"Why I Hate Fantasy RPGs"

[Llyranor]

The argument against that is that learning shouldn't *have* to involve tedium. Just claiming that is really a crutch. Just use a compelling approach to it instead of just doing what everyone else does and ranting about it, Mr. Vogel. No offense.

 

How does fantasy have ANYTHING related to tedium?

[Slowtrain]

The first horrible thing. Fantasy role-playing games are unique among computer games in one thing: they are fundamentally about starting out weak and learning to be strong. And that learning process generally involves a lot of tedium.

 

Fallout, Deus Ex, and System Shock are also like this.

 

 

Which is of course because one of the main points behind playing a CRPG is to develop the PC how you want. If someone doesn't want to do this, then they probably shouldn't be playing a crpg. An adventure game or action game of some sort shuld be more to their taste.

 

It's like me saying I hate sports game because I hate playing sports. well, duh. Which is probably why I choose not to play them.

[Slowtrain]

The argument against that is that learning shouldn't *have* to involve tedium. Just claiming that is really a crutch. Just use a compelling approach to it instead of just doing what everyone else does and ranting about it, Mr. Vogel. No offense.

 

How does fantasy have ANYTHING related to tedium?

 

 

Besides what constitues a tedious task is totally subjective in the first place. I find anything related to sports mionstriously tedious because its not the least bit interesting to me. It doesn't however mean that sports are tedious by nature.

[Llyranor]

Just because one can enjoy RPGs doesn't mean one can't call out the flaws that infest a lot of them.

 

Again, learning != tedium.

 

Did wiping out that goblin cave really contribute in any way to developing the protagonist roleplaying-wise?

[Llyranor]

Besides what constitues a tedious task is totally subjective in the first place. I find anything related to sports mionstriously tedious because its not the least bit interesting to me. It doesn't however mean that sports are tedious by nature.

Heh. Guess so.

 

I'd have less of an issue with long dungeons if I found the combat systems compelling enough to warrant it. I seem to notice this applies a lot more to the more recent one.

[Slowtrain]

Just because one can enjoy RPGs doesn't mean one can't call out the flaws that infest a lot of them.

 

Again, learning != tedium.

 

Did wiping out that goblin cave really contribute in any way to developing the protagonist roleplaying-wise?

 

I agree. I've never played a flawless game.

 

But wiping out a goblin cave can be quite fun and enjoyable even if there is little or no larger context for it. There's no real connection between a subjective thing like fun and enjoyment and any sense of a flawed game.

 

Something isn't neccesarily flawed simply because it doesn't interest them.

[Xard]

People read long novels over a of period of weeks though, and don't seem to lose the impact of the book.

Long novels tend to contain a lot more than movies. But then if I start a book, I prefer to finish it without a break, if possible. I guess that is just my take on entertainment media.

 

Besides, games have more in common with movies than books

Edited February 16, 2007 by Xard

[Slowtrain]

Besides what constitues a tedious task is totally subjective in the first place. I find anything related to sports mionstriously tedious because its not the least bit interesting to me. It doesn't however mean that sports are tedious by nature.

Heh. Guess so.

 

I'd have less of an issue with long dungeons if I found the combat systems compelling enough to warrant it. I seem to notice this applies a lot more to the more recent one.

 

 

Its that darn real time with pause!

[Diamond]

But wiping out a goblin cave can be quite fun and enjoyable even if there is little or no larger context for it. There's no real connection between a subjective thing like fun and enjoyment and any sense of a flawed game.

I guess here is the deal. The guy was "wiping out goblin caves" for 23 years (or so he says). I'd kill myself long before that.

[Hurlshort]

You know, right now I'm working hard in a MMO to reach a certain crafting level. It's frustrating and tedious, as well as a bit buggy. But if it were easy and quick, I would not have a sense of accomplishment at the end. Eventually I'll reach a point where the sense of accomplishment isn't worth the work, and that's when I'll stop playing. I'm not sure what the big problem is.

[Llyranor]

Just because one can enjoy RPGs doesn't mean one can't call out the flaws that infest a lot of them.

 

Again, learning != tedium.

 

Did wiping out that goblin cave really contribute in any way to developing the protagonist roleplaying-wise?

 

I agree. I've never played a flawless game.

 

But wiping out a goblin cave can be quite fun and enjoyable even if there is little or no larger context for it. There's no real connection between a subjective thing like fun and enjoyment and any sense of a flawed game.

 

Something isn't neccesarily flawed simply because it doesn't interest them.

Which is fair, of course. Choices and all.

 

The question, then, is why CRPG design dictates that this be implemented into the 'story' despite said relative lack of context.

 

Besides what constitues a tedious task is totally subjective in the first place. I find anything related to sports mionstriously tedious because its not the least bit interesting to me. It doesn't however mean that sports are tedious by nature.

Heh. Guess so.

 

I'd have less of an issue with long dungeons if I found the combat systems compelling enough to warrant it. I seem to notice this applies a lot more to the more recent one.

 

 

Its that darn real time with pause!

 

Heh, probably. I'd have enjoyed the combat parts of NWN2 a lot more (despite some of the dungeons areas being fairly repetitive) had the game been TB. Heck, most of my issues with the game's pacing would be moot. I don't even have a problem with real-time, much less real-time with pause. Heck, many of my favorite combat systems are real-time. It's just the way they've been implemented in recent CRPGs that irks me, even more so post-IE (which weren't gems themselves in that area). To each their own.

[Llyranor]

You know, right now I'm working hard in a MMO to reach a certain crafting level. It's frustrating and tedious, as well as a bit buggy. But if it were easy and quick, I would not have a sense of accomplishment at the end. Eventually I'll reach a point where the sense of accomplishment isn't worth the work, and that's when I'll stop playing. I'm not sure what the big problem is.

It doesn't have to be easy and quick, but why does it have to be frustrating and tedious?

 

I do enough level grinding in real-life for real-time gold

Edited February 16, 2007 by Llyranor

[Darth Drabek]

I love playing RPGs, but it's a lot tougher to fit them into my life these days. Hell, I wish I had time to play RPGs more often, because I love developing a character step by step -- or dead gibberling by dead gibberling, if you will -- but the time sink is a real factor.

 

Now, I can sit down for a half hour and play one game in NBA 2K5 and that usually leaves me feeling satisfied. In an RPG, it always seems to take much longer than that to get anything resembling a feeling of accomplishment, whether from completing a quest or even finishing a dungeon.

 

I don't want developers to stop making long, epic RPGs (fantasy or otherwise), as that truly is my favorite genre of videogames. However, I can get my gaming fix in other ways until another RPG comes out that will wreck my sleep schedule.

[alanschu]

I personally would love to see a return to longer games that you really get to sink your teeth into.

 

this idea that shorter games are better than longer games because they are essentially the distilled and refined essence of a longer game is bizarre.

 

 

A longer good game is better than a shorter good game in most cases. Making something long for the sake of making it longer doesn't add much IMO.

[Wistrik]

I like fantasy RPGs, but I do have some gripes against modern CRPGs:

 

- Excessive use of "go fetch" quests. (NWN's OC for example)

- Maze-like maps (IWD2 for example)

- (Re-)Spawns vs. pre-placed actors (most games)

- Forced parties (NWN2)

 

I don't mind the occasional "go fetch" quest, especially if it makes sense. I don't mind maze-like maps that are truly mazes, such as the one in Baldur's Gate, but those "let's see how many rooms and halls we can squeeze into this area" maps are annoyingly tedious (lots of the same).

 

I can understand spawns being used in older games because a typical computer couldn't handle the load of having all the actors preplaced, but that's not really a valid excuse today. Why include one of the detection spells if the player can't detect anyone who hasn't spawned yet? And I despise respawns because they ruin the feeling of accomplishment. When I take the time to clear out an area, I don't want to see a pack of monsters appear out of thin air (as a respawn rather than a magically-aided ambush) as I'm getting ready to leave. Not even rabbits repopulate that fast.

 

Forced parties is something I can understand in a very linear game, but the nonsense of forcing evil characters into a party consisting of good characters has got to stop. I don't associate with such people in my personal life, and I certainly don't want them in my virtual party. Maybe it's a funny joke to developers, but I'm not laughing.

[Cantousent]

I'm with wistrik in his every point.

[GreasyDogMeat]

I felt that way about RPGs before I played Fallout and Baldur's Gate. An RPG doesn't have to involve xp farming of the same creatures over and over or nonsense quests. In RPGs like the Baldur's Gate. KoTOR or Fallout series have excellent storytelling between decent strategic combat that, for the most part, isn't a repetitive 'wonder the wilderness killing the same creature over and over so you can reach level x and advance the story' deal.

 

It sounds to me like the guy hates japanese style RPGs, and I would have to agree with him. They are incredibly linear games with very goofy stories involving 'gaia' this and 'sun energy' that involving incredibly annoying random encounters that fire up every 5 steps. I remember trying a bit of a final fantasy game: In one dungeon alone, literally every step I'd take I'd run into a random encounter that involved the exact same group of enemies over and over.

 

Good RPGs find that perfect balance between story telling and combat, never burning you out on repetitious combat and always rewarding you wtih a good chunk of story and a plot twist here and there.

[metadigital]

You know, right now I'm working hard in a MMO to reach a certain crafting level. It's frustrating and tedious, as well as a bit buggy. But if it were easy and quick, I would not have a sense of accomplishment at the end. Eventually I'll reach a point where the sense of accomplishment isn't worth the work, and that's when I'll stop playing. I'm not sure what the big problem is.

It doesn't have to be easy and quick, but why does it have to be frustrating and tedious?

 

I do enough level grinding in real-life for real-time gold

[Dark_Raven]

The myth that games are - RPGs or otherwise - are shorter now than before is just that, a myth.

 

And, fantasy RPGs rock.

 

Period.

Of course they are short. Less places to explore, less side quests to do compared to older games.

 

R00fles!

[Dark_Raven]

- Excessive use of "go fetch" quests. (NWN's OC for example)

- Maze-like maps (IWD2 for example)

- (Re-)Spawns vs. pre-placed actors (most games)

- Forced parties (NWN2)

 

Fed Ex quests don't bother me.

 

Maze like maps suck.

 

Forced parties is lame. The Kotor series and NWN2 have this stupidity and it needs to end. I choose who is in my group. Why the hell would I want someone in my party I dispise (Bishop) or someone who is hunting me and trying to kill me (GOTO)? Where the hell is the logic in that? Plus you can't kill them or force attack them.They should not be part of the plot to further along the story to begin with.

[Volourn]

"Of course they are short. Less places to explore, less side quests to do compared to older games."

 

Nope.

 

 

"Fed Ex quests don't bother me."

 

I agree. Since, pretty much every quest cna qualify for this.

 

 

"Maze like maps suck."

 

No. I love them.

 

 

"Forced parties is lame. The Kotor series and NWN2 have this stupidity and it needs to end. I choose who is in my group. Why the hell would I want someone in my party I dispise (Bishop) or someone who is hunting me and trying to kill me (GOTO)? Where the hell is the logic in that? Plus you can't kill them or force attack them.They should not be part of the plot to further along the story to begin with."

 

I agree which is why I can't be bothered to replay NWN2 OC even though I enjoyed it well enough the first time.

[LadyCrimson]

Fed Ex quests don't bother me.

 

Maze like maps suck.

 

Forced parties is lame.

I don't mind Fex Ex quests as long as they're not the only quests. I prefer a mix. Unless it's an action-RPG, where I then expect nothing but.

 

Don't like forced parties either - if a character needs to be with me for a certain quest, I'd rather they are tagged on to my original party for the duration, rather than replacing.

 

I'm not sure about maze maps - most dungeon crawl environments have always seemed like mazes to me; some annoy me, some don't.

[Diamond]

I love playing RPGs, but it's a lot tougher to fit them into my life these days. Hell, I wish I had time to play RPGs more often, because I love developing a character step by step -- or dead gibberling by dead gibberling, if you will -- but the time sink is a real factor.

 

Now, I can sit down for a half hour and play one game in NBA 2K5 and that usually leaves me feeling satisfied. In an RPG, it always seems to take much longer than that to get anything resembling a feeling of accomplishment, whether from completing a quest or even finishing a dungeon.

 

I don't want developers to stop making long, epic RPGs (fantasy or otherwise), as that truly is my favorite genre of videogames. However, I can get my gaming fix in other ways until another RPG comes out that will wreck my sleep schedule.

Couldn't describe any better. This is exactly my problem right now. NWN2 coming out doubled my caffeine intake for a couple of weeks.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Diamond

[Calax]

Ya know.. I think it'd be interesting if a game started you out strong. But most of your quests required brain power rather than brawn.

 

I can understand his thing about FFXII. It's a LONG game that requires a heck of a lot of work. But it's also more complex than most religions.

 

One of the biggest things that bothers me in RPGs in general, is that when you fight a party member... they are incredibly good. but when they decide to hop into your party, the "forget" everything they knew and can hardly take a hit.

[LadyCrimson]

One of the biggest things that bothers me in RPGs in general, is that when you fight a party member... they are incredibly good. but when they decide to hop into your party, the "forget" everything they knew and can hardly take a hit.

You noticed that too?

I think there was a game or two where that didn't seem to be the case, but it's a pretty prevalent thing. It amuses me more than bothers most of the time, but definitely non-sensical and a can take you out of the moment sort of thing.