BREAKING NEWS: NEW EXCLUSIVE FALLOUT 3 TRAILER

[Pop]

Looks pretty alright, all things considered.

[Atom523]

[quote name='H

[Tigranes]

It's quite eerie how Olivion seems to have mentally scarred everyone who didn't like it so that they see it in places where it actually isn't

 

I had fun with Oblivion. I put 60 hours into the first playthrough and finished basically everything. But after that, I don't want to see ghosts of Oblivion everywhere... nor should I be able to. And for someone who has put that many hours into Oblivion, it's not 'seeing what's not there' and making nonexistent connections... its in the UI, the passport angle (HK: the way they stare at you dead centre with their shoulders locked, like you're looking at them in a modeler program), the stilted/crap animations, the way other stuff moves when you pick up one thing, etc.

 

Pretty sure most Oblivion fans would get lots of deja vus.

 

edit: Oh, and mkreku is here, so disclaimer (): I don't think Oblivion with Guns is bad because Oblivion is a piece of crap (as I said, I enjoyed it despite its flaws and recognise its good points), or because it destroys Fallout canon or whatnot (it does, I think, but I only have a partial allegiance to Fallout canon). Disregarding both of those popular arguments, I just think they could have done more to differentiate and develop the game in the last 3-4 years. I just think that if I play this game I'll probably have a decent amount of fun, but be confronted everywhere by the fact that I'm playing a postapoclayptic Oblivion in gameplay terms, like some sort of bizarro superexpansion, and get a stale feeling.

[Slowtrain]

I think the larger issue is that the same core team has done both MW and Oblivion. Some changes occured between the 2 games, but for the most part the core design philosphy of the team seemed pretty consistent. Its reasonable to expect some change between Fallout 3 and Oblivion, but its more likely than not the same design philosophies that guided MW and Oblivion will guide Fallout 3 as well.

 

We know, for example, that the implementation of level scaling has been changed to some degree, at least as far as enemies leveling goes, but despite all the complaints and mods that Obilivion's level scaling caused, it is still in the game. This despite the fact that Fallout 1 and 2 had no level scaling whatsoever. So, whereas level scaling might be expected in ES 5, despite the problems it caused in Oblivion, simply because ES 5 would be part of the Elder Scrolls lineage and ES games have always had some sort of level scaling, there's no real defensible reason for it be in FO 3. Other than: This is Bethesda and This is the Way We Make CRPGS. We Use Level Scaling. Period. Regardless.

 

If that kind of boilerplate approach to crpg design carries over too much into FO 3 then it is going to make a pretty disappointing game for those of us who disliked Oblivion and Morrowind.

 

Right now, I think it is pretty safe to say that if you enjoyed Oblivion, you are very likely to enjoy Fallout 3. But if you didn't like Oblivion, well, then who knows.

[Volourn]

"So much for the promised moral ambiguity."

 

L0LZ FO wa smostly black and white. Nice try, though. As above, the vast majority of characetrrs in FO were black and white. That espicially includes the Master.

[Hurlshort]

I can agree that if you hated Oblivion, you probably will dislike Bethesda's Fallout. It makes sense, the ES series is their crown jewel and it's been successful for them, so of course they aren't going to totally abandon their design philosophy for a new title. I'm just very hopeful that they will fix the more glaring issues that Oblivion had.

 

Really, it's all about the story for me. If they can create an intriguing plot, then I'll be ecstatic. If they can't, then I'll still probably enjoy running around exploring the game world. So I figure I have a high chance of liking Fallout 3, a small chance of loving it, and a minisule chance of hating it. No problem.

[Dark_Raven]

"So much for the promised moral ambiguity."

 

L0LZ FO wa smostly black and white. Nice try, though. As above, the vast majority of characetrrs in FO were black and white. That espicially includes the Master.

Nah. The Master was awesome.

[Slowtrain]

"So much for the promised moral ambiguity."

 

L0LZ FO wa smostly black and white. Nice try, though. As above, the vast majority of characetrrs in FO were black and white. That espicially includes the Master.

 

 

Hmm. I would say off hand that I think FO did a pretty good job of portraying a world that was more shades of gray when it was time to define a moral "right" and a moral "wrong". ARcanum did as well. And The WItcher. I'm sure there are others which I am not thinking about of at the moment.

 

I think Oblivion tried to do it, but ultimately failed because nothing you did felt like it had much meaning either for good or for bad or anything in between in the gameworld.

 

I'm sure Fallout 3 will try as well. I think a big part of it success at achieving this will be a) how well this "karma" concept that Bethesda is implenenting works and b) how strong the consequences of good and bad actions will be.

 

Bethesda's designers have seemed to have ongoing difficulties with this across their ES games, but perhaps they will be able to make it work this time.

[Tigranes]

We know, for example, that the implementation of level scaling has been changed to some degree, at least as far as enemies leveling goes, but despite all the complaints and mods that Obilivion's level scaling caused, it is still in the game.

 

I think the way they fixed it is potentially even worse. If it sets the area level in proportion to the character level when you first etner it, and it 'sticks' for the entire game, then you could ruin the game's challenge for yourself by wandering too freely - which is directly against the entire point of Fallout and TES games! The irony is staggering. When an interviewer during E3 (might be wrong) asked Todd, what happens if you just run through many areas at level 1, does that mean those enemies, being 'Very Hard', might be set at level 10 or so, for the rest of the game? Todd just laughed uneasily and evaded the question. We won't know until the game ships, but all signs point to another clumsy, messy level system waiting to be broken by even honest players. We might even see online fan guides on what order to play the game and visit the areas so that you don't ruin the level system - which, again, screws with the whole point of TES/FO games.

 

I can agree that if you hated Oblivion, you probably will dislike Bethesda's Fallout. It makes sense, the ES series is their crown jewel and it's been successful for them, so of course they aren't going to totally abandon their design philosophy for a new title. I'm just very hopeful that they will fix the more glaring issues that Oblivion had.

 

I agree that the (practical) truth in general is neither "OBLIVION AWESOME = FO3 AWESOME" (I'm looking at you Tom Chick et al) nor "Sounds like Oblivion, SUX". But we know at least that the crap stilted animations remain; level scaling has changed but is still likely broken; we are waiting to see if dialogue/main plot has improved.

 

I think Oblivion tried to do it, but ultimately failed because nothing you did felt like it had much meaning either for good or for bad or anything in between in the gameworld.

 

The difference I think is that Oblivion is a world with very clear 'good' and 'evil', but its practitioners were prone to failure or error; so you still ended up with a very classic fantasy B&W world, just with 'twisty' characters. With Fallout, as a whole, you have a world which itself has no clarity on good and evil, right and wrong. In oblivion you already know, mostly, what good & evil is, you just have to work out WHO is good/evil; in Fallout, you run into occasions when nobody really knows what's the right thing to do, never mind relying on someone to actually do it.

[Slowtrain]

When an interviewer during E3 (might be wrong) asked Todd, what happens if you just run through many areas at level 1, does that mean those enemies, being 'Very Hard', might be set at level 10 or so, for the rest of the game? Todd just laughed uneasily and evaded the question. We won't know until the game ships, but all signs point to another clumsy, messy level system waiting to be broken by even honest players. We might even see online fan guides on what order to play the game and visit the areas so that you don't ruin the level system - which, again, screws with the whole point of TES/FO games.

 

 

Very true. There have already been, for some time, posts on the Fallout forums, talking about this exact methodology as a way to play the game.

 

 

The thing is, if level scaling had been an unqualified success in Oblivion then one could certainly understand Bethesda including it in Fallout 3. But level scaling was such a dismal failure in Oblivion from almost all possible angles that it almost boggles the mind that they would be putting it into FO3 which is a game that has no history of level scaling. If the game franchise has no history of something that doesn't seem to work, why bother adding that thing at all?

 

To me, such an act greatly supports people's fears that FO 3 is going to be just like Oblivion since it seems to indicate that Bethesda has no interesting in tailoring their design philosophy to a specific game but instead changes the game to meet their design philosphy.

 

WHich of course is great, if you think their design philosphy makes for a fun game.

 

 

The difference I think is that Oblivion is a world with very clear 'good' and 'evil', but its practitioners were prone to failure or error; so you still ended up with a very classic fantasy B&W world, just with 'twisty' characters. With Fallout, as a whole, you have a world which itself has no clarity on good and evil, right and wrong. In oblivion you already know, mostly, what good & evil is, you just have to work out WHO is good/evil; in Fallout, you run into occasions when nobody really knows what's the right thing to do, never mind relying on someone to actually do it.

 

 

 

The thing is, with Oblivion, I never get any sense that there is really any good or bad in the game. Even the Dark Brotherhood and its questline doesn't feel "evil" or "bad" or really like much of anything at all; it just feels like something else to do because its there.

 

This is my biggest problem with Oblivion: playing the game just feels so dang pointless. Every time my pc does something, I ask myself: Why did I do that? DOes this matter? Does anybody care? Nothing has any risk; nothing has any reward; nothing has any consequence or significance, everything is leveled, there's a little red compass to point the way, skills are meaningless, leveling is pointless.

 

Really Oblivion just seems an exercise in doing things for no reason except they are there. I've never experienced a game that left me feeling so unrewarded for my actions or decisions.

 

Maybe FO3 will be different.

Edited August 18, 2008 by CrashGirl

[Jaesun]

This is my biggest problem with Oblivion: playing the game just feels so dang pointless. Every time my pc does something, I ask myself: Why did I do that? DOes this matter? Does anybody care? Nothing has any risk; nothing has any reward; nothing has any consequence or significance, everything is leveled, there's a little red compass to point the way, skills are meaningless, leveling is pointless.

 

Yes.

 

Really Oblivion just seems an exercise in doing things for no reason except they are there. I've never experienced a game that left me feeling so unrewarded for my actions or decisions.

 

Yes.

 

Maybe FO3 will be different.

 

Fallout 3 is Oblivion with guns. Nope, sorry.

[Hell Kitty]

I had fun with Oblivion. I put 60 hours into the first playthrough and finished basically everything. But after that, I don't want to see ghosts of Oblivion everywhere... nor should I be able to. And for someone who has put that many hours into Oblivion, it's not 'seeing what's not there' and making nonexistent connections... its in the UI, the passport angle (HK: the way they stare at you dead centre with their shoulders locked, like you're looking at them in a modeler program), the stilted/crap animations, the way other stuff moves when you pick up one thing, etc.

 

I dunno, I think wanting Fallout 3 to feel nothing like / not remind you of Oblivion is like wanting the same from the IWD series after playing the BG series.

[Slowtrain]

But IWD felt nothing like BG in terms of the world and gameplay. Depsite using the same engine and art assets, it played and felt like a completely different game. SO much so that while I only played through BG most of the way once or twice to moderate amusement, I played through IWD quite a few times and really had a lot of fun.

 

I would expect ES 5 to feel like ES 4 with some minor changes. I don't think anybody should have to expect FO3 to feel like Oblivion.

 

In truth, it shouldn't feel at all like Oblivion, since it is a completely different, almost polar opposite gameworld.

[Tigranes]

IWD was definitely reminiscent of BG, but not only did it use the same engine, it deliberately aimed for a similar gameplay experience, and was set in the exact same world, so there was no problem with that, either. If Fallout 3 was set in some other part of the elder scrolls world there wouldn't be much of an issue. But it's an entirely different setting in almost every imaginable way, and what's more, a history of very different games.

 

For example, if we developed IWD3 using the ME engine, could you blame people for not wanting it to feel just like Mass Effect?

 

The thing is, if level scaling had been an unqualified success in Oblivion then one could certainly understand Bethesda including it in Fallout 3. But level scaling was such a dismal failure in Oblivion from almost all possible angles that it almost boggles the mind that they would be putting it into FO3 which is a game that has no history of level scaling. If the game franchise has no history of something that doesn't seem to work, why bother adding that thing at all?

 

I get the impression that the Bethesda devs honestly think there is potential / value in the level scaling system. I'm not sure of course, but that's the impression I get.

 

The thing is, with Oblivion, I never get any sense that there is really any good or bad in the game. Even the Dark Brotherhood and its questline doesn't feel "evil" or "bad" or really like much of anything at all; it just feels like something else to do because its there.

 

I was talking more about the main quest - where you have big demons and Diablo-like gates screaming WE R EVIL at you. Imagine if the Super Mutants vs. Brotherhood of Steel in FO3 adopted the same kind of symbols/discourse. I'd feel like I was in a bad American movie.

[Hell Kitty]

Well on one hand I have CrashGirl saying IWD felt nothing like BG and on the other I have Tigranes saying it did feel the same. But who is correct? Is Tigranes seeing things that aren't there or is CrashGirl missing things that are?

 

Personally, I expect F3 to feel like a Bethesda game.

[Slowtrain]

Personally, I expect F3 to feel like a Bethesda game.

 

 

Me, too. Which from my perspective is a total bummer.

 

 

Edit: My HOPE, however, is that between all the criticism that Bethesda receieved on Oblivion and the fact the Fallout is a different IP there be enough push for Bethesda to make a game that isn't quite as "Bethesda-like" as past games. In other words, I hope they will eveolve and change rather than simply continuing to push extactly the ame vision they have for the last 5 years.

 

I believe such an evolution could possibly happen in at least enough small ways to make me enjoy Fallout 3; I wouldn't bet any money on it however.

Edited August 18, 2008 by CrashGirl

[Tigranes]

Well on one hand I have CrashGirl saying IWD felt nothing like BG and on the other I have Tigranes saying it did feel the same. But who is correct? Is Tigranes seeing things that aren't there or is CrashGirl missing things that are?

 

Slam dunk!

 

Fair enough, we'll have to wait and see just how widespread the 'deja vu Oblivion's will be/won't be.

[Jorian Drake]

Hear ye, hear ye!

 

 

I hijack this thread for some secret photos of FO3. If you didn't see them yet, enjoy

 

 

http://www.cng4u.com/2008/08/16/fallout-3-scans/

Edited August 20, 2008 by Jorian Drake

[Tigranes]

Yeah, those made the rounds on NMA a few days ago - although this one seems 'comprehensive'.

 

Cool to see them really go round the world.

[random n00b]

Nice find.

 

Thoughts:

 

• Graphics don't look so hot, especially character models. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, I do realize that's the 360 version.
  
• Dialogue seems uninspired at best.
  
• The whole infant business seems interesting... for the first playthrough. It has the potential to be even worse than Chateau Irenicus or the Temple of Trials...
  
• G.O.A.T.(se?)? Seriously, what?
  
• Whoever's playing that sure knows how to pick their character names.
  
• Thinking is already starting to make my head hurt.
  

[LostStraw]

The whole infant business seems interesting... for the first playthrough. It has the potential to be even worse than Chateau Irenicus or the Temple of Trials...

It looks like you'll be able to edit your character right before you leave the Vault (tutorial stage). This means that, just like in Oblivion, you'll be able to skip the tutorial by making a save right before entering the open world and using that save as a beginning point when starting a new game.

 

The most disturbing thing I find in the screen shots is the interface. Things like skills being listed in alphabetical order instead of being grouped by similarities (combat, diplomacy, etc..) is a little mystifying and confusing to me. And although the Pip Boy looks cool it seems like it'll be an annoyance to navigate (on the PC at least).

[Pop]

Game's been dated for Oct 28, 31 in Europe.

[Moatilliatta]

Aww screw them, that's right after my birthday.

 

Why can't release dates play nice.

[Tigranes]

Awooga, the day I arrive in Korea. Won't have a computer good enough to play it for the first couple of weeks at least, then.

 

Ah well.

[Volourn]

"It has the potential to be even worse than Chateau Irenicus"

 

This was awesome.

 

 

 

"Temple of Trials..."

 

This.. not so much.