United States healthcare at its finest

[thepixiesrock]

It's true Volourn. After all, Hades has visited every hospital and met every doctor in the US. He has informed and well researched opinions.

[Volourn]

"What do you know about American healthcare anyway, Canadian?"

 

I know enough that such blatant white washing is most likely garbage.

 

And, like the AMERIKAN judge, Judge Judy says, if it sounds like bullcrap it most likely is and what youa re claiming - that all Amerikan doctors and hospitals only care about money - most certainly sound slike a big pile of poo poo and hence is totally unbelievable.

 

 

 

"It's true Volourn. After all, Hades has visited every hospital and met every doctor in the US. He has informed and well researched opinions."

 

Yeah, he may be Amerikan, and I may be Kanadian; but in all likelyhood he;'s probably encountered maybe a handful of Amerikan doctors than I have.. unless he is so unhealthy he needs to see the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of doctors that are to be found in the US.

 

R00fles!

 

 

Nah, instead of relying solely on Visc's 'experiences'; I'll rely on what little common sense I actually have. I'm more likely to be right that way.

Edited February 11, 2007 by Volourn

[DeathScepter]

Right now, I do smell a lot of bull****

[Sand]

I don't even know why I bother. Okay, folks, let you guys live in a world of sweet smelling roses where nothing ever goes wrong and everyone is treat ever so kindly! Go an d live in your ever cheery fantasy world!

[~Di]

There are caring, professional medical folks, and there are narcisstic, money-grubbing medical folk. The same can be said of nearly every profession on the planet, frankly. The fact remains that the horrific and criminal manner in which these particular medical personnel handled these people is NOT public policy in the medical community. Period. For you to use a couple of illegal incidents to indict millions of health-care providers is like saying that because one convenience store clerk embezzled funds from the cash register, ALL convenience store clerks are therefore thieves.

 

Look, I think health care in America has a long way to go... although I sure don't want it to go the way of so many countries with nationalized health care where, for example, the wait to get an infected, impacted wisdom tooth removed is 18 months! However, health care in the USA varies widely depending upon where one lives. In border states, for example, it's estimated that between 45% and 75% of hospital childbirth cases are illegal aliens. Since federal law does not allow hospitals to (A) turn away emergency medical cases, regardless of ability to pay; or (B) inquire as to the legal status of patients, literally hundreds of medical facilities in border areas have gone bankrupt and closed down completely. The result is that both medical care and health insurance in those states is much higher than the national average.

 

So let's not just toss out simplistic allegations about overtly complex situations, m'kay?

[Sand]

It is so nice that you have such positive experiences with those of the healthcare profession, Di. I am betting you have insurance and/or a good chunk of money. I on the other hand do not and not have the wonderful experiences that you have had.

[kirottu]

Aww...

[Dark_Raven]

One of those few times where America needs to be more Socialist, this being healthcare.

[taks]

If they can get away with it I have no doubt this would be the norm. In our current system only the rich and those who can afford insurance get adequate healthcare. Every hospital, except the one ran by the military when I was in the Navy, was more concerned about how you were going to pay than what was wrong with you.

i'm sorry to say sand, but this is utter bull****. first of all, nearly EVERYONE gets emergency healthcare, with very few exceptions. you read a news article on CNN and automatically assume this is the gospel of the way things work, rather than the exception.

 

anybody that works full-time is offered healthcare. also, define rich. really, individual healthcare is only about $200-$300/month for something similar to what is offered by most companies. my current individual plan, btw, is $131/month for both my son and i (my wife is high risk so she's significantly more expensive). certainly i have a high deductible, but dropping the deductible to say, $1000, would only double my cost (a little more) to just under $300/month for two people.

 

so there goes your "only the rich and those who can afford insurance" argument.

 

certainly hospitals are concerned about how you are going to pay, they are businesses you know. however, nearly every major city has at least one public hospital that will accept anyone, and wory about the payment later.

 

do a little research and try to rely on news articles a little less and you won't look like such the fool as you always do.

 

taks

[taks]

One of those few times where America needs to be more Socialist, this being healthcare.

sorry, but that's nonsense. anything that is more socialist will bankrupt itself eventually. every where else in the world that has socialized healthcare either has sub-standard care, or they're dropping benefits in order to be able to afford it. there's a reason people come to the US for their healthcare in dire situations... it's just plain better.

 

taks

[mkreku]

sorry, but that's nonsense. anything that is more socialist will bankrupt itself eventually. every where else in the world that has socialized healthcare either has sub-standard care, or they're dropping benefits in order to be able to afford it. there's a reason people come to the US for their healthcare in dire situations... it's just plain better.

 

taks

So you claim US healthcare is better than Swedish healthcare? Ok, provide me a link.

 

You claim every socialist country will bankrupt itself eventually? Last time I checked, Swedish finances were much healthier than US. But go ahead and provide a link to prove that too.

 

Or are you talking out of your arse about stuff you know nothing about?

 

"do a little research and try to rely on news articles a little less and you won't look like such the fool as you always do."

 

Sigh.. Irony, I guess.

 

 

 

Edit: Just a quick tidbit I found very easily (on Google):

 

"Western Europe, Not the US, Ranks as World's Healthiest Region

 

Western Europe is the healthiest region in the world, new rankings of health systems show. But the survey, which places the US and UK relatively low, suggests that spending a lot of money is not enough to guarantee high standards of health.

 

The survey of the health status of people in 175 countries, released on Monday, ranked nine Western European countries in its top 10, with Belgium heading the list followed by Iceland, the Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Austria, Sweden, Italy and Norway.

 

Australia is the highest placed non-Western European country in the list, in joint tenth place with Germany and Denmark. The United States was ranked 17th, just behind Israel, while the UK came in 23rd place, after Greece.

 

The index measured the health status of individuals by looking at the amount each country spent on its people's health and at health indicators including life expectancy, infant immunization rates and death rates of mothers and babies. It was developed by World Markets Research Center, a company that analyses businesses.

 

Source: http://www.mercola.com/2002/apr/10/health.htm (I couldn't find the original one)

 

Iceland, Sweden and Norway are socialist countries. Second, seventh and ninth place in the world. Pretty good for a couple of bankrupt countries with sub-standard healthcare, huh?

Edited February 11, 2007 by mkreku

[~Di]

Oh good god. I could have predicted it. Now we're into the "my country is better than your country" bullpucky.

 

Sand: Please quote whatever line in my post that said I personally have had "such positive experiences with those of the healthcare profession", or implied that I have had "wonderful experiences." I simply said that you were painting every health care worker with the same brush used by a couple of idiots who were performing an illegal and immoral act. Which you were. Now stop trying to turn an issue-based discussion into fabrication about me personally, okay?

Edited February 11, 2007 by ~Di

[Sand]

Go go Mkreku!

[Sand]

anybody that works full-time is offered healthcare.

 

Nice lie, Taks. I work 40 hours a week and no, I am not offered healthcare.

[metadigital]

The UK, which invented free healthcare at the point of access, is now seriously talking about how to MANAGE the rationing process. That is the current Labour (i.e. left-wing / socialist / etc) government. (It has been one of their sacred cows since its inception after WW2.)

 

Because it is a rationing process. Either the doctors have to ration treatment, or a political organization has to. Because it is not possible to provide universal free healthcare for every illness and injury.

[taks]

You claim every socialist country will bankrupt itself eventually? Last time I checked, Swedish finances were much healthier than US. But go ahead and provide a link to prove that too.

actually, last time i checked sweden announced they were cutting back on benefits to be more competitive.

 

also, i never said the US was a model non-socialist society. why don't you pay attention to what i DID say, not what you think i said.

 

Or are you talking out of your arse about stuff you know nothing about?

apparently you don't even know what i said, so who's talking out his arse?

 

Sigh.. Irony, I guess.

no kidding.

 

Western Europe is the healthiest region in the world, new rankings of health systems show. But the survey, which places the US and UK relatively low, suggests that spending a lot of money is not enough to guarantee high standards of health.

never commented on health, i only commented on healthcare. the US has the best overall health care in the world, which is why people come here, not everywhere else.

 

The survey of the health status of people in 175 countries, released on Monday, ranked nine Western European countries in its top 10, with Belgium heading the list followed by Iceland, the Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Austria, Sweden, Italy and Norway.

 

Australia is the highest placed non-Western European country in the list, in joint tenth place with Germany and Denmark. The United States was ranked 17th, just behind Israel, while the UK came in 23rd place, after Greece.

curious what their metrics are...

 

The index measured the health status of individuals by looking at the amount each country spent on its people's health and at health indicators including life expectancy, infant immunization rates and death rates of mothers and babies. It was developed by World Markets Research Center, a company that analyses businesses.[/i]

oops, it's based on how much they spend? funny, sounds like a socialist ideal to me.

 

Iceland, Sweden and Norway are socialist countries. Second, seventh and ninth place in the world. Pretty good for a couple of bankrupt countries with sub-standard healthcare, huh?

the US system is better, sorry to say. healthcare in the US is runaway expensive because, in part (note i say IN PART), we have to help support all the even more socialist lazy-ass countries that refuse to pay market rate for things developed here (like drugs, for example).

 

taks

[taks]

anybody that works full-time is offered healthcare.

 

Nice lie, Taks. I work 40 hours a week and no, I am not offered healthcare.

are you considered a full-time employee, working all your hours for one company?

 

taks

[Sand]

Yes.

[taks]

you should check your state labor laws, but most that i know of require full-time employees be offered some sort of health care plan.

 

also, be careful next time you call someone a liar, it makes you look pretty stupid since i can guarantee you can't back that claim up.

 

taks

[LadyCrimson]

In california, employers with less than a certain number of workers are exempt from having to provide minimum health care. I don't know what that number was in the past - I think a bit higher - but I think due to a recent act it's now been decreased to under 20(exempt) and 49 (can be exempt). I don't know if there are nitpicky qualifier details beyond that.

 

At any rate, my point is that there are companies who may not/will not provide insurance if they can get away with it/can't afford it if they fall under certain parameters. Perhaps Sand's situation falls into one of those. The self-employed - of which my spouse is one - are also in unique sitations. Full-time is not neccesarily automatic company-paid-for healthcare in all states, at least.

 

Edit: Not to mention, just because you have some insurance, doesn't mean you can afford the care required. So many deductions and % rates and all that, many still end up paying/owing huge amounts.

[taks]

yeah, i'll buy that. small companies cannot always afford it. mine has 7 employees and we only offer a medical reimbursement plan, which actually works out better than the corporate health insurance from my previous employer. the overall benefit is less (from the insurance) but it will cost me less out of pocket in the end.

 

taks

[LadyCrimson]

My husband is pretty convinced that before this law was voted on (I'm not even sure exactly if it's in actual effect or not), California had no rquirements at all. -- I'd have to resarch that - I haven't worked in years and really don't know the policies, but I think a lot of people do assume it's mandatory, when it's not/wasn't.

 

It was mostly company/union policy/incentive, not state-required. McDonalds, for instance, has never given health insurance to it's grunts here, as far as I know.

 

Quick Google about that recent Calif. Act: http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20031117yb01p1.htm

[Volourn]

"Go go Mkreku!"

 

Move to Sweden.

[mkreku]

You claim every socialist country will bankrupt itself eventually? Last time I checked, Swedish finances were much healthier than US. But go ahead and provide a link to prove that too.

actually, last time i checked sweden announced they were cutting back on benefits to be more competitive.

 

also, i never said the US was a model non-socialist society. why don't you pay attention to what i DID say, not what you think i said.

Where did I claim you said the US was a model non-socialist society? I provided my quote above. Read it again and more carefully this time. Or go back to my former post. Stop putting your words in my.. uh.. posts. I claimed no such thing.

 

You, on the other hand, claim every socialist country will bankrupt itself eventually. Sweden has been a socialist country for almost 100 years now. Our finances are very healthy. Sweden is doing very good right now. Now please back up YOUR claim with something substantial, like a link. Just your fanatic right-wing word isn't exactly good enough here.

 

(Source for my claim about Swedish finances: http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/7341/a/73669 )

 

Here's a cute little link to illustrate US finances (to get you started): http://www.americaneconomicalert.org/ticker_home.asp

 

Western Europe is the healthiest region in the world, new rankings of health systems show. But the survey, which places the US and UK relatively low, suggests that spending a lot of money is not enough to guarantee high standards of health.

never commented on health, i only commented on healthcare. the US has the best overall health care in the world, which is why people come here, not everywhere else.

Ok, so you still say the US has the best health care AND you imply that the quality of healthcare is somehow not connected to the general health of the people?

 

Please tell me how you'd measure the quality of health care if not by measuring rates of death, infant deaths and stuff like that?

 

This time provide some sort of [evidence]. Until you do you're just [making statements and can be called a fabulist].

 

The index measured the health status of individuals by looking at the amount each country spent on its people's health and at health indicators including life expectancy, infant immunization rates and death rates of mothers and babies. It was developed by World Markets Research Center, a company that analyses businesses.[/i]

oops, it's based on how much they spend? funny, sounds like a socialist ideal to me.

Yes, it's one factor. But here, I'll help you (since you only managed to read HALF the sentence by yourself): now try to concentrate on the bolded part. Also, notice the word "including"? That means there are more factors in the equation, as not all are listed here.

 

See? They measure how healthy the general population is. The name is a hint: HEALTHcare. You measure how well your healthcare is doing by measuring how people's general health is. Easy! If you know how to read..

 

Iceland, Sweden and Norway are socialist countries. Second, seventh and ninth place in the world. Pretty good for a couple of bankrupt countries with sub-standard healthcare, huh?

the US system is better, sorry to say. healthcare in the US is runaway expensive because, in part (note i say IN PART), we have to help support all the even more socialist lazy-ass countries that refuse to pay market rate for things developed here (like drugs, for example).

Yes, you keep claiming that. Can you point us in the direction of ANYTHING that backs up your claims? Or are you counting on the "if I repeat it enough times it might come true" effect? Oh, and your government doesn't even allow for stem cell research (because of religious crap!).. Yeah, I bet you're at the top of bioengineering research and development.. :crazy:

 

To sum it up:

 

A link to something showing that US healthcare (or the "US system") is the best in the world?

 

A link to something that shows the US "support all the even more socialist lazy-ass countries"? This might be true, I just never heard of Sweden (for example) needing any aid from the US.. I'm not really interested in discussing the US-exploited South American countries.

 

A link to something that clearly shows that every socialist country eventually bankrupts itself?

 

Come on taks, you old wind bag, you can do it!

 

 

 

Edit: A link added.

Edited February 14, 2007 by metadigital
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[Gorgon]

South Africa did the only sane thing in the situation and broke international law when it started making it's own AIDS drugs because whole generations were being lost and drug companies could only be convinced to offer a small discount that did not help make the drugs be affordable to everyone.

 

Maybe thats what he's talking about.

 

IF he is wondering why the same drugs cost more in the US than Canada, thats because the drug companies priced it that way, they don't spend anything greasing the politicians there so they have no leverage to sustain inflated prices.

Edited February 13, 2007 by Gorgon