Big plot hole in KOTOR 1?

[Hassat Hunter]

Oh, right. I thought someone had said so in Team Jawa's forums

 

No idea what you're talking about

 

In what kind of connection you found that?

Just seeking for info about the destruction of Dantooine

No idea where they planned to have the guy dumped though...

[Guest The Architect]

This just goes to show how crap and overrated BioWare

Edited March 6, 2007 by The Architect

[DeathScepter]

no bioware don't have overrated storylines.

[mappalazarou]

We saw the first vision of the star maps with both Malak and Revan present in the ruins on Dantooine so he probably must have known, unless the academy was built after The Mandalorian Wars.

[Nesquaam]

Well, I have read most of the arguments made, but I have come up with another possible solution. Remember Kreia, and het ability to make people 'forget' about her? Is it possible that the Jedi used this same technique on a much bigger scale to hide the Encale from the galaxy. And when a settler went off-planet they used the same technique Kreia used on Disciple to make them forget about the Enclave ? I know, it doesn't change the fact that Revan and Malak must have know about the Enclave, but it might be an explanation why the rest of the galaxy leaves Dantooine undisturbed.

 

So what do all of you think about it?

[Xard]

Bah

[Azure79]

Saul was just a sadistic man influenced by the dark side. He took pleasure in tormenting Revan, his former master. His asking of questions he already knew answers to was just a ploy and an excuse to torture them.

[Guest The Architect]

no bioware don't have overrated storylines.

 

I've only played one BioWare game (KotOR). I didn't say that they have overrated storylines either.

 

I do like KotOR, but it is overrated (especially the major plot twist). It is.

 

Well, I have read most of the arguments made, but I have come up with another possible solution. Remember Kreia, and het ability to make people 'forget' about her? Is it possible that the Jedi used this same technique on a much bigger scale to hide the Encale from the galaxy. And when a settler went off-planet they used the same technique Kreia used on Disciple to make them forget about the Enclave ? I know, it doesn't change the fact that Revan and Malak must have know about the Enclave, but it might be an explanation why the rest of the galaxy leaves Dantooine undisturbed.

 

So what do all of you think about it?

 

 

It's far-fetched beyond reason.

Edited March 7, 2007 by The Architect

[Hassat Hunter]

Only thing I can come up with is that the Jedi Masters only know an assault as in that they bring troopers in transporters to the ground to fight.

 

Apperently the whole concept of wiping them out of the air is alien to them... till Taris; and then it was too late...

[DeathScepter]

no bioware don't have overrated storylines.

 

I've only played one BioWare game (KotOR). I didn't say that they have overrated storylines either.

 

I do like KotOR, but it is overrated (especially the major plot twist). It is.

 

Well, I have read most of the arguments made, but I have come up with another possible solution. Remember Kreia, and het ability to make people 'forget' about her? Is it possible that the Jedi used this same technique on a much bigger scale to hide the Encale from the galaxy. And when a settler went off-planet they used the same technique Kreia used on Disciple to make them forget about the Enclave ? I know, it doesn't change the fact that Revan and Malak must have know about the Enclave, but it might be an explanation why the rest of the galaxy leaves Dantooine undisturbed.

 

So what do all of you think about it?

 

 

It's far-fetched beyond reason.

 

 

 

 

Well it is not that bad but Kotor 1 is if NWN and OT had a baby.

 

 

Kotor 2 is if Kotor 1 and Placescape Torment had a baby.

 

 

 

 

Yes there is a big plot twist in kotor 2.

[Purgatorio]

I see NPCs in "real Life" they are the ones walking aimlessly that you wave at who have a scripted response of waving and saying "Hello". If you don't wave they just go about their wondering in a set pattern and you never learn anything, but really they're NPCs so they have nothing interesting to say that you can't learn yourself from News Terminals.... "The weather will be fine" "A space battle ensued over Onderon"

 

What this has to do with the question: I just thought of it when driving past the Great Unwashed the other day, see they were doing the same thing two weeks ago. However, in the game when you return later the Jedi say they will be moving the Order, those that were wondering that is. See a method to my madness.

 

The Sith were once Jedi. The Dantooine enclave was used by Jedi, so it stands to reason that the Sith would have known about it because they were once Jedi. Hehe

[ghosta]

hundreds of Jedi were not trained on Dantooine because the enclave is too small for that many jedi.

 

Dantooine is remote enougth that 99.95% of the galatic population does not know about it

 

Malak would not attack Dantooine because it is too remote to serve any tatical perpuse. Malak would be wasting his resourses occuping a world with no war materials, a complete waist. This explains why the republic so easily resetles Dantooine after the Jedi civil War.

[Guest The Architect]

Well it is not that bad but Kotor 1 is if NWN and OT had a baby.

 

What is not that bad? That KotOR isn't that much of a rip-off of the OT? No, it is a big rip-off.

 

 

Kotor 2 is if Kotor 1 and Placescape Torment had a baby.

 

Umm

Edited March 8, 2007 by The Architect

[Guest The Architect]

What is not that bad? That KotOR isn't that much of a rip-off of the OT? No, it is a big rip-off.

 

Wow, that is one of my rare...stupid, stupid posts. Damn that one hour edit limit!

 

You were talking about Nesquaam's theory. How did I not see that before?

 

Nah, it is. Nesquaam's theory that is.

 

That's better.

Edited March 8, 2007 by The Architect

[Watchman]

This just goes to show how crap and overrated BioWare's story the Jedi are. Revan and Malak knew about the enclave on Dantooine. Duh, they trained there. So what does the Council do? Not only are they retarded enough to think that they're safe on Dantooine (a world their enemies are fully aware of), they somehow overlooked the fact that Dantooine is a remote world away from any major Republic fleet that would come to their aid if they were attacked, which begs the question; WHY would they think that Malak wouldn't attack them, considering the massive fleet he had?!?!?

 

I can't believe that Bastila has a sad at you if you tell Saul the academy is on Dantooine as well. Did she think that they didn't know?!? That's ridiculous, considering she KNOWS that Revan and Malak trained on Dantooine, and she had a vision SHOWING Revan and Malak on Dantooine.

 

Even if she assumed that the Sith thought the Jedi departed Dantooine, why would she think they still wouldn't attack it, considering the fact that there was a possibility that the Jedi would be there, or they would return there if they weren't there? It just goes to show how small-minded and big headed she was.

 

"Do you want to fight for the Republic?

 

Do you want to work towards the elimination of evil?

 

Are you a galactic minority full of burning hated towards those who would exploit and enslave you, with no place left to go?

 

Do you like to make meaningless statments and call it wisdom?

 

Do you want your own lightsabre?

 

If the answers are yes then why not Join the Jedi order today!

 

Apply to Master Vrook at the Hidden Jedi Enclave on Dantooine today! Ships leaving every hour on the hour from terminal 3.

 

Ps; Please do not read this if you are affiliated with the Sith or any other group opposed to the Jedi order.

 

Disclaimer; The Jedi order takes no responsibilty should you;

 

Turn into a Sith Lord during or after training.

 

Attempt to take over the galaxy,

 

wipe out whole species,

 

Destroy whole planets just to kill the one person you really want to kill,

 

Lose your sense of humor

 

Lose all your hair

 

Become sexually frustrated due to the ban on Jedi having any type of romance-this includes so much as looking at a member of the opposite sex.

 

(Poster in the Taris docks)

 

Lol!

 

The more I look at the choices the Jedi Masters made during the Civil war the more I'm starting to think that they were not losing because Revan was a huge tactical genius, but because the Jedi had the collective Tactical skills of a turnip.

 

Lol again.

 

 

OMG! I can't believe I mist that poster! That is sooo coooolll!

 

Anyway, on topic, just listening to what the Jedi Masters where saying told me that they are a bunch of retards and are just about the sole reason for everything that went to hell.

 

I got a working idea when looking over this. And that is that after the war with Exar Kun they had this really big mess up that had cost the galaxy big time. So they got a sort of dazed reaction, you could also call it guilt. Making mistake after mistake they quickly proved they were unfit to do their jobs, than they let the Mandelorians reek havoc. So Revan left them, then, told that he was evil and also tempted by the darkside with all the fighting, he became so.

 

There really is no way of getting around the fact that the counsel was just being stupid. They kind of accuse the Exile of their own crimes. I think something that would make sense is they stopped being intelligent after the war with Kun, thus it was inevitable that their own would turn against them, not being so gullible as to be prevented from doing their jobs by their own masters and leaving the Jedi without leadership to be torn apart from within or without, thus the civil war.

 

The Enclave is just another error on the part of the counsel. I don't think that they could have been hit like that if they were acting intelligently. But not being so, they sat there and got flattened. So on one side you have the Sith, with some more or less intelligent management and knowledge that the Jedi Counsel was just going to sit there with a big bull eye painted top of their Enclave and the Jedi, with their poor leadership telling them they are all sinners and that if they should do nothing, (a point that they repeat often) everything will have to sort itself out, as the Jedi are sinners and mess up everything they touch. I always thought that attitude made more Sith then Revan ever could. Keria's fancy story in KOTOR2 tried to tell me otherwise. But her statement told me that she must have been one of them and was just as blind as the others.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Watchman

[SilentScope001]

Why Malak did not attack Dantoonie until He Captured Bastila and Revan:

 

Because he can.

 

Malak has been consumed utterly by power, by lust, by a sort of craziness that drives all Sith. He has gone mad, killing off a whole planet just for a search of one tiny, insiginficant Jedi Princess. He constantly underestimate Revan's skills, and always believe that he got the advantage when he does not. The Star Forge fuels his insanity, driving him to do these things, to act dumb.

 

Here, I'll make the comparison to Darth Nihilus. Like Darth Malak, he too is all-mighty. Darth Nihilus has a Force Drain, Darth Malak has a infinite armada. Darth Nihilus does not see insiginficant people, just planets, just food, just the Force. I suspect that is how Darth Malak saw everything. He believed he WILL win. After all, didn't he heroically destroy Darth Revan by blowing his ship up? Didn't he find the Star Forge? Didn't he "crack the secrets", so to say?

 

Darth Malak is indeed so powerful that he can do WHATEVER he wants. Revan focused all efforts on winning the war, but Malak saw the whole galaxy as his sandbox, to play around. He suffers from delusions of graunder, and he finally gets cured later on when Malak realizes that he always was "nothing". By then, it was too late, as he destroyed everything like a baby with a tantrum.

 

Malak was the best weapon the True Sith would ever hoped for.

===

Why did the Jedi Masters Did Not Realize Dantoonie Would Be Attacked:

 

Let's use Occam's Razor...Bioware made a plot hole.

 

EDIT: A note...not ALL people know that Dantoonie was a secret Jedi Academcy. If you ask Canderous, he'll say he thought of it as a simple farming world, so boring that not even HE would lead his troops to attack it during the Mandalorian Wars.

Edited March 9, 2007 by SilentScope001

[Calax]

hundreds of Jedi were not trained on Dantooine because the enclave is too small for that many jedi.

 

Dantooine is remote enougth that 99.95% of the galatic population does not know about it

 

Malak would not attack Dantooine because it is too remote to serve any tatical perpuse. Malak would be wasting his resourses occuping a world with no war materials, a complete waist. This explains why the republic so easily resetles Dantooine after the Jedi civil War.

I quote ANH here:

 

"Dantoinne, they're on dantoinne"

 

Given that TARKIN recognizes it instantly i'd guess it was pretty well known. It's an agro planet but that doesn't mean that it has no consequence. Also one thing people need to learn about fights in space is that there is no such thing as a front. Heck you could hit and take every agrocultural world in the galaxy without touching the other guys main defensive stations. The only reason certain areas are extremly well defended is because either they are a trade hub, or they have a shipyard or other sensative military installation.

[Darth Mortis]

I quote ANH here:

 

"Dantoinne, they're on dantoinne"

 

Given that TARKIN recognizes it instantly i'd guess it was pretty well known.

 

That was 4000 years after Malak attacked the planet. Tarkin could have known Dantooine for something that occured centuries after Revan and Malak. He could even have heard about the place because Malak bombed the world. Hell, as far as anyone knows he could have been born there.

 

Also one thing people need to learn about fights in space is that there is no such thing as a front. Heck you could hit and take every agrocultural world in the galaxy without touching the other guys main defensive stations. The only reason certain areas are extremly well defended is because either they are a trade hub, or they have a shipyard or other sensative military installation.

 

Faster than light travel in the Starwars universe is Via hyperspace. According to cannon sources hyperspace travel is in a straight line between two points, but can be disrupted by strong gravity-Eg Planets and stars. This means that there are hyperspace 'routes', that is paths a ship going through hyperspace can take in the happy knowlage that they will not run into a gravity well. (The real world equivalent would be shipping routes where the chances of running into a underwater object or sandbank or nil). As the number of stars in the a region of space increase the number of hyperspace jump routes drops-The term 'core worlds' in Starwars means planets close to the galactic core, which have a large number of stars (relitively) close together and hence only have a few routes to get to them. Mapping new hyperspace routes is difficult and dangerous (I quote from the first game) as you have no idea if there is something with significant mass along your route-say a neutron star which gives off no light or a black hole. Because of this ships always stick to the routes, the only variation depends on the speed of the ship in hyperspace-faster ships like the Millennium Falcon can get closer to gravity fields than slower ships such as star-destroyers. (Although I'm using the Films and EU as examples the same principals would apply 4000 years earlier-in fact they might be more applicable, as it would seen highly unlikely that the ships of Revan and Malaks time would be faster than those of the films. So if anything they would have even fewer routes to pick when traveling as they wouldn't be able to travel as close to stars as they can 4000 years later).

 

This means that in the SW universe some planets have stategic value-you have to enter and go thru that system in order to travel to the next as its sun is in the way. So you can have a 'front', what they mean are systems that an enemy has to pass thru in order to get any closer to other systems. It is true that a military ship might opt to make into deep space to bypass a system, such jumps would not take them very far and if the hyperdrive fails the chances of anyone finding them to rescue them are very faint.

[Calax]

and what happens if instead of stopping you just keep going right on through the place?

 

Also as others have pointed out Vodo Sisko Baas trained three of the leaders of the Jedi and Sith during the sith war ON dantoinne. The planet was also inhabated so it had known. Unless it decided to pull a Naboo and utterly disappear after a certain point

[Fr]

You all seems to forget the fact that (If LS) Malak uses the

to fuel his health and taunt Revan at the Star Forge

[Darth Mortis]

and what happens if instead of stopping you just keep going right on through the place?

 

You get pulled out of Hyperspace and back into normal space. If the object happends to be something like a blackhole (ultra high gravity) then you could get caught in the gravity well and be unable to escape-which is to say you are dead. Most ships in the films era and beyond seem to have a saftey system build into their hyperdrives so that ships will drop out of hyperspace before you get to deep into the gravity well. While a ship with a fast enough hyperdrive could, in theory, ignore the gravity of a planet. Attempting to fly though it would destroy the ship. (There is, presumably, a limit to how large something needs to be to effect ships in hyperspace).

 

You also can't enter hyperspace when your inside a gravity well. This btw is the reason why the Imperial Interdictor cruisers in the EU where developed-they create an artifical gravity field which drags ships out of hyperspace and prevents them from re-entering hyperspace to escape. (One of the other tasks Interdictors performed was to drag ships into normal space for customs inspection, this in turn applies that ships travel along well known flight paths-Hyperspace routes).

[Calax]

and what happens if instead of stopping you just keep going right on through the place?

 

You get pulled out of Hyperspace and back into normal space. If the object happends to be something like a blackhole (ultra high gravity) then you could get caught in the gravity well and be unable to escape-which is to say you are dead. Most ships in the films era and beyond seem to have a saftey system build into their hyperdrives so that ships will drop out of hyperspace before you get to deep into the gravity well. While a ship with a fast enough hyperdrive could, in theory, ignore the gravity of a planet. Attempting to fly though it would destroy the ship. (There is, presumably, a limit to how large something needs to be to effect ships in hyperspace).

 

You also can't enter hyperspace when your inside a gravity well. This btw is the reason why the Imperial Interdictor cruisers in the EU where developed-they create an artifical gravity field which drags ships out of hyperspace and prevents them from re-entering hyperspace to escape. (One of the other tasks Interdictors performed was to drag ships into normal space for customs inspection, this in turn applies that ships travel along well known flight paths-Hyperspace routes).

Depends... In ye olde days a place like dantooine would be a waystation because it's a gateway planet, you could easily have found a hyperspace route to several other systems, AND dantooines Economy is based upon trade, making it fairly well known but not a planet of military significance. But Malak would know the planet had significance because he and Revan had found the star map there.

 

Interdicters are an entirly different matter, They are designed to drag somthing from hyperspace by increasing it's own mass or the mass of somthing else to the point where it's gravitational pull is equivalent to that of a small planet. Now in the "skywalker years" the problem is that hyperspace routs are calculated by a computer taking all known information about the route between your target coords and your current coords and finding a path, rather than the simple use what's there.

 

The customs for interdictors thing works because they simply pick two high trade planets, put themselves in the center of the shortest route between the two points and wait, because a nav computer would calculate the fastest possible route. Now pirates and smugglers have an easy way to get around this in that they simply tell the nav comp to make a course that would make a two part journey (the Waypoint being a spot of dead space) and thus they would get around the interdictor.

 

I suppose the problem we've both been having is we're applying Pre nav comp and OT concepts to eachother. Your saying that the only way is to use well documented hyperspace routes to travel between two points because these are the only ways that are safe and you won't die. I'm stating that this is a fallicy because in the OT years nav comps could presumably plot you a course that could take you in a spiral around the galaxy and never hit a point where you get yanked out of Hyperspace due to a large amount of mass.

 

Both points are valid but only at certain times, Yours only really works before advaced computers were able to plot out the area and figure out ways around the mass rather than "go in that direction and wait until you hit a mass shadow" Mine works later because you simply plot a course around any possible mass shadows.

[Darth Mortis]

Interdicters are an entirly different matter, They are designed to drag somthing from hyperspace by increasing it's own mass or the mass of somthing else to the point where it's gravitational pull is equivalent to that of a small planet. Now in the "skywalker years" the problem is that hyperspace routs are calculated by a computer taking all known information about the route between your target coords and your current coords and finding a path, rather than the simple use what's there.

 

Using Interdictors might not have been the best example to use, such technology doesn't seem to exist in the KOTOR era. I was only using them to indicate that using such ships to pull civilian ships out of hyperspace to inspect them implies that they tend to travel along fixed routes.

 

Now pirates and smugglers have an easy way to get around this in that they simply tell the nav comp to make a course that would make a two part journey (the Waypoint being a spot of dead space) and thus they would get around the interdictor.

 

Agreed, and it would explain why there are smugglers and pirates in the SW universe. However it should be remembered that smuggling is a high risk-high profit venture so they might be more willing to take the chance that they will run into trouble off the routes, and hence beyond any hope of rescue. Smugglers also seem to be more interested in moving small amounts of high value cargo-consider that the Ebon Hawk is a smugglers ship and seems to have bugger all cargo space. Everything else is placed aside for increasing the size of the engains. Smuggler ships seem, as a result, to be built for high speed, and since the speed of the ship denotes how close you can get to a gravity well before being pulled back to normal space this would allow them to cut corners (or rather systems) and take more direct routes. (Of course having said this I do have to point out that is does seem strange that civilians would have faster ships than the military...). There would also be systems where there simply are no alternate routes, either because the area around it has not been explored enough and could contain a neutron star or blackhole which isn't giving off anything that would help to detect it. Or because there are a number of other stars close by which limits navigation.

 

I suppose the problem we've both been having is we're applying Pre nav comp and OT concepts to eachother. Your saying that the only way is to use well documented hyperspace routes to travel between two points because these are the only ways that are safe and you won't die. I'm stating that this is a fallicy because in the OT years nav comps could presumably plot you a course that could take you in a spiral around the galaxy and never hit a point where you get yanked out of Hyperspace due to a large amount of mass.

 

Not exactly, sometimes I'm not clear when I post. The well documented routes would be used because it would be faster to calculate a hyperspace jump, and because it could be assumed take the most direct route between systems. Ships would take routes that keep them as close to inhabited, or at least habitable, systems just in case the hyperdrive decides to fail at some point. That way you know that there is a good chance someone will pick up a distress call. While it would be possible to navigate around without running into gravity wells, you first have to know where they are. One of the reasons why there are routes is because you know exactly what happens to be in the way, off the routes things become less clear and there are things that could create a gravity well but which are very hard to detect. A black hole would be a prime example, unless it is drawing in matter and emmiting radiation it would to totaly invisiable until you run into it.

 

Going off the Rogue squadron books it seems that hyperspace navigation goes like this;

 

Enter your starting and ending locations into the computer.

 

The computer looks at the navigation charts, these charts show all the gravity wells that have been mapped between the two locations. and their strength.

 

The computer compares the speed your ship will be traveling in hyperspace with the strength of the gravity wells that are in the way. It will also, no doubt, factor in systems you want to avoid-say an enemy stronghold-and a route that would allow you to call for help if something goes wrong.

 

The computer gives a flight path, not just in hyperspace but also in normal space. You fly along this line at a set speed until the timer tells you to activate the hyperdrive. A few minutes before you reach your destination the computer sounds a warning, when it counts down you deactivate the hyperdrive, bringing your ship back into normal space close to your destination.

 

The principals behind this should be exactly the same through out the Starwars eras. The only things that would have any effect on the routes would be;

 

Speed of the ship (s)-it could be assumed that the film era ships are faster and could get closer to gravity wells without getting dragged into normal space. This would allow them to bypass some systems and take more direct routes than ships could manage 4000 years before. It would in any case be very strange if hyperdrive speed hadn't increase in 4000 years.

 

Exploration-Some areas of the galaxy would have been better mapped in the film eras than 4000 years before. This could be ships going out and having a look to see if there is anything between two locations, or most likley observations taken from nearby systems to see if there is anything to show that there might be an unknown gravity field in the area.

 

The power of the navigation computers would be largely irrelivent. More powerful computers would be able to make the calculations faster, they might even be slightly more accurate and allow ships to take routes slightly closer to a star which would decrease the distance travelled. And they could most likely calculate multiple jumps-A-B, B-C, C-D etc at the same time. But they wouldn't alter the basic principals of navigation.

[Calax]

Why would you stick to a known hyperspace route when your running around with a couple of hundred ships, one of which you KNOW would be able to hear you if somthing went wrong.

 

Stackpole makes a point in each of his books to say that in space there is no concept of a front. Instead you find the supply depots and attack them, Dantoiine would probably be considered a Supply depot at the very least becasue of it's relative closeness to occupied systems.

[Kyp Torvyn]

My only explanation is trickery. A Sith tactic to break Bastilla, and scare Jedi into falling. He had to know the Enclave was their, he had trained their and recruited for the war their. Another possibility wast hat the Jedi momentarily left the planet to hide elsewhere their secret enclave before moving back. Doubtful though. My guess is possibly a simple mistake in the writing team. Despite this infraction, It is easy for the game player to still hypothesize numerous possibilities.