Mask of the Betrayer

[Cantousent]

You can build your character to a higher level than someone running straight from the expansion. You can build your character with the new prestige classes. Those seem to be the biggest reasons to play the original game again. Personally, I will be running a fresh campaign in order to use some of the new builds.

[GreasyDogMeat]

For my evil playthrough, I think I'll just import my Tiefling Warlock that I'm playing the OC with now. For a good play through, I think I'll replay the OC with one of the new races/classes/prestiges then over to Mask.

[Aegeri]

I'll have to see. If combat is more Icewind Dale than NWN2, that would be a really good start for me.

The expansion does start out pretty mellow in the combat department, but it ramps up quickly after that. We put a good amount of effort into revising the combat scenarios so they felt tactically challenging. We tried to find ways to differentiate enemy types from area to area and within each area. Tactical difficulty is usually more interesting than numeric difficulty, if that makes sense.

 

Yes it does. I've been a DM of 3E DnD for years and this is definitely true. That sounds very promising, because I often got the impression in NWN2 that hordes of orcs/rogues/watchmen were used because whoever designed those areas couldn't think of anything more interesting for characters to fight.

 

I would enjoy seeing D&D RPGs get combat that involved the player more but still keeping the rolls involved with D&D combat.

 

No. Abstracted combat systems like DnD should be CLOSER to the rules, not further from it. I already find it aggravating that many of the most interesting tactics and skills aren't available in NWN2 as it sort of makes some compromises between the original TB 3E combat and the simulated real time rounds it does have. If they want to make a combat system where the player 'drives' combat, don't make the game DnD to begin with. That simple.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Aegeri

[Sand]

Exactly, Aegeri!

[GreasyDogMeat]

I'll have to see. If combat is more Icewind Dale than NWN2, that would be a really good start for me.

The expansion does start out pretty mellow in the combat department, but it ramps up quickly after that. We put a good amount of effort into revising the combat scenarios so they felt tactically challenging. We tried to find ways to differentiate enemy types from area to area and within each area. Tactical difficulty is usually more interesting than numeric difficulty, if that makes sense.

 

Yes it does. I've been a DM of 3E DnD for years and this is definitely true. That sounds very promising, because I often got the impression in NWN2 that hordes of orcs/rogues/watchmen were used because whoever designed those areas couldn't think of anything more interesting for characters to fight.

 

I would enjoy seeing D&D RPGs get combat that involved the player more but still keeping the rolls involved with D&D combat.

 

No. Abstracted combat systems like DnD should be CLOSER to the rules, not further from it. I already find it aggravating that many of the most interesting tactics and skills aren't available in NWN2 as it sort of makes some compromises between the original TB 3E combat and the simulated real time rounds it does have. If they want to make a combat system where the player 'drives' combat, don't make the game DnD to begin with. That simple.

 

I never said I wanted it further from the rules. The closer to the rules the better, but I think something more interesting and exciting could be implemented instead of simply clicking an enemy to attack... then sitting back and watching. I'd like to see more exciting in your face combat animations.

[Zoma]

3 new but small itsy bitsy tiny weenee pics.

 

 

 

 

Dammit Obsidian! No need to be such a scroogy and release new sets of PROPER pics already! >_<

[Pop]

FIREFOX WOOOOOOO

[Aegeri]

I never said I wanted it further from the rules. The closer to the rules the better, but I think something more interesting and exciting could be implemented instead of simply clicking an enemy to attack... then sitting back and watching. I'd like to see more exciting in your face combat animations.

 

That's a different concept than what I originally thought and I couldn't agree more. If you're going to use a system like NWN2s, IMO, it's vastly important to make the combat animations and similar as interesting to look at as possible. Either that, you make the combat hectic and challenging enough that players aren't just sitting there actively doing nothing but watching enemies/characters swing swords at one another for 30 minutes.

 

Edit: Which, incidentally is why I don't like KotoR and why I think BG2 was such a great game. BG2 had hectic, often challenging combat and I was always doing something with my characters (actually, I will praise IWD for the same thing while I am at it). NWN2 and KotoR had lots of combat, but it was brainless and got highly repetitive (because I rarely was challenged and had to do anything in combat), which does expose the flaws in things like overly repetitive combat animations as you stated.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Aegeri

[Tale]

I never said I wanted it further from the rules. The closer to the rules the better, but I think something more interesting and exciting could be implemented instead of simply clicking an enemy to attack... then sitting back and watching. I'd like to see more exciting in your face combat animations.

 

That's a different concept than what I originally thought and I couldn't agree more. If you're going to use a system like NWN2s, IMO, it's vastly important to make the combat animations and similar as interesting to look at as possible. Either that, you make the combat hectic and challenging enough that players aren't just sitting there actively doing nothing but watching enemies/characters swing swords at one another for 30 minutes.

 

Edit: Which, incidentally is why I don't like KotoR and why I think BG2 was such a great game. BG2 had hectic, often challenging combat and I was always doing something with my characters (actually, I will praise IWD for the same thing while I am at it). NWN2 and KotoR had lots of combat, but it was brainless and got highly repetitive (because I rarely was challenged and had to do anything in combat), which does expose the flaws in things like overly repetitive combat animations as you stated.

 

I have to disagree. The reason BG2 was "hectic, often challenging combat" in contrast compared to NWN2 and KOTOR is because of the most popular form of party control. NWN2 and KOTOR have your party taking on their roles supposedly independently of the player character. BG2 we all took complete control. We had to set up the attacks for every single character. Something players don't seem to do so often in NWN2 and KOTOR.

 

I really don't see how praising BG2 and IWD brings up a point about combat animations, either way.

[Aegeri]

I never said I wanted it further from the rules. The closer to the rules the better, but I think something more interesting and exciting could be implemented instead of simply clicking an enemy to attack... then sitting back and watching. I'd like to see more exciting in your face combat animations.

 

That's a different concept than what I originally thought and I couldn't agree more. If you're going to use a system like NWN2s, IMO, it's vastly important to make the combat animations and similar as interesting to look at as possible. Either that, you make the combat hectic and challenging enough that players aren't just sitting there actively doing nothing but watching enemies/characters swing swords at one another for 30 minutes.

 

Edit: Which, incidentally is why I don't like KotoR and why I think BG2 was such a great game. BG2 had hectic, often challenging combat and I was always doing something with my characters (actually, I will praise IWD for the same thing while I am at it). NWN2 and KotoR had lots of combat, but it was brainless and got highly repetitive (because I rarely was challenged and had to do anything in combat), which does expose the flaws in things like overly repetitive combat animations as you stated.

 

I have to disagree. The reason BG2 was "hectic, often challenging combat" in contrast compared to NWN2 and KOTOR is because of the most popular form of party control. NWN2 and KOTOR have your party taking on their roles supposedly independently of the player character. BG2 we all took complete control. We had to set up the attacks for every single character. Something players don't seem to do so often in NWN2 and KOTOR.

 

Because it's not required, because KotoR is mindless in difficulty. If you can tell me how clicking "force wave" every 6 seconds is challenging, you MIGHT start making a convincing argument. But I'm going to suggest that clicking force wave every 6 seconds (or just hacking things to death with dual baragwain assault blades or two lightsabers, doesn't really matter in the end) is not difficult. You never 'need' to control all your party in KotoR because combat is so simple, you wouldn't need to. The only challenging fight in all of KotoR is taking on Bendark Starkiller in the arena as a scoundrel without levelling your main character at all (so as to maximise Jedi levels later).

 

NWN2 just has no challenge either because you typically fight hordes of low level mobs, most of which pose no real threat... there are just lots of them. Often repeatedly one after the other. I think the only two fights in NWN2 that bothered me was Koraboras and possibly the one with the two Black Dragons. That you can of course fight two black dragons simultaneously, while not needing to pay much attention to controlling your characters (as you have just pointed out for me, NWN2 allows you far less finesse in controlling your characters than BG2) just proves my point that there really isn't much to combat difficulty in NWN2.

 

Also, your point is also completely irrelevant. BG2 and IWD are more challenging because they have more varied combat situations, enemies are stronger (and often well equipped) and they use more numerous stronger enemies. The games are more challenging, plain and simple. I cannot recall any fight in KotoR that was more than a speedbump (with the ironic exception of an early game fight while actually powergaming - oh the irony) and the couple of fights I mentioned above from NWN2.

 

I really don't see how praising BG2 and IWD brings up a point about combat animations, either way.

 

Needing to do stuff and not just watch because I don't have to do anything to win, means I don't notice the combat animations so much. If I'm just watching things more or less play out, as in NWN2/KotoR, about the only thing I'm going to pay attention to is the combat animations (what else am I doing?).

 

Edit: Also, I can't really think of where to put PS:T in terms of difficulty of combat. I don't think that PS:T was really that difficult overall, but I played that game pretty much for the reams of dialogue rather than killing things.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Aegeri

[Pope]

Are the new base classes any fun?

[Tale]

My argument is that interesting combat animations won't offset the lack of challenge. I never argued that KOTOR was difficult.

 

Looking back, I appear to have implied that choosing to focus on a the PC was a player choice entirely. However, it was developer intent in those games. Hence why it was so easy. Ease was included so a player wouldn't have to focus on others and juggle characters and abilities. Again, giving them interesting combat animations won't do anything to offset the issues that brings up.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Tale

[Aegeri]

My argument is that interesting combat animations won't offset the lack of challenge. I never argued that KOTOR was difficult.

 

Ok, so we go down the irrelevant path.

 

I suggest you re-read my original argument. I don't notice poor combat animations when I'm busily trying to do things rather than watch something. If I'm sitting there watching something for long periods because the game handles itself, I have a lot more time to look at the combat animations. It's somewhat like trying to look at a license plate of a car that is trying to run you over at 5mph vs. 120mph. I am pretty sure I could spot grandmas license plate and remember a fair amount of detail about the car going at 5mph, I don't need to do a lot to avoid it in the end. Now, if I'm going to avoid something at 120mph, I doubt I'm going to remember what it looked like or even the license plate as I move my ass to get out of the way (and most likely fail).

[Tale]

I wasn't arguing that you won't notice it, I just misinterpreted you as saying that interesting combat animations would make up for the uninteresting combat.

[Aegeri]

I wasn't arguing that you won't notice it, I just misinterpreted you as saying that interesting combat animations would make up for the uninteresting combat.

 

Well, it makes things better. Like, at the very least you can have decapitations and such forth. If combat isn't going to be challenging, it might as well be amusing to watch instead and as flashy as possible (without being annoying). I don't need to be actively in a Kung Fu movie or whatever to actually enjoy it

[Cantousent]

MotB will not test your mettle as a tactical combat sim, Aegeri. It's tougher than NWN2, but it's not a "bragging rights" game. I think, overall, it's much tougher than either NWN2 or NWN. If you enjoyed PST for the story rather than the combat, then you'll probably enjoy MotB. However, with your focus on combat, I don't want to mislead you either. I haven't seen a single title in the entire NWN franchise that posed a harsh test of combat acumen. As I said, the combat is difficult enough that I found it entertaining but not so tough that it will turn away players who don't focus quite so clearly on combat.

 

I believe MotB is a step in the right direction, true, but it is not the IE. The focus in the IE games was party tactical. Sure, some folks used AI to run characters, but I think there was a certain understanding that the life expectancy of the party rose considerably if the player took an active hand in queuing up orders. My take on the NWN franchise is that there is an understanding that players will only occasionally issue orders to each individual party member. Some folks might go through the game without issuing specific orders to all members at the same time.

 

Nonetheless, the specific source of your ire, the orc caves, does not repeat itself in MotB. I can't cite specifics, but I can only say that areas where you might find the combat too easy will be quickly completed and behind you.

 

I also suggest that there will probably be more people who find the game difficult than easy. In fact, for a couple of reasons, you might find the game to be quite difficult as well, even if you don't find the combat as challenging as some of games from "the good ol' days." :Cant's easy grin icon:

[Tale]

I'm dying to see what Epic Warlock feats they have. The feats listed on the WotC site are awesome.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Tale

[Pope]

You tried any of the new classes Cant?

[Sand]

There hasn't been a challenging CRPG since Fallout 2.

[Starwars]

I found Baldurs Gate 2 (BG1 as well, but I don't remember which one was released first of BG and Fallout 2) to be more challenging than Fallout 2. Still, both games lie within the challenge level of what I personally would call fun. ToEE as well, though it's obviously a dungeon crawl so focus needed to be on combat.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Starwars

[Tale]

I can't stand any game that forces me to either:

 

"know about encounters ahead of time to prepare for them"

"min/max my characters to account for the difficulty"

"grind to become powerful enough to handle the difficulty without the other problems"

"find secret items to be able to handle the difficulty"

 

Fallout was retarded about it sometimes. I would randomly encounter super mutant enemies that one-shotted my companions. The only thing that stopped them from one-shotting me was power armor I had to use a walkthrough to get. It frustrated me to the point of cheating my way through that game.

 

I've long firmly believed that difficult does not make a game fun. I've said it a billion times over and I never hear agreement but I will say it until the day I die. Especially with regards to RPGs, a player should not be forced to take themself out of their character's perspective through reloading saves or walkthroughs, barring incredibly poor luck or particularly uncharacteristic playstyle. These are not resources available to the character being played and should not be necessary for the player controlling him. If a game wants to have particularly difficult or gimmicky encounters, it needs to ensure that both player and the character have the resources and knowledge to handle them before they pose a significant danger.

 

RPGs have often been horrible about this. They'll throw monsters at you that require +3 weapons with no assurance that your party even has the bloody things. And if its reasonable that they do have +3 weapons, there's no reasonable assurance they can use the ones they do have.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Tale

[Sand]

You know, if I faced a super mutant and I am not in power armor or with a strong weapon I would...

 

RUN!

 

Sometimes the smartest thing the PC can do is run the frack away. In the words of Khalid... "Better part of valor! BETTER PART OF VALOR!"

Edited September 11, 2007 by Sand

[Tale]

You can't run fast enough from a chain gun.

[Sand]

You can't run fast enough from a chain gun.

 

Run and duck.

[Llyranor]

This seems like an ideal time to bring up the werewolf.