Does Obsidian intend to make an RPG like FO?

[roshan]

But roshan, I thought you couldn't finish the game because it was so unplayable. How would you know about that? "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Because I played all the way through till almost the end of the game before quitting.

[roshan]

There are also a lot of people that just don't have the time for 40+ hour cRPG.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does that even mean? Don't have time for a 40+ hour game? Does that mean they buy Jade Empire (15 hours) and then never again buy another game because they don't have the time? Or they buy Gears of War, play it for 10 hours and then never play another game again because the don't have time? All these people not having time for a 40+ hour game only own ONE game that they've played once in their entire life because they don't have time for any more?

 

A 40+ hour game is like four Gears of War-type games. Most gamers have more than four games. I am sure they aren't planning on playing the 40+ hour game from start to finish in one sitting. 40+ hours only means more value for your money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pidesco has a point. I, for one, find myself unable to play a lot lately because of full-time employment. Heck, I have finished NWN2 only a few days ago (and at the cost of severe sleep deprivation).

 

 

And funny thing,

I remember roshan bashing FO2 for having garbage skill mechanics that doesn't offer a lot of choice and calling it a "massively flawed game". Is Fallout 1 that much different?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have never even played FO1, only FO2. By like FO, I meant with a similar style of gameplay as the Fallouts (of course, I am assuming that Fallout 1 was similar to the second game, which is not unreasonable)

 

And Fallout 2 is still my second favourite RPG, despite it having a largely meaningless character generation system.

[Sammael]

<awesome BG2 NPC analysis snipped>

 

Amen.

[Diamond]

IMO, Baldur's Gate 2 implemented companions in a nearly perfect way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd argue that. In BG2 you couldn't talk to your companions directly, the conversations were always triggered by them. IMO, it was a major flaw.

[Tigranes]

Actually, most of the time the party members were forced without having anything to do with the story.

 

You're right roshan. You do remember that I too see the forced companions in NWN2 as its biggest, yet unnecessary, flaw? I'm just saying it was the reason given, not that it was a good or valid reason.

 

I think Chris Avellone has been praised so much for PST that his success has gone to his head, and he thinks that everyone will like whatever crap he comes up with.

 

Perhaps. But it's a rather big leap to go from a generally consented analysis of a flaw in the game to, adding implicitly your own opinions and experiences with the game and your conclusions, put forward something like that. Ah well, no point pressing it, since if pressed we can always take the "MY OPINION" exit chute.

 

----------

 

I'd argue that. In BG2 you couldn't talk to your companions directly, the conversations were always triggered by them. IMO, it was a major flaw.

 

It was, and it was also something many mods rectified. But despite this flaw, which can be attributed to the age of the game, BG2 consistently had an excellent NPC model. In many ways Obsid's two games were similar to these; in some they are better; in some, they are worse. But BG2 can still give them a good fight in this arena.

 

It's a pity, too - full voiceovers can really be benefitial in this area, bringing the characters to life. BG2 had some amazing voiceovers (who wouldn't want a fully voiced Minsc, or Edwin, or Imoen, or Sarevok?), and they really do help define a character.

[kirottu]

I think Chris Avellone has been praised so much for PST that his success has gone to his head, and he thinks that everyone will like whatever crap he comes up with.

 

Perhaps. But it's a rather big leap to go from a generally consented analysis of a flaw in the game to, adding implicitly your own opinions and experiences with the game and your conclusions, put forward something like that. Ah well, no point pressing it, since if pressed we can always take the "MY OPINION" exit chute.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought it was Ferret

[aVENGER]

I have never even played FO1, only FO2. By like FO, I meant with a similar style of gameplay as the Fallouts (of course, I am assuming that Fallout 1 was similar to the second game, which is not unreasonable)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, it is. Although they share the setting and the skill system they are not all that similar. Check a few Fallout fansites like NMA or DAC and do a little research. You'll find that the majority of the people there prefer FO1 to its sequel (with right IMO).

 

I'd argue that. In BG2 you couldn't talk to your companions directly, the conversations were always triggered by them. IMO, it was a major flaw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heh, that's why I said nearly perfect. And as Tigranes mentioned, there are mods that fix that. Besides, what's the point of having the option to talk to your companions if they say the same stuff over and over again? For example, seing the line "Who are you again?" in Khelgar's dialogue near the end of the game was a huge immersion breaker for me. IMO, it's more interesting if the NPC's initiate dialogue by themselves most of the time, like in BG2, but there should also be an option for the player to talk to them and explore their character in greater depth like in PST.

[Gromnir]

joinbale npcs can be both critical and optional side quest... may have aspects thats fit into critical path, but those plot critical elements is still gonna be largely fixed... the real "meaningful" choices is gonna be available as part of the tangential and optional side quests... which is gonna result in many peoles claiming that Real choices couldn't be made.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Joinable NPCs shouldn't be critical to quests if you want to push for open gameplay (as I do).

 

And if people only feel that choices that affect The One True Plot can be "real" choices, there aren't really any games that fit the mold, including Fallout. In Fallout you could defeat the Master in a few different ways or you could "end early" by getting dipped. People seem to enjoy the amount of choice in the Fallout games despite the limited number of main plot end states, so I'm not worried about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

as to joinables, that is why we thinks they is so important... and have said so in past. joinables can be with you for entire game, and THEIR story/quest can be almost complete tangential. sure, can still contribute to critical path quest, but it can takes full 40-60 hours of gameplay to develop joinable character and however you ends up choosing to do the joinable quest need not break the critical path.

 

 

the tangential and optional side quests is where you can make the choices in a game, 'cause those choices not affect the critical path. save village from warlord? sell-out village to warlord. steal warlord's stuff and get villagers to hire you for protection, then leave. ignore the village entirely. whatever. can only do different ways if village saving quest is NOT critical to plot.

 

and we know that josh has read the complaints 'bout nwn2 and other games. 'course you is aware that a large % of people want impossible... want to choose how critical path develops... wanna break the critical path if they so desire. am certain we has seen you post at codex... this can't be news. when people on this and other boards talk 'bout THE story they ain't talking 'bout the gestalt results of combined critical path and optional quests and joinables... they is talking 'bout the critical path. had just that argument on these boards the other day.

 

"oh, sure, in your game i can sell the baker's children into slavery or smuggle them to safety if i want, but i still end up being led around by the developers for 40 hours. that sucks. why can't i choose?"

 

you want give people compelling critical path story and meaningful choices 'long the way? ok, but first you is gonna have to somehow convince people that THE story isn't what they think it is.

 

again, is the tangential and optional side quests where you can gets choices, and the more of those quests you got, the more peoples talk 'bout non-linear... even if critical path is just as fixed as in nwn2.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

I think FO2 is very different from FO1. FO2 is still good, but I think FO more focused and refined than FO2. It's also shorter. Considerably.

[Xard]

So, after hearing JE is lead designer of Alien RPG and his posts in this topic maybe get something falloutish? )

[Gromnir]

if fo were made today, it would not be so well received. when dogmeat is the "character" peoples like most, then you got some writing issues.

 

fo setting were nice, and special were, if not better than other rules systems, at least it were different. wander 'round and do whatever you want were kinda fun, right up 'til point where game sudden ends and you realize that there were a hidden timer running.

 

setting might actually have been fo's best feature... and am not sure if any major publisher would be willing to do fo kinda stuff today. can't sell your game in germany if in-game violence to children is possible. ma rating is avoided likes plague by many publishers, in spite of success of games like gta. sell a violent and adult-themed crpg is possibly getting tougher, not easier... but josh might have a better notion on that point as we is simply guessing.

 

fo were a very nice game, but just as bg gets benefit of being released at the right moment in time, and having benefit o' rosy memories to erase numerous flaws, fo got similar help.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

I agree that most gamers suffer from nostalgia when remembering how great older games were. However, when people are STILL actively playing games that were released many years ago, then I think we can safely say not only are they good enough to withstand the test of time, but they are so good that nothing better has come along to replace them. Despite technological advances out the wazoo.

 

so.

[metadigital]

So, after hearing JE is lead designer of Alien RPG and his posts in this topic  maybe get something falloutish? )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did you hear this?

[alanschu]

I meant forced party members, btw, not the number of party members. In the latter case, it would be gameplay - I believe that even with all the modificaitons, NWN2 at heart is designed to be a single-character game (they couldn't even implement drag boxes or Select All, many players play without pause, and other small things I'll go into if you want.), so that too many (i.e. 6,7...) was too ungainly; on the other hand, they did want to implement squad combat, and all that focus on party members is kinda silly if you can only carry around one or two party members.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

KOTOR is also game where you have party members, without any sort of Select All or drag boxes.

[Big Bottom]

So, after hearing JE is lead designer of Alien RPG and his posts in this topic  maybe get something falloutish? )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did you hear this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Josh confirmed it on the Something Awful forums. Good news, it's about time he saw a fully rounded project to completion. I never saw the Alien license coming though. :cool:

[Darque]

[metadigital]

[Tigranes]

KOTOR is also game where you have party members, without any sort of Select All or drag boxes.

 

Rather, both KOTORs were designed so that the primary option was to control one character while your companions ran on autopilot; the other, slghtly less supported option was to pause and control them all with autoqueues. The camera and so forth made it difficult to control everyone in real-time, which was my point. It was exactly the same as NWN1; it wasn't designed to control a large party like you did with IE, it was designed for pause-and-cumbersome-control or letting them autopilot.

[Deraldin]

KOTOR is also game where you have party members, without any sort of Select All or drag boxes.

 

Rather, both KOTORs were designed so that the primary option was to control one character while your companions ran on autopilot; the other, slghtly less supported option was to pause and control them all with autoqueues. The camera and so forth made it difficult to control everyone in real-time, which was my point. It was exactly the same as NWN1; it wasn't designed to control a large party like you did with IE, it was designed for pause-and-cumbersome-control or letting them autopilot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unfortunately the action queues didn't work, because the moment you switched characters the AI would overrule your choices.

[jaguars4ever]

Micromanaging could have actually worked in the KotORs if there was a dummy mode like in NWN2. That way, we might have been able to strategically position them without them instantly running back towards the selected character. <_<

[Sand]

Party control in NWN2 is far inferior to the Infinity Engine games but it is also far superior to the KotORs and NWN1.

[Deraldin]

Party control in NWN2 is far inferior to the Infinity Engine games but it is also far superior to the KotORs and NWN1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There was party control in the KotORs?

[jaguars4ever]

Party control in NWN2 is far inferior to the Infinity Engine games but it is also far superior to the KotORs and NWN1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There was party control in the KotORs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Technically, yes. But only because it was better than the "party control" system in FO aka "Hey Marcus/Ian - Burst some of that minigun/submachine gun ammo in my back why wont' yah!"

[Volourn]

"Party control in NWN2 is far inferior to the Infinity Engine games but it is also far superior to the KotORs and NWN1."

 

That's because NWN party members wer enever meant to be controlled like automataions. But, yeah, NWN2 party control > KOTORs. NWN party members were set up like the Fo games except they had (usually) better AI.

[Tigranes]

Volo, precisely. NWN party members were never meant to be controlled, and despite efforts on Obsidian's part, NWN2 was not 'naturally' optimised for such a purpose. It was better than 'tacked on' or 'forced on', though.