Romanian Man Indicted for Hacking NASA

[kumquatq3]

In a written statement, the U.S. Attorney's Office said "NASA, the Energy Department, and the Navy could not rely upon the integrity of the data on the hacked computers. Therefore, systems had to be rebuilt, and scientists and engineers had to manually communicate with spacecraft."

Hence the expenses.

 

 

Besides, hackers don't just destroy data because they can, I highly doubt he's done anything deliberately to destroy the data if he is a white hat hacker. "Loss" of data can be interpreted in many ways.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A loss is a loss

 

and since when are "hackers" so honorable? I disagree with your assumptions.

[kirottu]

and since when are "hackers" so honorable? I disagree with your assumptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since movies.

[kumquatq3]

and since when are "hackers" so honorable? I disagree with your assumptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since movies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have defeated me this day...

[~Di]

I can't believe the way some of you are excusing this guy, as if he did nothing really wrong! He hacked into government and military computers, for god sake. You're acting like all he did was tidy up those messy disks, and he ought to be put on the payroll.

 

Lemme put it to you this way: Say you come home to find that someone has broken into your house, gone through your fridge and put your leftovers in different containers, laid stuff on the counters, threw some stuff away... then went into your room and hacked into your computer just to show that he could. Would you feel mad? Violated? Would you immediately spend a fortune to have new locks and alarms installed? Would you throw all the food away, because god knows what he might have done to it? Would you change all your computer passwords, cancel all the credit cards you've used with that computer, and close your bank account? Of course you would unless you're the world's biggest fool.

 

Even if this person did nothing evil to your food, your computer, your personal information, he violated your privacy and forced you to spend enormous amounts of time and money to protect yourself from the break-in. This person is a criminal. Period.

 

I'm amazed some of you don't seem to see that... unless I'm misinterpreting what y'all have said.

[Calax]

and since when are "hackers" so honorable? I disagree with your assumptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since movies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have defeated me this day...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

also... in the future hackers will be the only thing between us and an oppressive Big Brother Tyrrany... or robots, take your pick.

[Diamond]

A loss is a loss

 

and since when are "hackers" so honorable? I disagree with your assumptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When did I say he was honourable? Yes, he is still a criminal, though I think there is a fair chance he wasn't there for the data, but most likely because of a combination of curiosity/"coolness" factor/vanity. Given the information in the article, he is not mature enough socially to be involved in commercial hacking or government conspiracies. Besides, the article made it sound like "omgz0rs! hes in ur base DESTROYING ur dataz!!11!", I figured this thread needs to be even.

 

But 54 years is waaaaay too much. A waste of brainpower. He is not a robber, he is not a murderer. He has a much better chance of becoming a productive citizen. NASA wanting him behind the bars for the rest of his life is a political statement, not a fair punishment.

 

and since when are "hackers" so honorable? I disagree with your assumptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since movies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hacking in the real world to movies is the same as climate science to "The Day After Tomorrow" (

yes, they are that retarded

).

 

 

And, Di, no, you are not misinterpreting what we said.

This guy is a wrongdoer, but he does not deserve 54 years in prison.

[Enoch]

I'm just relieved that the secret formula for Tang has not been compromised.

[metadigital]

Tell that to Mr Buttle.

[~Di]

But 54 years is waaaaay too much. A waste of brainpower. He is not a robber, he is not a murderer. He has a much better chance of becoming a productive citizen. NASA wanting him behind the bars for the rest of his life is a political statement, not a fair punishment.

...This guy is a wrongdoer, but he does not deserve 54 years in prison.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First, the guy IS a robber. He robbed the US government of hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions even, by his criminal act. Secondly, he has not be sentenced to 54 years. He hasn't even gone on trial yet, since the Romanians are trying him first for another set of crimes there. Heaven knows what sentence they may give him. Third, the USA will charge him with ten counts, approximately 5 years maximum sentence per count. Only if he is convicted on all ten counts, given the maximum sentence on each count, AND the sentences are to run consecutively rather than concurrently would he end up with the 54 years.

 

So I suggest y'all quit gnashing your teeth about how unfair American justice is until there has actually been some American justice meted out.

 

That is all.

[metadigital]

I just wish murderers and rapists sentences were of similar severity.

[~Di]

I just wish murderers and rapists sentences were of similar severity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Again, let me point out that no sentence has even been imposed here.

 

Murderers (not so much rapists, unfortunately) do have rather severe penalties. A single count of murder usually carries a 25-to-life sentence; ten counts of murder usually carries the death penalty. Unless, of coures, it's just a husband murdering his wife, in which case he'll probably be out in seven years.

[Musopticon?]

I just wish murderers and rapists sentences were of similar severity.

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Again, let me point out that no sentence has even been imposed here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, the existence of the possibility that he might spend half a century in prison is not ridiculous to you? I for one think it is way of the line. I can understand large corporations making statements with dissident convicted to decade-long rehabilitations, but this is insane.

[~Di]

I just wish murderers and rapists sentences were of similar severity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Again, let me point out that no sentence has even been imposed here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, the existence of the possibility that he might spend half a century in prison is not ridiculous to you? I for one think it is way of the line. I can understand large corporations making statements with dissident convicted to decade-long rehabilitations, but this is insane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So you are determined to be incensed over something that has not happened? *shrug* Fine, if all you want is to rant over possibilities, knock yourself out. BTW, while you're busy obsessing over what might happen in a future American courtroom, do you happen to know what sentence he is facing on the charges he's currently on trial for in Romania? Do you care?

[Musopticon?]

I don't care about the country he's being sentenced in. I know you have a huge grudge with people who tend to be negative with your motherland, but I'm not one of them. So, off with the wink.

 

Let's say he'd get convicted on two of the charges in America(we are talking about NASA here, afterall. And the American court system*), he could be facing, what, 26 years in prison? Over what? Security breach? You still don't think that is excessive?

 

 

*it's vicious

[~Di]

I don't care about the country he's being sentenced in.

 

Apparently not.

 

I know you  have a huge grudge with people who tend to be negative with your motherland, but I'm not one of them. So, off with the wink.

 

No, no, you've got it wrong! I love people who hate my country and use one standard for it and another standard for the rest of the world. Honest. I love people who, when cornered on issues, lash out with personal attacks instead! And I love people who ignore their own bigotry to blame anyone with the gall to point that bigotry out. Really.

 

Sarcasm aside, there's no need to get personal. The fact that you are incensed about a vague possibility of some future sentence being guessed at by journalists who are merely reading the min-max of the judicial system without factoring in any of the mitigating aspects that will be considered at trial... yet are not the least bit concerned about what is happening to this same individual under the Romanian justice system which is trying him now is to me rather telling, to say the least.

 

Let's say he'd get convicted on two of the charges in America(we are talking about NASA here, afterall. And the American court system*), he could be facing, what, 26 years in prison? Over what? Security breach? You still don't think that is excessive?

 

He is being charged with 9 counts of computer intrusion, and one count of conspiracy. The conspiracy charge is the big one. From what I'm hearing, there may be more arrests because this little club of his has been targeting US governmental computers for years, and has logged over 150 break-ins. The counts of computer intrusion probably have minimal jail time per count. The conspiracy charge is the one that has heavy-duty sentence possibilities. So it doesn't matter how many of the charges he is convicted of so much as it depends upon which of the charges he is convicted of... and whether they run consecutively or concurrently (which I've said before, and which you have conveniently ignored).

 

Part of the justice system is punishment; part of it is deterrent. I suspect the authorities have not enjoyed having a bunch of geeks messing around with computers filled with national security stuff AND which control people's lives, ala the Space Program. I personally don't want to see a shuttle crash and burn because a bunch of computer geeks thought it would be cute to write "Kilroy was here" or some other stupid thing on computers monitoring its vital functions. So no, I don't think a severe sentence is out of line here. These individuals have been deliberately targeting US computers for their own enjoyment for years, and in doing so have cost ME and my fellow citizens major dollars, plus have endangered the security of 300 million people. That's worth more than a slap on the wrist if for no other reason than to make the rest of the weenie-wagging geeks of the world think twice about trying the same thing.

 

I seriously doubt this guy will get anything close to the maximum sentence. He'll probably strike a deal with the prosecutor long before any trial. But if I'm wrong and he gets 54 years, he'll be out in a third that time due to our lenient (yes, lenient) good behavior laws. And I won't shed a tear either way.

[Diamond]

Part of the justice system is punishment; part of it is deterrent.  I suspect the authorities have not enjoyed having a bunch of geeks messing around with computers filled with national security stuff AND which control people's lives, ala the Space Program.  I personally don't want to see a shuttle crash and burn because a bunch of computer geeks thought it would be cute to write "Kilroy was here" or some other stupid thing on computers monitoring its vital functions.  So no, I don't think a severe sentence is out of line here.  These individuals have been deliberately targeting US computers for their own enjoyment for years, and in doing so have cost ME and my fellow citizens major dollars, plus have endangered the security of 300 million people.  That's worth more than a slap on the wrist if for no other reason than to make the rest of the weenie-wagging geeks of the world think twice about trying the same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Any mission-critical system that is even remotely related to nation's security MUST be disconnected from any public networks. Physically. So no, the Shuttle won't blow up, nuclear war is not going to start, noone out of 300 million people is going to get hurt. These systems are likely to provide surveillance data for scientists, which means scientists were unable to get their data remotely for a time.

 

So, yes, the sentence is (or rather, would be) too severe.

 

 

PS

All shuttles that blew up in US were the results of piss-poor management decisions.

 

PPS

And no, it was not a robbery.

Edited December 5, 2006 by Diamond

[Guest The Architect]

I agree with Musopticon? Sure, it's unlikely that this hacker will get sentenced to 54 years in prison, but 54 years as a maximum penalty is ridiculously over the top. Sure, the guy should go to jail. Hacking is a serious crime, but to be sentenced for more than a decade? That's just stupid if you ask me.

 

However, if he wanted to avoid getting into this mess in the first place, he would never have tried to hack into NASA.

Edited December 5, 2006 by The Architect

[Walsingham]

I think it's fairly obvious that they will try to set a high tariff on the crime, since this is one where a penalty may be seen as a deterrent. Such a high penalty can also be used to frighten later defendants into plea bargaining. Which in a hard to prosecute case like hacking, is no bad thing.

[~Di]

Geez, some of you are simply determined to ignore anything that doesn't support your personal outrage. I wish Grommy or some other lawyer would chime in here. If I'm wrong, he could point out where I'm misinterpreting the law, and if I'm right, maybe y'all would listen to him. Meanwhile, I'll try this again one last time.

 

The 54-year maximum is what journalists have said by adding together the maximum sentence for all 9 counts, and presuming they would run consecutively (which is not always the case) rather than concurrently (which is not infrenquently done). So your outrage is premature.

 

Each count of computer hacking probably has a light min-max (relatively speaking). There are nine such counts. The conspiracy charge, however, is a major felony. It probably has a maximum sentence of at least 2-3 decades. There is one such count. Conspiracy is a big deal. Breaking into government computers is a big deal. It wasn't just NASA; it was also the US military and at least 150 other governmental computer systems. Even if no data was touched (which is not the case), those breakins cost nearly two million bucks to repair the damage and the potential damage done. So your outrage is misplaced.

 

It will take years before there will be any trial here in the USA, because it will take years for his current Romanian computer hacking charges to be resolved. Also, there's no assurance that Romania will extradict this guy, so he may never be held accountable for his actions on this side of the pond. So your outrage may be useless.

 

Even if he is extradicted years from now, he will in all probability strike a deal with the prosecutor on at least the conspiracy charge, and never see the inside of a courtroom. So your outrage will have been in vain.

 

That is all. Really.

 

[thepixiesrock]

They are using the number 54 for the purpose of argument, because that was the number given at the beginning. You're completely right, he probably won't get that, but we don't know what he will get, and since this was the number given, then that's the number most people are using. Even still, nobody is saying he is going to get that sentance, they are just saying how outragious they feel that sentance would be if that was the case, they are taking it hypothetically. Your outrage at their outrage is misplaced.

[~Di]

Okey-dokey, let's analyze that big, bad number 54. Let's say that the maximum sentence for each count of hacking is only about 3 years. So 9 counts of hacking x 3 years = 27 years. That leaves another 27-year maximum for a major felony, conspiracy (actually, I'm pretty sure the maximum for conspiracy is more than that, but math is math!). The more times you hack, the more counts of hacking, the more time you serve. If you conspire with others to hack, you get a big fat conspiracy which basically doubles your time. The moral of the story is not to make a club where you and others conspire to hack into other people's computers lots and lots of times. Then nobody has to ever be outraged on your behalf while ignoring the outrage of the real victims, whose computers were hacked.

 

The end.

[213374U]

Lemme put it to you this way:  Say you come home to find that someone has broken into your house, gone through your fridge and put your leftovers in different containers, laid stuff on the counters, threw some stuff away... then went into your room and hacked into your computer just to show that he could.  Would you feel mad?  Violated?  Would you immediately spend a fortune to have new locks and alarms installed?  Would you throw all the food away, because god knows what he might have done to it?  Would you change all your computer passwords, cancel all the credit cards you've used with that computer, and close your bank account?  Of course you would unless you're the world's biggest fool.

You are taking things out of context, as no individuals have actually seen their belongings or personal data messed with in any way. There is no such sense of personal distress or violation for anyone. It was just organizational damage. As much as you might dislike crime in any shape or size, appealing to emotion still makes for a fallacious argument.

 

Sure, the man needs to spend some time behind bars so he can think of something to do other than masturbation and hacking. But 54 years is still too much. Even theoretically. And no, I don't care if it's the US judicial system he's facing. My blood boils all the same when I see stuff like this happen where I live (and believe me, over here it's even worse) or elsewhere.

 

 

That is all.  Really.

Hm. That reminds me of something...

[Gromnir]

"You are taking things out of context, as no individuals have actually seen their belongings or personal data messed with in any way."

 

am not sure how you define "individual." the courts has given corporations and govt. entities almost as many legal rights as actual living people. steal from ibm or wallmart is still theft with big penalties and potential prison time... and vandalism in cyberspace is still vandalism. if these jokers commited even a dozen separate acts of theft, the punishments for those acts is gonna be added together, just as if you physically broke into wallmart a dozen different times. should not surprise anybody that we is talking big years... and just as the guy who stole from wallmart 12 times deserves 12x the prison time as somebody who did so once...

 

*shrug*

 

mail and wire fraud is where you sees really incredible potential sentences. some joker has a recorded message or mailing go out to a thousand people and each one of those mailings/calls can be carrying a substantial number of years. example: with the way the real estate market is suffering here in the States, we has seen a few fly by night lenders gets hit for bogus no-money-down loan schemes. based on wording of statute, potential prison time can run into the thousand year range real easy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[~Di]

Lemme put it to you this way:  Say you come home to find that someone has broken into your house, gone through your fridge and put your leftovers in different containers, laid stuff on the counters, threw some stuff away... then went into your room and hacked into your computer just to show that he could.  Would you feel mad?  Violated?  Would you immediately spend a fortune to have new locks and alarms installed?  Would you throw all the food away, because god knows what he might have done to it?  Would you change all your computer passwords, cancel all the credit cards you've used with that computer, and close your bank account?  Of course you would unless you're the world's biggest fool.

 

You are taking things out of context, as no individuals have actually seen their belongings or personal data messed with in any way. There is no such sense of personal distress or violation for anyone. It was just organizational damage. As much as you might dislike crime in any shape or size, appealing to emotion still makes for a fallacious argument.

 

And you are taking my analogy out of context. I was responding to those who basically said that since he didn't destroy any data, then nothing was lost. I explained in words I thought folks could relate to what costs the intrusion itself would incur even if no data was disturbed. And by the way, nobody here knows whether any data was disturbed or not. The stories I read indicated a "loss of data"... people are pretty much inferring the details, as far as I can see.

 

As for as "organizational damage" not affecting individuals, I beg to differ. Organizations consist of individuals. Lots of individuals. Over 150 government computers were hacked, including (but not limited to) the Department of Energy, the Department of Defense, NASA and various military. How do you personally know that individual's personal data on those computers has not be compromised or copied? Payroll records. Background information. Tax data. Social security numbers. Bank account numbers.

 

If the "organizational damage" causes the organization to close down for a period of time, paychecks stop for everyone who works there. That's pretty personal. And in this case, the "organizational damage" might actually have compromised national security. There really has been no confirmation by US officials of exactly what kind of damage has or has not been caused... for obvious reasons... so I think the presumption that this guy's little forays have not harmed individuals has no real basis in fact.

 

Sure, the man needs to spend some time behind bars so he can think of something to do other than masturbation and hacking. But 54 years is still too much. Even theoretically. And no, I don't care if it's the US judicial system he's facing. My blood boils all the same when I see stuff like this happen where I live (and believe me, over here it's even worse) or elsewhere.

 

Okay. How many years in jail do you think each count of computer hacking should have? Two? Three? A couple of months? Would you think more years appropriate if somebody lost a whole bunch of money? If people lost jobs? If a security breach led to people dying? Where is your personal line, and how much jail time would you recommend?

 

I'm not being facetious here, I'm genuinely curious. Punishment for various criminal behaviors, from computer hacking to murder, are often points of disagreement. 'Tis the nature of the beast. So based on your best guess of how much or how little damage he might have done (which nobody can really know until the trial, I suppose) how much time do you think this guy ought to get?

[Gromnir]

oh, and stealing from a living person's home does get you a bigger punishment... is the major diference 'tween burglary and theft. that being said, each count of grand theft in CA can be punished by up to 3 years (and CA is pretty typical.) grand theft requires monetary loss of $400 or more... or avacados. no joke.

 

am not sure, but if we recall correct, vadalism gets same felony sentencing schedule as grand theft.

 

a bunch o' break-ins will makes for big years.

 

HA! Good Fun!