NWN2 OC playtime

[Cantousent]

I think we should give Gromnir credit. Of course, the company cannot even acknowledge that there was any amount of pressure, let alone that it was willing to bow to it. However, we know that companies do make changes and insert content on the more vocal voices of the community.

 

So, it's a win/win. The folks who want to think Gromnir didn't have a point at the beginning can just say, "Obsidian didn't care a whit about what folks said on the message board. Gromnir's fooling himself."

 

Gromnir can say, "You might think so, but the only verified estimate of game length before release was Feargus' 20 hour blurb. It seems that something encouraged the company to delay release long enough to insert content."

 

Some of that content was related to the DM client, as I understand it. I haven't had time to keep abreast of these things. What I can tell you is that creating some heat online does have an effect on the design. For that reason, I'm willing to give Gromnir some credit for generating that heat.

 

Oh, and I'm not hung up on game length. A twenty hour game might not be such a bad thing, but I suspect that the grief on the NWN 2 boards right now would not compare to the grief we'd've seen had the game been twenty-hours long. I wouldn't hold it against the devs if the game had been a great twenty hours, but a lot of folks would. ...And that's assuming you can make an epic, broadly appealing CRPG that's so good that the mass of gamers don't resent a twenty-hour initial play time.

[Darque]

I think I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past 50 at this point.

 

So I win! :joy:

[alanschu]

I think I was more just defensive because he referred to me specifically as a "full o' crap clown."

 

Coupled with the fact that he basically said it was all because of him and the other complainers, gives the impression that he was just here to toot his own horn, and insult those that didn't share his view.

 

So what I'm seeing here is the announcement of a delay in July 2006 (two months after the post in this thread where we made our original predictions), it was able to readd 30-40 hours of gameplay (using Atari's 50-60 hour game comment that went with the announcement of the delay) that was cut (150-200% of the 'original' 20 hour estimate). Not too shabby.

 

Sorry, but I'm skeptical that any decision to cut more than 50% of the game was made, and then reversed. Especially based on forum complaints. I'd be much more willing to accept an idea that someone went "Hey, if you get rid of 50%+ of our game, our story really isn't going to make any sense at all." But even then, the extension that happened in July was only a one month long extension. So once again, if they were able to readd 30-40 hours of gameplay with a mere additional one month's time (plus a mini-delay of a few weeks in September), then kudos to them once again. Though I suppose you could argue that they starting doing this with the first delay, they just needed more time.

 

 

The thing is, before Gromnir was tossing around insults and patting himself on the back in this thread, he was getting on people's cases for taking more stock in Nathanial's comments about the length of the game. He was chiding on people for remaining optimistic about the game.

 

And Eldar, you were even of the opinion that Nathanial wouldn't be lying either. Nathanial even made his comments AFTER stuff had been cut (Spider commented that he felt it was too convenient). You yourself felt that the 30-40 hour mark was much more reasonable.

 

Patrick Mills also made a comment at E3, reiterating the 30-40 hour mark, as a guideline for those that will power through the game.

 

 

The fact is, many people believed the 30-40 hour comments that people were making, rather than Feargus' 20 hour mark that he held on to, yet now we're supposed to thank Gromnir because he was fighting the good fight and well all get to benefit because of his hard work. Puh-leeze

 

 

I won't dipsute that concerns brought up by the forum community can have an influence, but to have the game suddenly go from 20 hours, to 50-60 hours in such a short time because of complaints on message boards? And Gromnir made fun of us for being optimistic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 15, 2006 by alanschu

[Gromnir]

"I think I was more just defensive because he referred to me specifically as a "full o' crap clown.""

 

never happened. never referre to you specific. we spoke of a general group of fools who claimed that a 20 hour game would be okie dokie... folks who now gots the juice to commend game and developers for being +40. you think you is part of that group? a few months ago many of you were saying that it not really matter how long game were, but it were simply quality that mattered... now there is special kudos for hitting/breaking 40?

 

pick a side.

 

oh, and yeah, if game had been released in july or mid-october we would have thought game were doomed. the POINT is that atari did the unexpected thing... they did the right thing. they listened to complaints and they considered long-term ramifications of releasing a short and buggy game... and unlike toee and other titles, they did not rush to release.

 

yes, you were pipe-dream optimistic if you thought game woulda' been good if it had been released when announced, and pretty much nobody thought atari were gonna change release date. a couple of developers even noted that a change in release date were implausible.

 

oh, and Gromnir is not patting self on back. am just 1 poster. we represent 1 potential purchase... and not even that as it turns out as we gots game for free. am honestly surprised that somebody at obsidian lobbied hard 'nuff and that somebody at atari listened to complaints and considered the potential future complaintws if game had been released in condition so many of you noted you was being satisfied with getting.

 

 

again, you can point out dev estimates from e3, but we can brings up that reason given for delay were to expand gameplay and length.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sand]

Does it matter what caused the delay? Nope. Its out now and that is all that matters. Obsidian just needs to keep the patches coming and keep plugging at the game.

[alanschu]

never happened. never referre to you specific. we spoke of a general group of fools who claimed that a 20 hour game would be okie dokie... folks who now gots the juice to commend game and developers for being +40.

you think you is part of that group?

 

Going by the definition you just gave, it would seem so. But I guess since you didn't explicitly say "alanschu is a full o' crap clown" but rather called the members of a group (which it seems I fit into) a full o' crap clown, it doesn't mean that you called me a full o' crap clown.

 

a few months ago many of you were saying that it not really matter how long game were, but it were simply quality that mattered... now there is special kudos for hitting/breaking 40?

 

And I stand by that statement. I'll always take a really fun 50 hour game over a really fun 20 hour game, but length itself does not predispose itself to fun (look at Morrowind and Oblivion). I'd rather have a really fun 20 hour game, than a long drawn out, boring 50 hour game.

 

yes, you were pipe-dream optimistic if you thought game woulda' been good if it had been released when announced, and pretty much nobody thought atari were gonna change release date. a couple of developers even noted that a change in release date were implausible

 

And you're a grumpy, cynical pessimist if you think that they cut over 60% of the OC due to time constraints, and then decided to readd all of it because of a couple of extra months to work on it.

 

 

again, you can point out dev estimates from e3, but we can brings up that reason given for delay were to expand gameplay and length.

 

I can't find any information on the first delay, but the official Atari line for the second delay in July was "Given the sheer size and scope of Neverwinter Nights 2 and its 50 to 60-hour single player campaign, it was decided to move the global release date of Neverwinter Nights 2 out a month to late October. This extra time is invaluable as it allows fine tuning and polishing of both the single and multiplayer experiences to ultimately deliver a game that exceeds the tremendous expectations of the Neverwinter Nights fanbase."

Edited November 15, 2006 by alanschu

[Dark_Raven]

The funny thing is that, IIRC, a lot of people were voting conservatively because they were all terrified that the large amount of cuts just announced for the game were making it far too short.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

keep in mind that the game were delayed... a couple of times. one reason given for a delay were to be adding some additional content. we got no doubt that it were complaints 'bout anemic hours (and the subsequent realization by developers and publishers in the 11th freaking hour that the Average Gamer wouldn't be happy with a brief oc) that gots nwn2 fleshed out from what we were originally given as estimates.

 

given a substantial delay following these may estimates to add content, we expect that all estimates should probably gets benefit of a +5-10, at least.

 

we ain't played yet, but sounds like hours is okie dokie... but you full-o'-crap clowns who kept telling us that "15-20 hours would be ok" should be thanking Gromnir and the other complainers right 'bout now... or not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have not played yet? What are you waiting for?

[Dark_Raven]

I think I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past 50 at this point.

 

So I win!  :joy:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You win the thread. Enjoy!

 

[J.E. Sawyer]

keep in mind that the game were delayed... a couple of times.  one reason given for a delay were to be adding some additional content.

In reality, a large amount of area content (and some companion content -- poor Casavir) was cut.

 

EDIT: Also, features.

 

EDIT 2: I always thought that, even with the cuts, there would be enough content. My concern was mostly about the quality of the content.

[Dark_Raven]

keep in mind that the game were delayed... a couple of times.  one reason given for a delay were to be adding some additional content.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In reality, a large amount of area content (and some companion content -- poor Casavir) was cut.

 

EDIT: Also, features.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is so sad to hear. If there was to be an expansion, would this stuff be brought back in? Or perhaps we need to rely on modders to restore it?

[Meshugger]

keep in mind that the game were delayed... a couple of times.  one reason given for a delay were to be adding some additional content.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In reality, a large amount of area content (and some companion content -- poor Casavir) was cut.

 

EDIT: Also, features.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is so sad to hear. If there was to be an expansion, would this stuff be brought back in? Or perhaps we need to rely on modders to restore it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I had very same idea. Why not add it in an expansion? Especially the features.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Meshugger

[Pop]

I never did find out what Cassie's big shame was. He kind of hinted at it, but the Shadow Priest at the orc cave said something about dark deeds and black hearts and such, and abruptly leaving NW didn't seem to be that big of a deal.

 

Maybe I just wasn't influential enough, or maybe I didn't set off some trigger.

 

I'm assuming the cut content / features aren't the kinds of things that would be included in patches?

 

*btw - Took me about 40 hours or so to beat the game, but going through my second time I've found that I've neglected a few hours' worth of questage.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Pop

[Pidesco]

Can you tell us about some of the harder decisions that had to be made?

[Cantousent]

In light of your comments, Sawyer, it seems Feargus' comments lacked discretion.

[Cantousent]

again, you can point out dev estimates from e3, but we can brings up that reason given for delay were to expand gameplay and length.

 

I can't find any information on the first delay, but the official Atari line for the second delay in July was "Given the sheer size and scope of Neverwinter Nights 2 and its 50 to 60-hour single player campaign, it was decided to move the global release date of Neverwinter Nights 2 out a month to late October. This extra time is invaluable as it allows fine tuning and polishing of both the single and multiplayer experiences to ultimately deliver a game that exceeds the tremendous expectations of the Neverwinter Nights fanbase."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That quote itself sounds like damage control to me. I'm not really taking sides, although I think we need a few curmudgeons every now and then to pound the table. ...And if we believe Sawyer, which I do, then Obsidian wanted to reassure us as to game length. Maybe the whole incident with the German magazine was a comment made off the cuff and attributed with too much importance. Maybe Feargus was trying to manage our expectations and it backfired. Whatever happened, the game came out with a good story delivered over a reasonable amount of time.

 

Between Oblivion, Gothic, and NWN2, folks who prefer a longer game have reason to take heart. Don't kid yourself by thinking that game companies wouldn't rather cut expenses and make shorter games. It's only by sales and agitation that we get longer games, and I can't scorn someone like Gromnir who pounds his shoe on the table. Sure, he's a grouchy oldster with a cynical outlook. That's part of his charm as well as the biggest benefit he brings to the community.

 

EDIT: Pardon me, cold and cold medicine have made me a little loopy. By "if we believe Sawyer, then Obsidian wanted to reassure us as to game length," my assumption is that the game was plenty long enough all along and the various comments reassuring us concerning game length are aimed at conveying that idea to the consumer.

[alanschu]

That quote itself sounds like damage control to me. I'm not really taking sides, although I think we need a few curmudgeons every now and then to pound the table. ...And if we believe Sawyer, which I do, then Obsidian wanted to reassure us as to game length. Maybe the whole incident with the German magazine was a comment made off the cuff and attributed with too much importance. Maybe Feargus was trying to manage our expectations and it backfired. Whatever happened, the game came out with a good story delivered over a reasonable amount of time.

 

Keep in mind that that quote was made by Atari in mid-July, whereas the Feargus hoopla was back in May.

[Cantousent]

Yeah, that's true. I think most folks were pretty well reassured within a couple of weeks. Sawyer made his comments at the time and then we had some folks giving opinions as to game length. That was one of the reasons I stopped agitating myself. I took the devs at their word.

[J.E. Sawyer]

In light of your comments, Sawyer, it seems Feargus' comments lacked discretion.

Personally, I don't like commenting on gameplay hour estimates unless I feel really comfortable amount it -- usually after I've played through the entire game. So regardless of whether I thought the OC would be "enough" "too little" or "too much" for various people, I did not give out hour estimates when I thought it would premature to do so.

 

Before Ferret left, several areas and some features had already been cut. When I became lead, a few more areas and a lot more features were cut. As far as what was hard and what was easy -- very little was easy. When a game has been under development for a year and a half, there's only so much you can change in the home stretch.

 

Most of the big stuff that was cut was detailed on the Bio forums, usually when I let people know, "Hey this isn't going to be in." You can't find a single laundry list of it, but there's a slow trickle of expectation-killing over several months in various threads.

[Volourn]

"but the only verified estimate of game length before release was Feargus' 20 hour blurb"

 

That isn't true. There were various 'confirmations' about length prior to release. Feargus' was far from the only one. Not to emntion, we got length estimates from devs personally on both these boards and the BIO boards as well as various sites. Feragus' comments came from some random mag, and wasnever confirmed (or denied) from any Obsidianite. In fact, I beleive it was Mr. Sawyer himself who stated that Mr. U's comment was simply an error.

 

Grom deserves NO credit. His whininga ccomplished nothing but to give all us geek netters soemthing else to spam about. LOL

Edited November 16, 2006 by Volourn

[J.E. Sawyer]

In fact, I beleive it was Mr. sawyer himself who stated that Mr. U's  comment was simply an error.

I denied that it was verifiable, as not even QA had done proper playthroughs at that time. Certainly Feargus hadn't, nor had I.

[Dark_Raven]

keep in mind that the game were delayed... a couple of times.  one reason given for a delay were to be adding some additional content.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In reality, a large amount of area content (and some companion content -- poor Casavir) was cut.

 

EDIT: Also, features.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is so sad to hear. If there was to be an expansion, would this stuff be brought back in? Or perhaps we need to rely on modders to restore it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Someone is evading the question.

[Pop]

Perhaps he just doesn't want to answer He's got no obligation to.

[alanschu]

Because whatever he says here WILL be taken as gospel.

[Cantousent]

Because whatever he says here WILL be taken as gospel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

hahahaha

[Dark_Raven]

It shall be Truth! JE is a mighty Dev and all he says is to be believable. Our beloved Devs here would not lie to us fanatics.