50 reasons why.. part two

[Riftworm]

I think your points as a group are by and large ridiculous.  Some of the points you make are actually valid, but more for NWN2 in general rather than as a comparison between NWN and NWN2.  Overall, your presentation has made it hard to figure out which points have any real weight.

 

For instance, you rail against Obsidian because of the detail on the character clothing.  When Sawyer cites WotC's role as the licensor, you ignore him or make comments that essentially pain him a liar.  That's simply not reasonable.  This is especially true since it doesn't make sense for Sawyer to lie regarding this issue.  Moreover, what he says seems reasonable in light of other DnD games we've seen in recent years.  Blaming Obsidian because WotC doesn't allow for greater latitude doesn't just seem wrongminded.  It's small-minded.  It's petty.

 

It's a non-issue and raling about it detracts from other, legitimate points you have.

 

The weapons/armor issue is a different beast.  We could have a more or less reasonable discussion regarding this aspect.  I don't agree with you on the issue because, simply put, it's nuts to suggest that the way designers depict weapons and armor in these games is "accurate" or "realistic" at any rate.  Folks want realism, but only realism on their terms.  A number of folks running around dueling with halberds or pikes?  Sure.  :Eldar's shaking his head chuckling icon:

 

All we need now is someone to come along and say that firearms killed armor.

 

Then someone can say that cannons brought the end of fortifications.

 

Then Sawyer can jump in with both feet and lecture us at length concerning air power.

 

Realism is great, but the sheer number and types of weapons Bioware depicted in NWN1 was not particularly realistic.  It wasn't really meant to be.  That was a concession made to fun rather than realism.  Of course, in  addition to being a web-designers, graphic artists, and authories on all game design issues, I'm sure some of you folks have a PhD in history or some such.

 

...But we can't get that far.  We're too busy discussing whether or not Sawyer is telling us the truth.  You'd really better be careful about insinuating folks are lying around here.  The fact that WotC's double standard regarding the license is well known and disputing it undermines other arguments.

 

You guys don't have to die on every hill.  Choose one that makes more sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I already responded to him seeming to think I called him a "liar" in some way.

 

I was confused as to why the actual D&D 3.5 source material contradicted what he was saying.

 

 

Here was my response in case you missed it.

 

"I didn't call you a liar ever. I found the actual D&D 3.5 material to differ from your statements and found it curious. Thank you for the explanation.

 

Though I'm still confused as to why WotC would change their standards so profoundly for a PC game utilizing their rulesets, and additionally have so much say over the look of the game itself.

 

How much of that is negotiated, as I can tell from your responses they seem to have a great deal more influence over your basic design decisions than Bioware ever faced. Something I'm interested in speaking with them about."

 

Actually Vaclav pointed to some very specific comparisons of actual armor from the fourth century that NWN1 matched closer. And if I remember correctly he pointed to weapons as well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he seemned to know what he was talking about with armor that if he says NWN1's weaponry closer resembled realstic weapons I'll buy it.

 

I can't respond to you calling certain opinions "nuts" simply because you don't agree with them. If youd like to be more specific and more diplomatic then maybe we can continue.

 

 

-

Edited November 27, 2006 by Riftworm

[Tigranes]

And you totally ignored my point pages earlier that interactive games have known to be subject under different standards than of those handbooks and other D&D 3.5 material. This 'censorship' on the part of Hasbro/WoTC has been an obvious fact for over two years at least over many video game companies, so arguing with Sawyer about the inconsistencies of Hasbro's actions is both futile and pointless.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

You guys don't have to die on every hill.  Choose one that makes more sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

...couldna said it better meself, lad; well done...NWN2 ain't perfect, by a long shot (but, then again, what game is?)...a few o' yer points 'ave alot o' merit, if'n ye'd stick to 'em an' lay offa the sauce wit' the whole skin issue an' things like that, ye'd be makin' headway instead o' runnin' 'round in mindless circles...think 'bout it, lad...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Riftworm]

And you totally ignored my point pages earlier that interactive games have known to be subject under different standards than of those handbooks and other D&D 3.5 material. This 'censorship' on the part of Hasbro/WoTC has been an obvious fact for over two years at least over many video game companies, so arguing with Sawyer about the inconsistencies of Hasbro's actions is both futile and pointless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yet it didn't apply to Bioware, or Turbine, Inc. for DDO...??

[Tigranes]

Because standards stay exactly the same over the years, yeah? And what exactly did DDO do, anyway? Have underwear?

[Riftworm]

Because standards stay exactly the same over the years, yeah? And what exactly did DDO do, anyway? Have underwear?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They have clothing options that are far more revealing than those of this game. I'm sure a poll would reveal that game has way more "kids" playing it as well.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Riftworm

[Riftworm]

You guys don't have to die on every hill.  Choose one that makes more sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

...couldna said it better meself, lad; well done...NWN2 ain't perfect, by a long shot (but, then again, what game is?)...a few o' yer points 'ave alot o' merit, if'n ye'd stick to 'em an' lay offa the sauce wit' the whole skin issue an' things like that, ye'd be makin' headway instead o' runnin' 'round in mindless circles...think 'bout it, lad...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok let's forget that Obsidian was forced to Disney-ize a largely adult demographic game like NWN2, and continue with my previous thoughts

 

"The same can be said about the NWN2 campaign where it's more restrictive on two fronts than the NWN1 OC, I both cant freely explore, nor can I attack a villager. These things may seem childish or corny or stupid to you, but they seem "free" to me. And ultimately far more immersive. Is it reality that people walk around plotted in god mode when they have no integral use to the story? Is it realistic that I have a predetermined path I cant wander from?"

 

 

^

Edited November 27, 2006 by Riftworm

[Sargallath Abraxium]

Ok let's forget that Obsidian was forced to Disney-ize a largely adult demographic game like NWN2, and continue with my previous thoughts

 

"The same can be said about the NWN2 campaign where it's more restrictive on two fronts than the NWN1 OC, I both cant freely explore, nor can I attack a villager. These things may seem childish or corny or stupid to you, but they seem "free" to me. And ultimately far more immersive. Is it reality that people walk around plotted in god mode when they have no integral use to the story? Is it realistic that I have a predetermined path I cant wander from?"

 

 

^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...is this game set in reality??...no...your answer, quick an' painless-like...in e'ery cRPG e'er made ya has a predetermined path, some jus' let ya explore a bit o' it more than others...again, yer answer...any other brainteasers ya wish explained ta ya??... :joy:

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Gromnir]

That wasn't a response to my comments Gromnir. You seem more content on exaggerating my statements and answering your own exaggerations than responding to my specific comments. And nowhere did I say that was the only reason NWN1 was better than NWN2. The "skin" you seem so afraid of, is one issue out of 50.

 

My interpretation of realism is realized and fufilled to my satisfaction in NWN1, but not in NWN2, for many reasons beyond the underwear issue.

 

And what you consider ridiculous about my 50 reasons list, I do not. And the many others here that have agreed with the points in there I'm fairly certain do not either, or else they wouldn't have agreed.

 

-

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

how is Gromnir afraid of skin? we not particualar mind either way if avatars is naked w/o armour or not. is not the skin that bothers us but rather your tenacious defense of a 50 list that gots maybe 5 legit issues. YOU made skin an issue among 50, but you not seem to be able to take a stand on why you think it should be an issue. first it were realism. now... now it seems that it is something else. additionaly, it should be obvious by now that this is not a developer issue, but rather a wotc issue... so we not understand why you would continue to rail when not only has your realism issue re underwear has been pretty much destroyed, but given fact that it has been explained to you a half dozen or more times now that obsidian has little say-so in regards skin issues.

 

 

"My interpretation of realism is realized and fufilled to my satisfaction in NWN1, but not in NWN2, for many reasons beyond the underwear issue."

 

well then you is gonna have to do a much better job of explaining your concerns 'cause as we can all see by now, underwear not bolster realism, and arms and armour in nwn were as stylized and fantastical (aribeth's armour) as anything in nwn2. "realism" as a serious issue in a fantasy crpg is having a somewhat dubious foundation for legitimate gripeage, but we would be willing to at least consider if you were at least a little more competent insofar as explaining how nwn1 were more realistic than nwn2. underwear? underwear ain't helping your cause.

 

again, we got no doubt that you has some legit concerns, but you put together in to a hyperbole laden list and it makes all your concerns seem that much less valid. Gromnir himself already made a post where we expressed some concerns (minor and major) 'bout nwn2, so we ain't adverse to scorching nwn2 or the developers o' said game, but if you wants your concerns to be taken serious we tends to think you is going 'bout it all wrong.

 

is not skin that bothers Gromnir, but rather the hamfisted manner in which you attempts to gets your concerns addressed.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

The same can be said about the NWN2 campaign where it's more restrictive on two fronts than the NWN1 OC, I both cant freely explore, nor can I attack a villager. These things may seem childish or corny or stupid to you, but they seem "free" to me. And ultimately far more immersive. Is it reality that people walk around plotted in god mode when they have no integral use to the story? Is it realistic that I have a predetermined path I cant wander from?"

I don't think those are silly complaints. Freedom to explore and freedom to be a bloodthirsty idiot (no, seriously) are both very valuable in CRPGs, I think. I wish the NWN2 OC were more "open" on many fronts.

[Riftworm]

Ok let's forget that Obsidian was forced to Disney-ize a largely adult demographic game like NWN2, and continue with my previous thoughts

 

"The same can be said about the NWN2 campaign where it's more restrictive on two fronts than the NWN1 OC, I both cant freely explore, nor can I attack a villager. These things may seem childish or corny or stupid to you, but they seem "free" to me. And ultimately far more immersive. Is it reality that people walk around plotted in god mode when they have no integral use to the story? Is it realistic that I have a predetermined path I cant wander from?"

 

 

^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...is this game set in reality??...no...your answer, quick an' painless-like...in e'ery cRPG e'er made ya has a predetermined path, some jus' let ya explore a bit o' it more than others...again, yer answer...any other brainteasers ya wish explained ta ya??... :joy:

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ok so by your logic, It would be acceptible if your PC's were flying pink pixel monsters that spoke Klingon? ...

 

You know what I mean, within this world or any RPG/Action game there needs to be some kind of semblence of reality (sans the spells or magical feats). That's why they strive for because that's why the gamer relates.

[Gromnir]

"You know what I mean, within this world or any RPG/Action game there needs to be some kind of semblence of reality (sans the spells or magical feats). That's why they strive for because that's why the gamer relates."

 

pretty much every blizzard game exists as a stark denial of your position. reality and realism in blizzard games is stretched to amazing extremes w/o seeming to shatter the Average Gamer's ability to enjoy the game and game world. blizzard not strive for realism. wotc not strive for realism. lucas arts not strive for realism.

 

is game internally coherent... is it rational within the context of the rules the world's creators put forth? THAT is a legit concern for developers, but you cannot simply dismiss spells and magic but get all torqued by underwear. is not realism that matters, but we suspect you just won't get that.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 27, 2006 by Gromnir

[Riftworm]

"You know what I mean, within this world or any RPG/Action game there needs to be some kind of semblence of reality (sans the spells or magical feats). That's why they strive for because that's why the gamer relates."

 

pretty much every blizzard game exists as a stark denial of your position.  reality and realism in blizzard games is stretched to amazing extremes w/o seeming to shatter the Average Gamer's ability to enjoy the game and game world. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Blizzard games are visually appealing as well, and however "fantastic" the content, it never leaves the arena of what a person can relate to in terms of reality within the genre of fantasy.

 

Admittedly I'm no big fan of WoW though, and that should be noted. I'd rather be playing what I perceive with my senses as a type of LOTR the movie trilogy in a gaming format. Cinematic reality in that sense.

 

 

-

Edited November 27, 2006 by Riftworm

[Riftworm]

The same can be said about the NWN2 campaign where it's more restrictive on two fronts than the NWN1 OC, I both cant freely explore, nor can I attack a villager. These things may seem childish or corny or stupid to you, but they seem "free" to me. And ultimately far more immersive. Is it reality that people walk around plotted in god mode when they have no integral use to the story? Is it realistic that I have a predetermined path I cant wander from?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think those are silly complaints. Freedom to explore and freedom to be a bloodthirsty idiot (no, seriously) are both very valuable in CRPGs, I think. I wish the NWN2 OC were more "open" on many fronts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm glad you agree. Does that mean it's too late to make either of those happen?

[Cantousent]

I guess I'm a tactless, apathetic gamer, but I thought I pointed out why your basis point was nuts. As far as the issue concerning attacking villagers, that's probably an issue that encompasses more than the developer. Undoubtedly, that particular conundrum stems from the licenseholder, the publisher, and the developer.

 

As far as wandering around, I see that as your strongest point in this particular mess. While it's still subjective, you can argue that the way the character travels overland in NWN is better than the wolrdmap in NWN2. ...Or at least that the NWN2 worldmap is poorly implemented. Once again, I don't see an inherent superiority in the way NWN works in this regard, but I'm sure we can come up with ways to improve NWN2. I usually don't second guess the devs when it comes to these issues, but I certainly have no problem voicing my opinion. Moreover, I welcome your right to do the same.

 

However, this brings us back to one of my main points. As I've consistently said, I don't see NWNs method on most of these issues as an improvement. You'd be much more likely to bend my ear with making points about NWN2 rather than doggedly judging it harshly against NWN. I don't consider NWN all that great of a game. It was good. I finished it twice. I finished, I believe, two modules. When it first hit the shelves, I joined some ridiculous guild until I realized that NWN wasn't all that great.

 

Making points about NWN2 as a stand alone product would have been far better for creating a larger discussion. Not only that, it would have been a far more effective way to attack the game. The second you nailed the parchment to the church door, you sacrificed some of your credibility on this issue. ...At least to me. I can't speak for others.

 

To be candid, however, Tigranes has many, many posts in which he complains about NWN2. The difference is, he doesn't come across as a NWN zealot. You get the feeling that he wants improvements in the grander scheme of things, rather than a return to the old model.

 

Frankly, if you prefer NWN, the game still exists. I hope you find things to enjoy in NWN2, but it's not like NWN died the second the sequel hit the shelves. If you truly believe that NWN surpasses NWN2 in every way, or in virtually every way, then you're simply going to be forced to return to it.

[Gromnir]

"Blizzard games are visually appealing as well, and however "fantastic" the content, it never leaves the arena of what a person can relate to in terms of reality within the genre of fantasy."

 

but lack o' underwear and arms and armour that is less ludicrous than typical stuff from wow shatters your fuzzy realism threshold?

 

...

 

okie dokie.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[roshan]

The same can be said about the NWN2 campaign where it's more restrictive on two fronts than the NWN1 OC, I both cant freely explore, nor can I attack a villager. These things may seem childish or corny or stupid to you, but they seem "free" to me. And ultimately far more immersive. Is it reality that people walk around plotted in god mode when they have no integral use to the story? Is it realistic that I have a predetermined path I cant wander from?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think those are silly complaints. Freedom to explore and freedom to be a bloodthirsty idiot (no, seriously) are both very valuable in CRPGs, I think. I wish the NWN2 OC were more "open" on many fronts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I hope you get to design the NWN2 expansion packs campaign.

[Skynet]

Wow. I've never seen anyone fight so hard to see underwear in a game.

[Cantousent]

"You know what I mean, within this world or any RPG/Action game there needs to be some kind of semblence of reality (sans the spells or magical feats). That's why they strive for because that's why the gamer relates."

 

pretty much every blizzard game exists as a stark denial of your position.  reality and realism in blizzard games is stretched to amazing extremes w/o seeming to shatter the Average Gamer's ability to enjoy the game and game world. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Blizzard games are visually appealing as well, and however "fantastic" the content, it never leaves the arena of what a person can relate to in terms of reality within the genre of fantasy.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The straws are gone. This is simply grasping at thin air. You know, I've had some complaints about NWN2. Mostly that it's in a computer less than 3 miles from where I currently live and yet I barely get an hour at a time to play it.

 

In the game, I have some complaints as well. Do I theoretically desire freedom? Yes. Do I have a specific gripe because I can't attack a villager? No. Not because I'm apathetic in a larger sense. Only because I'm not going to attack a villager. Sure, I think freedom is great, but I can't speak to restraints that hurt your experience.

 

So far, I have had roughly as much freedom in NWN2 as I did in NWN1. The two main aspects I don't like in NWN2 are the same things I didn't like in NWN1. I don't like the way death is implemented and I don't like the way resting works. Those two issues are probably my biggest ones. In both cases, I don't see NWN as much of an improvement. I prefer the IWD approach, but even the BG scheme would have worked.

 

In none of thse cases is realism much of an issue. You want internal realism within the campaign and then you really suggest that the weapons and armor bring down the house. See, that's what I call nuts. Sure, it's only my opinion, but I suggest you seek a second. You want to campaign against NWN2? Fine. ...But it's nuts. I mean that in the most diplomatic way possible.

 

BTW: You seem to distance yourself from NWN2 quite a bit, Sawyer. Just curious if you don't take pride in the game.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'm glad you agree. Does that mean it's too late to make either of those happen?

In the OC? Yes, far too late. The OC is a very tightly-wound clump of stuff. Non-linearity and the ability to attack/kill any old shmoe wandering around are things that designers have to accept and accommodate from the get-go or they wind up going, "OH WAIT THAT BREAKS A THOUSAND THINGS DURRRR." as soon as they allow people to do so.

 

I hope you get to design the NWN2 expansion packs campaign.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but when it comes to D&D games, I'd rather approach them as personal projects. If we do an expansion, I won't be working on it. That said, there are a lot of other designers who recognize big flaws in the OC, so it's not like I'm a voice crying in the wilderness.

[Tigranes]

Hopefully we can look forward to more open-ended areas (in terms of exploration, more BG1), yes, because NWN2 and K2 feel a lot like a tourist's guide to Neverwinter and the Planets. Freedom to attack civilians isn't just bloodthirsty idiot either, it's really good for a CN / Evil Rogue character. I would use Pickpocket and stuff a lot in BG, not indiscriminately sneak attacking anyone and everyone.

 

They're not huge complaints but would just make the game better, instead of fixing a glaring flaw, imo.

 

BTW: You seem to distance yourself from NWN2 quite a bit, Sawyer. Just curious if you don't take pride in the game.

 

Truth.

[J.E. Sawyer]

BTW:  You seem to distance yourself from NWN2 quite a bit, Sawyer.  Just curious if you don't take pride in the game.

It's not really mine to take pride or shame in.

[Mortis Nai]

BTW:  You seem to distance yourself from NWN2 quite a bit, Sawyer.  Just curious if you don't take pride in the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not really mine to take pride or shame in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A Developer working on a game is much like an Artist working on a painting.

 

It's never perfect, there is always ways it could have been improved, its never exactly what you pictured in your minds eye but eventually you have to know when to leave the hell enough alone and take what lessons you can from the experience.

 

An artist is always there worst and most brutal critic.

 

I think it is refreshing to see someone being so brutally honest about something there poured so much of there life into.

 

or so I would like to romanticise

Edited November 27, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Volourn]

"So far, I have had roughly as much freedom in NWN2 as I did in NWN1."

 

Except, factually, that's not true. It's not even opinion here. You cna attack pretty much everyone in NWN1 OC. Outside of the main characters, nobody is untouchable. Heck, you can even attack Aribeth though she just ignores you (which is also a bad thing).

 

You also have more freedom within each module and area. In NWN2 OC, you have a pretty much straight linear line to go. In NWN1 OC, you pretty much free reign to approach the area. It's not as boxed in. btw, This is a problem with the NWN2 OC; not NWN2 the total apckage as it'll be up to individual modders to deal with it the way hey wnat.

 

I said it before, I'll sya it again. NWN1 does many things better than NWN2. NWN2 does many things better than NWN1. *shrug*

 

Sadly, I wish the Obsidian fanboys would follow Obsidian's lead as Obsidian seems to have handled most of the legit criticism solidly.

 

LONG LIVE NWN SERIES!!! :joy: :joy: :joy:

[roshan]

I'm glad you agree. Does that mean it's too late to make either of those happen?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the OC? Yes, far too late. The OC is a very tightly-wound clump of stuff. Non-linearity and the ability to attack/kill any old shmoe wandering around are things that designers have to accept and accommodate from the get-go or they wind up going, "OH WAIT THAT BREAKS A THOUSAND THINGS DURRRR." as soon as they allow people to do so.

 

I hope you get to design the NWN2 expansion packs campaign.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but when it comes to D&D games, I'd rather approach them as personal projects. If we do an expansion, I won't be working on it. That said, there are a lot of other designers who recognize big flaws in the OC, so it's not like I'm a voice crying in the wilderness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If there are many designers at Obsidian who consider the OC flawed, how did the OC come to be that way in the first place? Was it due to some misguided idea that all RPG campaigns have to be done like KOTOR?

 

That being said, I do hope that you get the chance to do design some hardcore PC RPGs - if you are still interested in that sort of thing after Jefferson and Van Buren. And hopefully Obsidian hasnt completely ruled out the possibility of making such RPGs in the future.

Edited November 27, 2006 by roshan