The Decline and Fall of Europe

[Azarkon]

Read an interesting article today.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6021301569.html

 

As I'm not much of an EU scholar, I'll leave the more erudite discussion to others for this one, but the trend is certainly interesting (and troubling, perhaps) to talk about even just in terms of ancedotes. So, any Europeans around who'd like to shed light on what they think about the predictions? Is it truly doom & gloom, or is the article writer just talking alot of arse?

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I read it, felt my IQ drop a little, saw what it was like to be an arrogant American looking at europe through shades, then decided to raise my IQ again to that of a normal human being.

 

I didn't really find any of it particularly relivent in an era where the world economy is seemingly in decline this feels somewhat, retarded, and ill concieved. It paints a dim portrait, when infact there is no real need.

 

BTW, not sure on the numbers but those poor Swedes sure pay alot of Tax.

 

In future I think I'll stay outta the political threads, they just make me wanna rant about how cool it would have been if the Nazi's had dropped the atom bomb on New York.... Which in turn just upsets people.

[Pidesco]

I think Zakaria is an idiot, sometimes.

[SteveThaiBinh]

People have argued that Europeans simply value leisure more and, as a result, are poorer but have a better quality of life.

It's rather more than just valuing leisure more. It all depends on how you want to measure wealth -you might want to include personal development, access to healthcare, social networks and so on. One can take this to silly extremes, of course, but economists and their sometimes exclusive interest in GDP are rather silly, too. While I agree with some aspects of the articles, notably that European leaders keep talking about stimulating growth and not acting upon what they say, as a whole I don't think it reflects reality in Europe. It would be more interesting to see a comparison which excluded the super-rich from the equation, and focused more on the opportunities and choices available to people lower down the economic scale.

[Tigranes]

Oh, it's Fareed Zakaria?

 

Well, I like him, but this time it feels like he's suspected something for a while from personal observation, then saw an OECD report and decided to just latch onto it. Not the most professional or appropriate hijacking of big macro statistics.

 

Frankly, I don't know enough hard facts to say what IS true about the topic. But looking at that column, neither does he; it's conjecture and very quick at that.

[Walsingham]

On the one hand I agree that we euro-weenies are likely to have unexpressed well-offness, by way of infrastructure, education, and healthcare. I would also observe that much of America (and the UK) GDP is defence exports and therefore unlikely to make anyone except console gamers actually happy trousered.

 

However, there are other points to keep in mind that may support ol' Zak.

 

- We have far less living space per person.

- Much of European industry is state protected and uncompetitive in real terms viz France, Spain, and Portugal.

- The less said about the Italian legal economy the better

- Our populations are ageing, and becoming less productive to a greater extent for teh simple reason taht we care for our elderly, and we live longer.

 

On the plus side, being a true federation we are more robust in the face of shocks and vicissitudes. i.e. his analysis assumes current trends, but ignores the potential for crashes, mishandling, etc.

[Nick_i_am]

I too am happy trousered.

[Sand]

I rather live in Europe, Germany or Great Britiain preferable, than here in the US.

[Nick_i_am]

The nice thing about the EU is that I can live or work in any of those places.

[walkerguy]

"...In March 2000, E.U. heads of state agreed to make the European Union "the most competitive and dynamic knowledge-driven economy by 2010." Today this looks like a joke... The decline of Europe means a world with a greater diffusion of power and a lessened ability to create international norms and rules of the road. It also means that America's superpower status will linger. Think of the dollar. For years people have argued that it is due for a massive drop as countries around the world diversify their savings. But as people looked at the alternatives, they decided that the chief rivals, the euro and the yen, represented economies that were structurally weak. So they have reluctantly stuck with the dollar. It's a similar dynamic in other arenas. You can't beat something with nothing."

 

Poor Europeans, maybe the date needs to be set back a wee bit further. We've all got to stop limping around, Europe needs to stand, and with the U.S., compete. We can't be thrown down by Asia. Most embarrasing is the fact that the "third world" is surpassing Europeans and even Americans. One day we might say to a Mexican or Cambodian, "Please sir, may I have some more?"

Edited February 21, 2008 by walkerguy

[Nick_i_am]

Supassing them how?

[Xard]

That article was load of bull

 

I mean, wtf.

[Walsingham]

I rather live in Europe, Germany or Great Britiain preferable, than here in the US.

 

No you wouldn't.

 

1. We believe in Society this side of the pond. You believe in hiding under a duvet with a shotgun.

2. We believe human life is precious. You believe someone should be shot for stealing fig newtons.

[Gorgon]

Many of the points are valid, especially the battle Germany and France have been waging with pentions and wages which are entirely unsustainable in a global market, and yet these underpin the political leadership and will continue to do so in future.

 

We are having a similar debacle in Denmark, the economy is sound and private sector jobs are paying off much more now than public ones, so now the pressure is on for wage increases that are pretty much guaranteed to hurt state finances the next 20 years.

 

Others are not, biotech companies clutter around scandinavia because of the high level of education, and exports are rebounding. Europe is not insular in any sense of the word, except perhaps militarily, but what really does that matter, we have no credible threats to our borders and I propose we can be forgiven for being complacent in that area as long as we lead the field in development aid.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Gorgon

[Sand]

No you wouldn't.

 

1. We believe in Society this side of the pond. You believe in hiding under a duvet with a shotgun.

2. We believe human life is precious. You believe someone should be shot for stealing fig newtons.

 

Well, here I have no real reason to believe in US Society nor any real desire to be a part of it. I do believe human life is precious, especially mine. I only believe someone should be shot if they seek to unjustly harm another human being.

[walkerguy]

Surpassing them how?

 

Check that article again. They aren't driving Mercedes or going to the doc for free medical care ( oh wait yeah they are- the Red Cross) but proportionatly they're definitely whipping everyones- behind...

[walkerguy]

I rather live in Europe, Germany or Great Britiain preferable, than here in the US.

 

No you wouldn't.

 

1. We believe in Society this side of the pond. You believe in hiding under a duvet with a shotgun.

2. We believe human life is precious. You believe someone should be shot for stealing fig newtons.

 

Thats what Europeans get for migrating and mixing with asians, africans, and other far away Europeans: an unrespectable country that starts headstrong and ends up collapsing a few hundred years later. I'm screwed. (U.S.)

[Volourn]

"1. We believe in Society this side of the pond. You believe in hiding under a duvet with a shotgun."

 

Must explain brainwashing, and forcing others socieities to accept yours by force. *cough* Afrika 8cough* Amerikas 8cough*

 

 

"2. We believe human life is precious. You believe someone should be shot for stealing fig newtons."

 

Must explain Hitler.

 

 

Yeah, I went there. But, the ego of Europeans who try to pretend their the Land of Love, and Happiness, and the US is the Big bad Evil is a joke - espicially since all of the US's aggresive tendencies (for right or wrong reasons) are a direct result of European influence.

 

 

Europeans who look down on the US should look in a mirror... and, a history book. L0L

 

 

As for the topic: Europe ain't going anywhere. The Fall is foolish talk.

[walkerguy]

"1. We believe in Society this side of the pond. You believe in hiding under a duvet with a shotgun."

 

Must explain brainwashing, and forcing others socieities to accept yours by force. *cough* Afrika 8cough* Amerikas 8cough*

 

 

"2. We believe human life is precious. You believe someone should be shot for stealing fig newtons."

 

Must explain Hitler.

 

 

Yeah, I went there. But, the ego of Europeans who try to pretend their the Land of Love, and Happiness, and the US is the Big bad Evil is a joke - espicially since all of the US's aggresive tendencies (for right or wrong reasons) are a direct result of European influence.

 

 

Europeans who look down on the US should look in a mirror... and, a history book. L0L

 

 

As for the topic: Europe ain't going anywhere. The Fall is foolish talk.

 

Yay. The US/Canada alliance! Canadians and Americans until the end!

(noted that you are Canadian)

 

[samm]

I don't live in the EU, but have a "slightly" closer view of the article's theme. Calling current tendencies a "decline", while the USA are drifting towards a recession (and possibly drawing others with them) seems to be good only for saying: "Hey, it's not as bad here as you might think, look there in Europe, they have it worse".

 

Sorry to quote something that was off-topic, but:

Europeans who look down on the US should look in a mirror... and, a history book. L0L

this is true for any two parties, be it Europe-US, US-Europe, Europa-Africa...

 

walkerguy:

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Thats what Europeans get for migrating and mixing with asians, africans, and other far away Europeans: an unrespectable country that starts headstrong and ends up collapsing a few hundred years later.

 

Are you some sort of bigoted, xenophobic white-supremest, or are you just an ignorant racist? I, for one, find that the quoted statement seems rather pro-anglo, as all of the countries you mentioned in a negative light are primarily inhabited by non-white peoples. Are you trying to claim that the mixing of races will be Europe's downfall? If so, why the hell would you not provide evidence to back up a supposition of that nature? Is your goal to troll the forum until you are banned? And, before you arrogantly claim that I am part of the movement to oust white Europeans from "their country," you can find a photo of myself in both my profile and my signature.

[Volourn]

"Yay. The US/Canada alliance! Canadians and Americans until the end!

(noted that you are Canadian)"

 

I'm sad you did; but appreciative. Usually when someone sees my pro US stance (though the US is not perfect) people automatically assume I'm an 'ignorant Amerikan'. It makes me chuckle as I inform them that I'm actually Kanadian.

 

 

Samm: So true.

 

 

P.S. I don't hate Europeor Europeans; but the arrogance they show simply because their land mass happens to have a long history of what we consider modern civilization irks me.

[walkerguy]

What I said was in response to:

 

No you wouldn't. [Want to live in Europe]

 

1. We believe in Society this side of the pond. You believe in hiding under a duvet with a shotgun.

2. We believe human life is precious. You believe someone should be shot for stealing fig newtons.

 

What I'm saying is that America is a melting pot. Is that not true? Is it not a fact that like 90-99% of the U.S. people didn't decend from U.S. soil? I did say OTHER EUROPEANS. I'm not racist or east-hater, and I recently cleared up an issue whereas I had insulted a british user because of his nationality. Back off, Nightshade. If you want to find "white supremisits" go to Texas. Next time check your accusations. You don't even know my race. Thought of that?

[Nick_i_am]

Actually, i'm pretty sure Wals was just poking fun at Hades rather than specifically bashing America.

 

Check that article again. They aren't driving Mercedes or going to the doc for free medical care ( oh wait yeah they are- the Red Cross) but proportionatly they're definitely whipping everyones- behind...

 

Except that most of the third world is either in a state of conflict, poverty, tyranical repression or most of the above.

 

'much poorer Asian countries.' does not mean the third world, unless you consider China and India as such, in which case, hahahaha. The only mention of such is in biomedical sciences, which europe seemingly isn't doing much work in, however the EUs reserch into other medical fields, such as the effects of electromagnetic fields was massively supassing that of the US when last I checked.

 

I recently cleared up an issue whereas I had insulted a british user because of his nationality.

 

erm, calling me a Brit isn't an insult, it's a fact.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Nick_i_am

[walkerguy]

erm, calling me a Brit isn't an insult, it's a fact.

 

True, I suppose. Its not like theres any shame. As for research, blame our good ol Bush. Geez, Europe needs a taste of how hard it is to deal with "radical texans".