NWN2: Discussion

[Gromnir]

"Yeah, but if we're only looking at the hard stats they really don't make that much difference. The best you can get in the way of weapons is a Cold Iron +5 weapon with two types of elemental damage tacked on (or one plus holy, although then you need to be a cleric yourself I think, unless Elanee has Bless?"

 

you is joking, right? a succubi casts stoneskin and given goofy nwn2 dr rules you is stuck bashing her til stoneskin comes down.. that is unless you gots your nifty holy adamantine weapon, which hits everything and pretty much bypasses every kind of dr in the game. see, the cold iron that works so well 'gainst demons don't do nothing 'gainst stoneskin. what were the best greatsword in game? the golem blade were a +3 weapon that did additional slash damage and massive criticals, and that were found real close to end of game. you honestly think that such a weapon compares to a +5 holy silver greatsword with vampiric regeneration... or a +5 holy admantine weapon? you is kidding, no? could make our uber weapon much earlier too.

 

+5 fortified mithril plate? there were such armour in game available? add +5 enchantment to an umber hulk tower shield? amulet of health makes wearer immune to level drain, poison, disease... and requires a 5th level caster. wow. some of the most devistating and common attack forms in nwn2, and you can gives multiple party members complete immunity. we thinks we found one of those in game, but we can make multiple if we so desire.

 

wands is overlooked. craft wand to make for any 4th level or lower spell, right? any character with umd can use a wand. neeshka and ammon jerro and possibly your pc sudden becomes pretty damn effective buffers.

 

and at high levels there still ain't no comparison 'tween found stuff and made. those +8 stat boosters not only get you extra spells for casters, but they improve your dc... which if you ain't figured out by now is pretty darn important. find any +8 stat boosting items in game? how many? a cleric with a belt of cloud giant strength and a peripat of wisdom +8? you found that stuff in game? outfit MULTIPLE party members with those items.

 

and please do not overlook fact that you can make items that fit your characters. casavir were set up fromstart to wield a warhammer... so we could make whatever warhammer we wished for him. best warhammer in game were only usable by dwarves. tough luck for casavir, and tough luck for people who turned khelgar into a monk, eh? second best warhammer we found were that lost empire thing. pretty crappy compared to what we could make if we had wished to. instead we had casavir wielding the waking dragon falchion near end of game... monkey gripped. hardly optimal.

 

btw, holy attribute requires cure critical wounds, which elanee gets pretty early.... and gith chick can cast. have elanee do armours and weapons, sand do wondrous items, and you can make most good stuff possible... early.

 

"Computer games and PnP are not the same."

 

exactly. THIS computer game took a serious strategic and tactical consideration present in pnp and OTHER d&d crpgs and complete nerfed it.

 

oh, and not only were sarevok's plan complete rubish if you thinks 'bout it for even a moment (start with creating an iron shortage by tainting ore IN mines... another mine with a james bond self-destruct mechanism, etc) but he were so damned typical and uninspired that even the biowarians admit that he were pretty much a hole-punch baddie. he did have a good evil laugh though... so if you is impressed by such.

 

irenicus at least had a story that should have been developed more, but compared to sarevok? sarevok were no different than any other bg1 npc: cliche and undeveloped. but sarevok shortcomings were just one item 'mongst the multitude. gonna honestly compare the deluge of bg1 fed-ex quest to stuff avialable in bg2? joinable npc interaction were comprable? character generation choices and in-game quest choices were in favor o' bg1?

 

True Fans. what are you gonna do?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 1, 2006 by Gromnir

[Tigranes]

Gah. I haven't followed the discussion here; so I definitely agree with Gromnir, crafting is extremely powerful and in most cases offers more flexible and more powerful alternatives to bought and found items (except for those items with like 5 custom attributes). I'm not exactly sure where he's going with that, though, so I won't follow that far.

 

On Sarevok? Uh, is anyone still arguing that he was a good villain? You could like him for personal preference, of course, but he was so underdeveloped he was.. well he was very underdeveloped. He could have been an insentient skeleton. I really wish he was better developed though, he could have been very interesting. I don't think his plots were quite that hackneyed though. The only real 'flaw' in his plan was that he thought he'd instantly become a God by.. uh, killing lots of people. Hah

 

I enjoyed Irenicus even though I can see why some people find him crap. I mean, most characters, in D&D or in any medium, are going to be cliched or flawed (as in flawed design) in some ways, and for some people it's always going to irk them too much.

[aVENGER]

My main problem with NWN2 is that it' doesn't feel like sequel as it drops a lot of content from the first game.

Where are my whips? Where are my epic levels? Time Stop?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

IIRC, whips and epic levels were not actually in the original NWN. They were introduced by one of the expansions, HotU if I'm not mistaken, and it's fairly safe to assume that NWN2 will follow suit. FYI, the original NWN didn't have Crafting (as a skill), Enchanting (by the player), Prestige Classes or even more than one dialogue skill. IMHO, that's why it's not really fair to compare NWN2 in its current state to NWN1+expansions. It's still too early.

 

As for Time Stop, it was supposedly removed because of issues with the multi-player game. AFAIK, many players disliked it because it "paused the entire world" or something.

[Tigranes]

Epic levels should have been taken outu because they were not done properly. Epic levels should actually produce a new dimension of gameplay (i.e. wizard = craft powerful golems that are actually powerful, open portals, etc) and therefore the game or at least the campaign must be built fully around the concept of this new gameplay. As NWN and NWN2 campaigns, all of them, still use the concept of the free-roaming adventurer gathering gold and whatnot, it is extremely silly to use Epic levels in this manner and it's just not fun.

 

Oops, yeah, that's just my opinion, by the way. I'm always disappointed by "just kill more things" Epic levels. I mean, Disintegrate fulfills my noob KILL KILL urges.

[Slowtrain]

I, for one, NEVER take magic missle as a 1st level wizard. To me, if you are actually aiming for power, magic missle is pratically the most useless first level offensive spell you can select. Doesn't really become that useful until the 3rd missle comes into play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Granted, mm blows at low level, except as a spell stopper against opposing casters in some games.

 

But my point was less about MM specifically than about the repetitive nature of D&D crpgs. Same spells, same monsters, same weapons, same stats, etc and so forth. I think there needs to be an charge laid upon developers, that if they are going to keep plumbing the exact same ground over and over again, then they better work darn hard to make that ground as interesting and attractive as possible.

 

Now this is not a knock against D&D specifically, since any rule system game gets less interesting if it is overused. But, D&D, as implemented in CRPGS, is not the most complex and interesting of rulesets, either in its actual use or the end results it creates, so it suffers worse than other rulesets might from overuse.

 

What I was hoping for from NWN2 was a game that would a really fun and interesting game that would make its use of the D&D ruleset something I could overlook. Based on everyone's posts that I've been reading I don't hold out much hope for this to be the case anymore. Just my take on it of course. Personally speaking.

[Slowtrain]

And just to reiterate, I am not bashing D&D in and of itself.

 

There is a huge difference between p&p D&D where a good DM can really make a campaign interesting and CRPG D&D where the developers can't even program an AI that can figure out a way around a small rock in its path.

 

And really, it is an even more hideous gaffe in a D&D crpg vs an original setting like the Elder Scrolls, cause all the rules and monsters and mechanics and balancing and classes have already been done in D&D. All the devs really need to concentrate is building an intersting story out of an existing ruleset. In Oblivion the devs needed to build and balance the ruleset AND create the world AND create the adventure. I cut them more slack because of that, even if the Persuasion wheel is the single dumbest thing ever in a crpg. My opinion, of course.

[Xard]

*sings* I have keep, I have a keep!

 

:joy:

 

Keep simply rocks, but where can I get some decent equipment for my soldiers? Their training and skills are now best possible, but equipments are still very poor.

 

Repairing and building is lovely too ^_^

[metadigital]

I think you'll find that most of the fans of D&D like the fact that it is a consistent ruleset (and implicitly they have memorized all the best ways to use it).

 

It's true the plot should be intriguing on its own, though.

[Dark_Raven]

*sings* I have keep, I have a keep!

 

:joy:

 

Keep simply rocks, but where can I get some decent equipment for my soldiers? Their training and skills are now best possible, but equipments are still very poor.

 

Repairing and building is lovely too ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The keep is awesome. If you have the gold to spend, upgrade everything you can.

[metadigital]

*sings* I have keep, I have a keep!

 

:joy:

 

Keep simply rocks, but where can I get some decent equipment for my soldiers? Their training and skills are now best possible, but equipments are still very poor.

 

Repairing and building is lovely too ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you have

Torio Claven as an advisor, then she will point you towards all the extra personnel that you can hire in the Keep.

Believe me, running around asking them all will keep you busy (no pun intended).

 

As for armour upgrades specifically, you'll need to get

a blacksmith ... perhaps poaching the one from Fort Locke might help?

"

 

After that you'll need to get supplies ...

[Xard]

 

Oh, right. I checked blacksmith earlier but that was before I had repaired Smithy.

 

 

[Gromnir]

I enjoyed Irenicus even though I can see why some people find him crap. I mean, most characters, in D&D or in any medium, are going to be cliched or flawed (as in flawed design) in some ways, and for some people it's always going to irk them too much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

re: sarevok.

 

ok, sarevok's seeming assumption that he would become a god if he were cause of mass death in region seems a bit... wacky. heck, the events of Throne of Bhall seems to suggest that sarevok's plan were a pretty bad way to makes himself the winner in the Child o' Bhall sweepstakes, but putting that aside for a second...

 

what were point of artificial iron shortage again? sarevok gots his bandits raiding the sword coast for iron. they raid for iron 'cause of iron shortage caused by "tainted mines"... which were 'bout the most stoopid and unwieldy way to creates economic and military havoc on sword coast we could ever come up with. mines is dangerous already, so why not simply cause collapse of nashkel (and presumably other) mines. end up with same effect w/o leaving evidence and easy opportunity for uncovering tangled plot. but instead sarevok opts to hire an army of kobolds to run 'round corrupting individual ore deposits with evil green fluids? huh?

 

in any event, the bandit raids were accomplishing similar results w/o wacky plot nonsense. bandits raiding major trade routes is somehow better if they is raiding for iron in particular? bio guys can come up with any one of a dozen reasons to be increasing bandit activity in region north of amn, but somehow james ohlen says to self that if they got iron throne, then somehow iron shortage makes sense?

 

can go further if you want, but again, if you begin to looks at sarevok plan for even a moment or two you see just how insane it is.

 

as to crafting and where we were going... we weren't really going nowhere, other than to point out just how powerful such crafting is. in a game already made easier than it needed to be 'cause of auto-ressurect, the ability to makes artifact-level weapons at relatively low levels w/o a corresponding xp hit makes game that much more of a cake walk. we avoided crafting in nwn2, but much as crafting in kotor 2 seemed more than a little unbalanced, so too does nwn2 crafting.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 1, 2006 by Gromnir

[Spider]

you is joking, right?

 

I'm not saying you can't do better weapons than what are available in the game. Obviously you can. I still don't think the crafting is overpowered because the game is easy enough to begin with. The effects of the amulet you talk about can el be replicated by spells and thus having that amulet can actually make you less powerful since you're wasting an equipment slot (you could have amulet of natural armor instead for example, which can be replicated with barkskin).

 

There are only two fights in the game that even resemble a challenge (the dragons), and neither is helped all that much by having uber equipment. Sure, armor of fire resistance is nice versus the red dragon, but not as nice as energy immunity and so on.

 

Crafting makes your party seem more powerful, but from my experience it far from breaks the game.

 

The succubi you reference is actually a good example. Why on earth would I care if I can kill them slightly faster with my adamantine weapons, when there is absolutely no chance that I'm going to lose against them anyway? It's not like they're actually dangerous.

 

btw,  holy attribute requires cure critical wounds, which elanee gets pretty early.... and gith chick can cast.

 

Holy also requires the caster to be good, which rules out Zhjaeve iirc.

 

"Computer games and PnP are not the same." 

 

exactly.  THIS computer game took a serious strategic and tactical consideration present in pnp and OTHER d&d crpgs and complete nerfed it. 

 

I completely disagree. I don't think party members going down is much of a tactical consideration in a setting where you can just tow them to a temple and have them resurrected. The reason why I typically find that party member death in other D&D games = reload is because they fall behind on XP (something I hate) and because it's usually less time consuming to just re-do the fight than actually walking across maps to a temple and back.

 

Besides, it's kind of a moot point once level nine is reached when raise dead becomes available (except it doesn't in NWN2 unless the main character is a cleric, but that's not the point here). Just a rest later and everyone is good as new.

 

So basically they just took away the annoyances from party members going down. Now, in a setting where resurrect isn't quite so readily available, I find it more annoying. I would have disliked it more in the Kotors than in NWN2 if it wasn't for the KotORs being extremely streamlined to begin with.

 

oh, and not only were sarevok's plan complete rubish if you thinks 'bout it for even a moment (start with creating an iron shortage by tainting ore IN mines... another mine with a james bond self-destruct mechanism, etc)  but he were so damned typical and uninspired that even the biowarians admit that he were pretty much a hole-punch baddie.  he did have a good evil laugh though... so if you is impressed by such.

 

irenicus at least had a story that should have been developed more, but compared to sarevok?  sarevok were no different than any other bg1 npc: cliche and undeveloped.  but sarevok shortcomings were just one item 'mongst the multitude.  gonna honestly compare the deluge of bg1 fed-ex quest to stuff avialable in bg2?  joinable npc interaction were comprable?  character generation choices and in-game quest choices were in favor o' bg1? 

 

True Fans.  what are you gonna do?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have never called myself a true fan of anything, and definitely not BG. I haven't even disputed that BG2 does a lot of things better than BG does. I only said that I think that the parts of BG2 are better than it's hole while it's the other way around with BG1.

 

Sarveok may have been clich

Edited December 1, 2006 by Spider

[Gromnir]

please point out the low level spell that makes you simultaneous immune to disease, poison and level drain? in any event, the great thing 'bout free crafting is that you can switch those items in your equipment slots to suit needs. fight undead? put amulet of health in slot. fight dragons? put in natural armour amulet. am not sure why you thinks that you needs keep in one amulet for always and ever. crafting gives us more opportiunities to tailor equipment.

 

and there were more than just 2 tough fights in game...'less you used crafting. the entire end dungeon area were a pain in our arse, because of stoopid inventory issues and inability to rest. 'course if we had all the best possible equip it might have been easy. and succubi were not that easy the first time we encounterd. gotta reload and memorize 'nuff protection from evil spells to protect whole party form dire charm. got pretty easy afterwards, but the stoneskin scenario pretty much applies to a number of other potential enemies as well.

 

and you far overstate the level 9 scenario. your party gets wiped out and chances are you never make it back to a temple... and even if you do get there you has had to spend loads of gold and time and resources to gets your party cleric raised so that he/she can then raise rest of party.

 

...

 

in any event, you is kinda kooky. crafting ain't busted 'cause game is already too easy insofar as combats is concerned, but you is also in favor of auto ressurect, which cheapens pains of combat. but by same token you don't play the games for story anand character interaction.

 

...

 

is simply a time filler or something?

 

am agreeing that iwd had better story than bg1. is arguable 'bout bg2, but we thinks you overstate for effect. iwd had advantage of being one story rather than many and so it maybe seemed a little more cohesive. bg2 story were not simply critial path. there were all those sidequests and joinable npcs as well.

 

so, sarevok were better because he were cliche and 1 dimensional? we thinks you again try too hard to make a point. irenicus needed more background development, but he were more than an evil laugh echoing from a suit of armour. sarevok/bg1 were actually kinda campy, but maybe you dig camp.

 

btw, in nwn2 you not have to be good to make a holy weapon. hell you not even have to be evil to take evil domain. gith chick can make holy weapons, but again, you is kinda missing the point on this one as elanee is available much earlier and can also makes holy weapons.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[kalimeeri]

I've played through and lurked around a bit, and here's my take, ready or not..

 

Oblivion has charm and polish, and has earned its accolades. It's flatly beautiful, and the AI/physics are amazing; the quests, while short, are still extremely well-done and compelling in comparison with Morrowind (like that takes much). I'm still having fun with it, and hoping for a full expansion. But it isn't really fair to compare it to NWN2, as they're different breeds of games. The reviewers who are doing that are dealing NWN2 a terrible injustice.

All I'll say is that it ain't NWN1--and thank the Nines for that!

 

 

Few games/movies/books have the ability reach out and touch you, actually make you feel something: be it compassion, sorrow, fear, anger, or heat of battle. NWN2 is one of them. NPC-wise, Oblivion's Martin was actually more of a surprise (I really really liked him)--after Kreia, I looked forward to CA's characters, and expected to like or hate them. Apathy is death, LOL. The NWN2 story itself has an epic feel, and becomes intense enough to have me checking my supply of blood pressure pills. For those two reasons alone, NWN2 should be applauded. :joy:

 

A third reason isn't immediately obvious, and that's what a lot of detractors are missing--NWN2 was built from the ground up for modders. I'd be very surprised to see an expansion that allows importing characters; there are way too many assumptions that would have to be made, which would discount the variables in the OC. But it left off at such a point that modders can take it in many, many directions ... and that is a very interesting idea indeed, even for someone who doesn't know squat about the art. I want more, which was the intention all along, I believe. The storyline could very easily have been wrapped up.

 

That understanding helps bring a measure of peace, kinda. There was a ton of stuff to love about the game. I will replay it, but I'm not ready yet (Knights of the Nine is coming out very soon--and well, I always mourn when a good game ends). But I recognize that I missed a lot of stuff, particularly because I didn't get the whole 'crafting' thing until late in the campaign. My ranger/sorc/EK also had zip for diplomacy, which would've helped, but he still did pretty well for himself in the influence department. (While he took a huge jump from Chaotic Good to Lawful, I could see that happening--people change, depending on what happens to them). I could've reverted back, but I didn't. All in all, with a little polish, a solid effort for Obsidian; I think it will be recognized in time, but it doesn't have the mass appeal for GOTY. Surface-skimmers outnumber the players who kick the tires and look under the hood.

[Gromnir]

ps keep in mind that auto-resurrect also meant that some of the most horrible weapons of enemies were not available to the baddies in nwn2. no disintegrate or petrification effects 'cause those gots a duration that lasts beyond death. no wonder we not see no beholders.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Diamond]

*sings* I have keep, I have a keep!

 

:joy:

 

Keep simply rocks, but where can I get some decent equipment for my soldiers? Their training and skills are now best possible, but equipments are still very poor.

 

Repairing and building is lovely too ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may want to check out this thread at Bioforums.

[deganawida]

ps  keep in mind that auto-resurrect also meant that some of the most horrible weapons of enemies were not available to the baddies in nwn2.  no disintegrate or petrification effects 'cause those gots a duration that lasts beyond death.  no wonder we not see no beholders.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just a small correction, but petrification is one of the effects of Prismatic Spray, and the only one triggering in the non-1.03b version of the game. Petrification, though, does go away similarly to death. I learned this when Neeshka failed a Will save vs. confusion, attacked Sand, and Sand hit her with Prismatic Spray. It's happened a couple of other times since then. The petrification effect seems to last longer than death, though I might have been kept in combat for a while and not known it.

[Xard]

*sings* I have keep, I have a keep!

 

:joy:

 

Keep simply rocks, but where can I get some decent equipment for my soldiers? Their training and skills are now best possible, but equipments are still very poor.

 

Repairing and building is lovely too ^_^

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may want to check out this thread at Bioforums.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks

[roshan]

There are only two fights in the game that even resemble a challenge (the dragons), and neither is helped all that much by having uber equipment. Sure, armor of fire resistance is nice versus the red dragon, but not as nice as energy immunity and so on.

 

The dragons were a joke. I went through both fights without anyone going down... and I didnt even use crafting in my game. The fight with the dragons and the fire giants was a massacre.

 

Yesterday I created a custom map and my level 20 character killed 2 dragons(one black and one red) in melee - without using healing. The only time I ever felt threatened was when one of the dragons stunned my character and they were beating on me.

 

If my character had UMD for the sun soul boots and a tower shield plus 5, the dragons wouldnt even have been able to touch him.

 

I completely disagree. I don't think party members going down is much of a tactical consideration in a setting where you can just tow them to a temple and have them resurrected. The reason why I typically find that party member death in other D&D games = reload is because they fall behind on XP (something I hate) and because it's usually less time consuming to just re-do the fight than actually walking across maps to a temple and back.

 

Besides, it's kind of a moot point once level nine is reached when raise dead becomes available (except it doesn't in NWN2 unless the main character is a cleric, but that's not the point here). Just a rest later and everyone is good as new.

 

So basically they just took away the annoyances from party members going down. Now, in a setting where resurrect isn't quite so readily available, I find it more annoying. I would have disliked it more in the Kotors than in NWN2 if it wasn't for the KotORs being extremely streamlined to begin with.

 

In the IE games there were battles and areas that were tough enough that you had to seriously consider whether to reload and try again or continue on with a member missing - or go through the trouble of going to a temple and returning. And there was also the consideration of the money that you would have to spend.

 

In any case I never used resurrection in the IE games - I always reloaded. Fighting through battles with everyone alive was the challenge of the games.

 

NWN2 would have been ridiculously easy even without auto resurrection. Most of the time you are just hacking and slashing through melee enemies who are of much lower level than your characters. Auto resurrection turned the game into a complete joke.

 

and succubi were not that easy the first time we encounterd. gotta reload and memorize 'nuff protection from evil spells to protect whole party form dire charm. got pretty easy afterwards, but the stoneskin scenario pretty much applies to a number of other potential enemies as well.

 

The first time I remember fighting succubi was in the place where I first fought zaxis. In that area none of the succubi used dire charm. The area was easy until the final battle with zaxis which was the games one and only challenging situation. (except for the final area, which I have not played yet)

 

I also remember fighting succubi in another area, I believe before fighting the githyanki leader, and that area was also easy, just had to chop away. Now some of my party members may have become dire charmed but as soon as the succubi were killed, the dire charm wore off. Thus if anyone was dire charmed you just had to kill off the succubi quickly so dire charm was never an issue. Stoneskin was never an issue with my main characters huge damage output.

 

The only time I remember dire charm ever being an issue was in Ammon Jerros haven. First Khelgar got dire charmed. I killed off Khelgar with my PC. Then my PC got dire charmed. My PC then killed off the rest of the party. When his dire charm wore off, he finished off the succubi, everyone resurrected, I hit the rest button and everything was good as new.

 

Even when there is a potential for a challenging situation, it is lost due to auto resurrection, which is a complete joke... Obsidian had to be insane to come up with such idiocy.

[Gromnir]

ps  keep in mind that auto-resurrect also meant that some of the most horrible weapons of enemies were not available to the baddies in nwn2.  no disintegrate or petrification effects 'cause those gots a duration that lasts beyond death.  no wonder we not see no beholders.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just a small correction, but petrification is one of the effects of Prismatic Spray, and the only one triggering in the non-1.03b version of the game. Petrification, though, does go away similarly to death. I learned this when Neeshka failed a Will save vs. confusion, attacked Sand, and Sand hit her with Prismatic Spray. It's happened a couple of other times since then. The petrification effect seems to last longer than death, though I might have been kept in combat for a while and not known it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

good to know. we never seen a baddie use any disitegrate or prismatic spray effects, so we assumed they were not in oc bag of baddie weapons. though it is kinda lame that petrification wears off, just as does death.

 

btw, we would post more at bio regarding nwn2, but derek french and the mods there seems to have decided that people who simply wanna complain 'bout game bugginess or performance must needs do so in a specific thread. get locked otherwise. got nothing 'gainst lockage when a guy wants to spam board with "I HATE OBSIDIAN!" posts, but lock any thread started to complain 'bout game is somehow more than a little disturbing to Gromnir. am hopeful that obsidian not take a similar approach in this place. you can complain, but all complaints must be type-written and deposited in the round file next to josh's desk? that would be unfortunate.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Spider]

please point out the low level spell that makes you simultaneous immune to disease, poison and level drain? in any event, the great thing 'bout free crafting is that you can switch those items in your equipment slots to suit needs.  fight undead?  put amulet of health in slot.  fight dragons?  put in natural armour amulet.  am not sure why you thinks that you needs keep in one amulet for always and ever.  crafting gives us more opportiunities to tailor equipment.

 

As if you can't re-memorize spells at a whim. A little more effort than changing equipment, but not by much. No, there isn't one spell available that does the stuff that amulet does, but on the other hand I have absolutely no respect for either of the conditions. A simple cure whatever or restoration will get rid of them before they manage to do any harm (it's not like they have much effect on the actual combat you sustain them in).

 

Besides, the amulet of health may be craftable at level 5, but you don't get any canary diamonds until you get to neverwinter which is a bit later iirc.

 

and there were more than just 2 tough fights in game...'less you used crafting.  the entire end dungeon area were a pain in our arse, because of stoopid inventory issues and inability to rest.  'course if we had all the best possible equip it might have been easy.  and succubi were not that easy the first time we encounterd.  gotta reload and memorize 'nuff protection from evil spells to protect whole party form dire charm.  got pretty easy afterwards, but the stoneskin scenario pretty much applies to a number of other potential enemies as well. 

 

Actually, I didn't think there were more than two tough fights. Maybe we can add the trio of reavers to that, but they were only tough if you didn't cast the words on them immediately. I found the rest of the end dungeon (and the final fight especially) to be fairly easy. Tedious, but easy. And this was with a character that only crafted two weapons for herself, one that was replaced with the shard sword at that time.

 

On my second playthrough I only had to reload due to combat once (and that was me not paying attention, not the fight actually being tough). Again without much going on in the way of crafting. I did do a full complement for my main character in the end, but only once I reached level 18 which doesn't leave much to do in the game.

 

The succubi were only a threat if they managed to charm anyone and since they firedthose off fairly early, stoneskin didn't matter other than making them take longer to kill. They fired off any charms they had before I would have killed them anyway (and their charms almost always failed. Maybe three to five successes in two games).

 

and you far overstate the level 9 scenario.  your party gets wiped out and chances are you never make it back to a temple... and even if you do get there you has had to spend loads of gold and time and resources to gets your party cleric raised so that he/she can then raise rest of party.

 

In what D&D crpg will I have a hard time getting back to a temple if I win a fight, even with only one character? To me it's more a nuisance than anything else. Make the fights tougher, I'd actually welcome that, but I don't think party member death is the bes way to do it.

 

in any event, you is kinda kooky.  crafting ain't busted 'cause game is already too easy insofar as combats is concerned, but you is also in favor of auto ressurect, which cheapens pains of combat.  but by same token you don't play the games for story anand character interaction.

 

Yes, take quotes out of context. I said I didn't play BG1 and 2 anymore for their stories and character interaction but because I enjoy the gameplay. First playthrough was different, and I did play NWN2 the first two times for those reasons (among others).

 

I don't think crafting is broken, because I don't see it making the game that much easier. Because I don't see how it could be much easier than it is. Had the game been more difficult than it is and crafting would have brought it to the level it is now you would have a point.

 

And I think autoresurrect is ok because it removes the annoyance of having to reload in spite of beating the fight in the first place. Forcing me to reload or run to a temple may add some difficulty, but it more adds tedium. Repeating for the sake of repeating. But I'll tell you what, just leave it in that party members have the same XP as the main character and I wouldn't care much. Truth be told, I'm not exactly invested in autores either. It's a preference, but nothing more. Again, make the fights tougher through other means, I don't mind reloading if I actually get beaten. But if I manage to squeeze out a kill vs a tough opponent I don't want to feel the need to reload all the same and do the fight again.

 

am agreeing that iwd had better story than bg1.  is arguable 'bout bg2, but we thinks you overstate for effect.  iwd had advantage of being one story rather than many and so it maybe seemed a little more cohesive.  bg2 story were not simply critial path.  there were all those sidequests and joinable npcs as well.

 

With story I mean critical path. Sidequests are ministories in themselves and I can understand your reasoning. And I do think IWD has a better critical path story than BG2 does. I think BG2 is a better game due to all the sidequests and stuff, however.

 

so, sarevok were better because he were cliche and 1 dimensional?  we thinks you again try too hard to make a point.  irenicus needed more background development, but he were more than an evil laugh echoing from a suit of armour.  sarevok/bg1 were actually kinda campy, but maybe you dig camp.

 

Keep in mind I never said I felt Sarevok was a good character. but he filled his role in the plot (as it was), did what he was supposed to do and didn't annoy me. Irenicus annoyed me. It really is as simple as that. I see people claiming that Irenicus is such a good villain and all (not you though) and I just don't get it. I think most everything about him was poorly made and never bought into his motivations. Me and jonny-boy simply didn't click. I even liked Bodhi better, and I wasn't particularly found of her either.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Spider

[Gromnir]

tough to read your post... but we notice where you claim we take some quote of yours out of context... 'course you editied in the "gameplay" bit after Gromnir were already in the process of responding to your post.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: ah, you fixed... we will respond later. disagree with you on just 'bout everything though. go figure. will note quickly that we don't see how you can divorce critical path and story aspects as a whole with a game like bg2.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Gromnir

[Spider]

I also remember fighting succubi in another area, I believe before fighting the githyanki leader, and that area was also easy, just had to chop away. Now some of my party members may have become dire charmed but as soon as the succubi were killed, the dire charm wore off. Thus if anyone was dire charmed you just had to kill off the succubi quickly so dire charm was never an issue. Stoneskin was never an issue with my main characters huge damage output.

 

I do't recall charm wearing f when the caster is dead. But I could be wrong on this. I agree that stoneskin was only a nuisance and nothing else though.

 

There is Disintegrate in the game as well, although I'm not sure if any enemy ever use it. But I absolutely hate spells that kill without resurrection in the IE games so I'm fine with that one being nerfed. Worst of all was Imprisonment. I really hated that spell. I can live with no auto-resurrect (like I said it's only a preference), but if so let the characters that go down actually be resurrectable. Or remove resurrection completely from the game.

 

(strange as it may sound, that last one is actually my favorite option, since I always felt resurrection as it works in D&D is a bit retarded)

[Spider]

tough to read your post... but we notice where you claim we take some quote of yours out of context... 'course you editied in the "gameplay" bit after Gromnir were already in the process of responding to your post.

 

Sorry about that. I didn't realize that part of it was from my edit. So I apologize for accusing you of quoting out of context. My bad. Just ignore that part.

 

edit:

will note quickly that we don't see how you can divorce critical path and story aspects as a whole with a game like bg2.

 

I'm good at compartmentalizing. Seriously though, I can't divorce them if I am judging the game as a whole, but I'm not. I'm looking at what the mandatory parts of the game present and then there's the optional stuff. However, it is a terribly unfair comparison because the two games are quite different in their design. Which is why I am careful to point out that I think BG2 is the better game.

 

And even if I were to include the optional bitsas story, I still think IWD wins out (although maybe with a slightly immer margin). Since we're only talking about quality of story here, the sheer mass of sidequests in BG2 doesn't come into play. And while some sidestories are brilliant, some are awful. In the end, I think it balances out. Again, the comparison is hardly fair to either game though.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Spider