanted to protect them from harm (at least that was the lasting impression I got from it 5ish years ago).

 

My point is this, Card was and probably still is something of a good writer, but I think he started to let his religion get in the way of his writing and change his characters. IMHO If you write a story, keep the characters personalities from changing drastically, yes you can change the character as they grow and mature as the characters, but don't transplant religious values one somebody who either doesn't ascribe to the religion, or has no connection to the religion.

 

Probably the worst religious transplant I've ever seen was in a star wars book (Truce at Bakura), the writer (admittely not having much to go on) has Vader appear to LEIA and ask for forgiveness for his past sins. Now I can understand that Vader at the time of writing was somewhat of a blank slate, but having him go to the child he only new existed (not who she was) and ask that he be forgiven for his sins was a little heavy handed, and IMHO out of character for Anakin, particularly in retrospect given what we know from the prequels.

 

As to me personally, I dislike preachy books. I dislike religion because generally it is found impeding progress, and for what it can do to people (not seek medical help for a dying child, that sort of thing). I have nothing against the practitioners, more against the idea that an establishment can decide weather or not your soul is safe. I figure, when all is said and done, we grasp our own destiny and determine where we go based on our own concept of what's happening. oye... I went alot longer than I thought I was going to.

 

Edit because two posts were made while composing this one.

 

I think that any book that elevates one group by saying they are all saints is extremely shallow. Folk of the Fringe (I have admitted I didn't get very far) seemed to elevate all Mormons to the point where they could do no wrong, and were the average "good" race in traditional Fantasy. I've not read a Forgotten Realms, or other DnD based tale in years primarily because the average hero in those novels isn't usually showing human failings (or rather, mortal failings), for example the Infamous Drizzt Do'Urden is the best warrior in the realms, and yet I get the funky feeling he's still a virgin. Admittedly most fantasy books are aimed at a younger demographic, but even the godfather of modern fantasy (LOTR) doesn't mention that Humans have more primal desires than your standard generic power. None of the heroes in LotR acts like a noble in medieval Europe would. I'm not saying that heroes should hook up with prostitutes every single time they get in town, but I think that's what draws people to the Song of Ice and Fire. It's probably the most popular tale about Regular humans, they have base desires, they're greedy, the Nobles act like their real life counterparts, politics actually occur. Your standard fantasy novel's idea of politics is that the evil Vizard or Chamberlain is making sure the kind and good king of GoodTown doesn't see that his people are actually in peril, and thus it's left to the selected rag tag group of adventurers to save the day, and usually in a Scooby Doo ending figure out that the Vizard/Chamerlain was evil.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Calax

[Aristes]

That's okay. A pleasure to read. Maybe I'm being too irritated, and so we clash heads. Anyhow, it's not like I didn't know how you feel about religion. After all, I figured "There cannot be free will unless we kill god" was probably meant to convey something. Oh well, we both ranted a bit. No harm, no foul.

[Walsingham]

I don't see why or even how a writer could exclude their religion from their writing. Look at The Hobbit, where Tolkein clearly shows us his cake and pie-based upbringing.

 

I've been reading Dune: House Harkonnen. I was expecting it to be completely awful. While it lacks the subtler genius of Herbert it's pretty good. Defintely worth the time to read it.

[Calax]

I don't see why or even how a writer could exclude their religion from their writing. Look at The Hobbit, where Tolkein clearly shows us his cake and pie-based upbringing.

 

I've been reading Dune: House Harkonnen. I was expecting it to be completely awful. While it lacks the subtler genius of Herbert it's pretty good. Defintely worth the time to read it.

I wasn't trying to say they should exclude it, but at least make the characters who believe it be consistent. In Enders Shadow it seemed like half way through the plot Card said "Oh wait, that's not my value system!" and promptly changed the main characters values. I also don't like heavy handed "My faith is the one TRUE faith!" books, where one religion (real, I'm willing to ignore fake religions... if you understand me) is elevated as the pinnacle of spiritual triumph. I know Tom Clancy has been accused of being a born again christian and changing his works to suit that, but I didn't really notice it. In the Ender series, it seemed like a lot of the moral values and structure were based around Mormon versions. Yes he did have good insights into humanity (for example, in Speaker he notes that Town's and their sibilings are designed specifically so that women can have a safe place while they are pregnant), but he starts to get heavy handed in his handling of his characters.

 

The best way to integrate your love of religion into a book or other medium is not to make it seem like this particular faith is better than any others, or have stuff like all members of faith X survive the apocalypse because their god is the real god, instead simply have the characters live like you would in their situation. Let them have flaws and deal with those flaws, show that they're using their faith to be better people. I'm not saying that they somehow become Metatron and wipe the floor with gods enemies, but rather have them do stuff like help out at their church based soup kitchen, or do disaster relief through the church. Don't simply segregate the population to the "Chosen" and the unbelievers and have the unbelievers society fall into chaos while the "Chosen" maintain the way of life that we know today.

 

In what we now term fantasy it is really easy to have heavy handed preaching via the story. Usually in order not to anger people the standard is to call the religion something very benign and have the primary idol/god-figure be female. Because (at least in english speaking countries) your average person ascribes to the same BASIC religion, one god, don't make false idols, seven sins, yadda yadda. Where Catholics and Protestants disconnect is how you worship and exactly how tightly you should follow the "Word of God". Most of the Religions in fantasy novels generally revolve around the same basic structure that we all know and are a part of in the west, One omniscient being who likes the value system that is set down in the Western Bible.

 

... I forgot where I was going...

 

anyway, just a side not on religion: I'm not at odds with most of religion and religious values, what I'm at odds with is usually the practitioners and sometimes the leadership of the religions. Churches seem to be the only place where the public at large goes to be Altruistic, I don't know if they figure they can make up for being selfish bastards on that one day of the week but still. Through churches I've rebuilt homes destroyed by Katrina, I wouldn't have gotten the chances to do that without being attached to a church. What I do hate is that the Churches incentive system is simply "Be good or fry for eternity!" Also it's what religion sometimes does to people, Zealotry. I mean at what point does it seem like following the word of god also means that you toss the first commandment out the window? I don't know, I guess what I hate is the system, not the underlying tennants....

 

We need a religion thread.

[Walsingham]

Sorry, Calax. I was being an arse. I kind of knew what you meant but jumped the wrong way. I know there are books which are basically god fanfiction. They suck, as does all fanfiction.

[Hurlshort]

I just don't think Card is all that good when he isn't writing action stuff.

 

Stephen R. Lawhead puts an incredible amount of religion into his fantasy/scifi stuff, but I always enjoyed reading it. He keeps it interesting and works it into the plots in a natural way. At least that was always my impression.

[Guard Dog]

This is bumped to the top of my "Must Read" list: http://www.amazon.com/Agincourt-Novel-Bern...1420&sr=1-1

[Hurlshort]

This is bumped to the top of my "Must Read" list: http://www.amazon.com/Agincourt-Novel-Bern...1420&sr=1-1

 

Sweeeeeeet.

 

Oddly enough, I started reading Cornwell's series on the Civil War, and I really don't like it. I got through the first book, but it was hard and I stalled in the second book. I think it's just the subject matter. It's hard for me to sympathize too much with a Southern soldier in the civil war, especially one who is actually a northerner and isn't really defending his own land. I think I'm far enough removed from Saxons and Britons to not be disturbed by it, I suppose.

 

I've read almost every other book by Cornwell and loved them (Sharpe series, Holy Grail quest, King Arthur story, Gallows Thief, and Alfred the Great) so it was a bit surprising. I might try his revolutionary war book.

[Guard Dog]

Now reading The Tenderness of Wolves by Stef Penny. Really, really excellent writing. It is very reminicent of Jack London who (along with Twain, Kipling, and Clavell) is my favorite author of all time.

 

@Hurlshot, Agincourt is next for me. I'll let you know how it is.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Guard Dog

[Musopticon?]

Williamson's Darker than you think is a great modern werewolf book which anyone interested should get and read right now.

 

Just saying.

[Pushtrak]

I've been reading Dune: House Harkonnen. I was expecting it to be completely awful. While it lacks the subtler genius of Herbert it's pretty good. Defintely worth the time to read it.

Woah woah... The real Dune books are the ones penned by Frank. But, in terms of the ones by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson, the Prelude series are the best they have done. Oh, and it goes House Atreides, House Harkonnen, House Corrino. Were you expecting less from Harkonnen after reading Atreides or did you miss it?

 

I have Paul of Dune here, but I am not enthusiastic about reading it. I really, really didn't like Sandworms of Dune. Heretics was bad enough, but Sandworms... Wow. If you have a real love of what was done in the Dune Originals, you may find it spits on the face of them.

 

I did love the series that Kevin J Anderson did, Saga of Seven Suns. It kept getting better book to book.

 

I have so many books here that I need to get around to. A number of Dawkins ones, Grisham ones, Patterson, Stephen King... I haven't even started a book in about a week because I don't know where to go next.

[Monte Carlo]

The Eagle Has Landed by Jack Higgins.

 

Again.

 

I've read it probably twenty times* because it's one of the best thrillers ever written. I love everything about it, even the bad bits.

 

Did I mention how good The Eagle Has Landed is, by the way?

 

CAVEAT: This certainly doesn't apply to the sequel, The Eagle Has Flown. Why Jack, WHY???

 

Am studying for some professional exams (ergo I'm goofing around posting here) so am not reading as much as I usually do.

 

Cheers

MC

 

* Actually, now I think about it, you could double that.

[Calax]

Restarted the Black Company again. I'd suggest you read this and others of Cooks books if you like "A Song of Ice and Fire". Cook's books aren't concerned as much with how the heads of state (and their families) are doing, but follows a company of mercs around and tells the tale from a foot soldiers view (a physician **** analyst named Croaker).

 

Now I posted earlier (when I was reading "A fortress in shadow") that this book is VERY adult. I'm gonna say the darkest/most adult portion of the book in spoiler tags so that the kiddies don't have to read it, but they probably will because they're idiots.

 

Anyway, the book has a lot of gallows humor and does a very good job at portraying the amount of power within a sorcerer who's supposed to be powerful. One of the most innocent and well developed characters I've ever seen in a Fantasy book appears here, her first appearance is

getting gang raped by about 12 guys who are laughing and egging their buddies on, and her grandfather is made to watch... she's Deaf and Mute and only 12 when this happens

. Yes the bad guys in that scenario do get their karma to bite them, but one of the things about this book is that most of the time the Company is WORKING for the Bad Guys.

 

Anyway, read the review and try it yourself. You'll probably love it.

[Hurlshort]

I just finished Conn Iggulden's Ghengis Khan book. It is a fantastic read, I look forward to picking up more of his work. I've read a few different variations on Temujin's life, as well as watched the recent movie, and despite the differences, it is always a fantastic story.

 

I'll probably pick up his Roman series, historical fiction is the best.

[Musopticon?]

I've read all of the Ceaser series and it's a blast. His only problem is holding all the threads in his hands, his last two books were rather rushed.

 

I don't know why, but the Conqueror series has yet to pick me up.

 

 

Right now Im slowly going through the Malazan series and it's damned great.

[Guard Dog]

Just finished Odd Man Out by Matt McCarthy. If you are a baseball fan you should give it a look, it's a great read. It's a memoir of a low drafted minor leauge pitcher.

 

Now reading Shadow Country by Peter Mathissen and Ferve Dream by George RR Martin. Is it just me or are there just no original ideas left in Fantasy/Sci Fi these days? Browsing on Amazon is like shifting through a bucket garbage trying to find one good thing.