KotOR2 confirmed at 1Up.com

[AlanC9]

Otherwise you take a big risk as a new software house making an original game. Even though Obsidian has a lot of pedigree its still not that well known outside gaming circles.

Not to mention capitalization. It takes a lot of man hours to do an original game. That equals a lot of money. There just aren't as many venture capitalists throwing big checks around anymore.

[gecko]

Besides, with all the talent locked up in obsidian, I was really really really hoping for something original.

Original is best saved for when you are an established name. Obsidian have been incredibly lucky if they have indeed snagged KOTOR 2 as their very first title.

 

Look at Bioware. Everyone knows who they are now they have been doing D&D and StarWars over the last couple of years. Even people who dont hang out on message boards know who they are. Heck my GF even knows who they are.

 

In theory even though Jade Empire is going to be an original game (well sort of) they are hoping that the Bioware name alone now will be enough to sell it. Where as before it was the D&D or SW name which was the driving force.

 

Otherwise you take a big risk as a new software house making an original game. Even though Obsidian has a lot of pedigree its still not that well known outside gaming circles.

I understand all that. I know marketing, and its an up hill battle with a new name and not an established name behind you. I agree that it's good for Obsidian. Its just not good for me.

 

I really hope that this isnt a sign of things to come and RPG's arent all going to turn into these cinimatic extravaganzas and lose that gritty grass roots feel.

[Drakron]

The point, my dear Drakron, is that you've got to show that more people will like a rule change than will dislike it. Otherwise you haven't gained anything by making the change.

 

There are rules and there are rules, for example, the force system of Star Wars d20 provides a better emulation of how the force is despicted in the movies and novels and SWKotOR force system is not a improvemnt over it, its a step back.

 

The crystal upgrade system on the other hand is a welcomed adition.

 

For instance, while some people were asking for one-shot-one-kill, I'm not at all convinced that the game would have played better that way. Everyone always likes those rules right until they happen to their own characters.

 

Star Wars d20 have a vitality point system and a wound system, heroic classes have vitality as non heroic classes do not so if a commoner with 10 Constition is hit for 12 damage he pretty much gets killed.

 

Of course the advantage of system system is emulation of the movies and novels were grunts gets killed with one hit (and being able to deal damage to the heroes) and still allow the "epic" battles with players having a the change to survive at low levels.

 

Really, it's a burden-of-proof question. The easiest thing to do is leave the rules utterly unchanged. You want something changed, you're going to have to make a case that it's worth the effort. Saying that "original intent" should be the priority isn't going to interest a sequel developer. You're kidding yourself if you think it will.

 

The original intent of skills in Star Wars d20 is to allow players to use character skills to achive goals, it being build a lightsaber, download the TIE Defender blueprints or open a locked door without help from "unlimited items" (true that items that give a bonus to skill do exist is SW d20) to a point were a untrained character can perform a heart transplant with success.

 

I agree that the skill should have been more useful. But even if it had been, I don't think it would have changed people's approach to the skill.

 

Oh but you are wrong, if anything people tend to try to make a "optimal" path that gives then the best solution.

 

And that is why people pump persuade, so they can redeem Bastila and get all the rewards in using such skill since persuade impact on the game is the very high and there is no "eye lashes +10" to give that skill a bonus.

 

Anyway, I don't have any disagreement with changing the spike rules, since I don't think the change will make any difference in gameplay at all. So let's move on to more fruitful areas of disagreement.

 

I bet some people like spikes, spikes could work if they were required for starting computer hacking access but that is a bit too much of "tracking" (like spell compoments) that bogs down the game into storage magerment.

 

Its a bit like water and food, some people like systems that uses then as other simply dont use then or use a hybrid system.

[kefka]

I really hope that this isnt a sign of things to come and RPG's arent all going to turn into these cinimatic extravaganzas and lose that gritty grass roots feel.

Why not have the best of both worlds? A game can still be a pure RPG and be a cinematic experience. KotOR maybe overdid the cut-scenes a little, taking away control from the player too many times, but the story couldn't work without them.

 

Technology is changing the face of RPGs, and games in general. You can do so much more now with graphics and sound that they cry out for a movie feel, and designers are only too happy to oblige. Even PS:T had a number of cut-scenes; they weren't too intrusive but they were there to further the story, like KotOR. So it certainly shows that a game need not be crippled by cinematics.

[AlanC9]

T

There are rules and there are rules, for example, the force system of Star Wars d20 provides a better emulation of how the force is despicted in the movies and novels and SWKotOR force system is not a improvemnt over it, its a step back.

 

Clarify how the PnP system's better, please. There wasn't anything in the films that suggested using the Force costs VPs, for instance.

 

 

Star Wars d20 have a vitality point system and a wound system, heroic classes have vitality as non heroic classes do not so if a commoner with 10 Constition is hit for 12 damage he pretty much gets killed.

 

Of course the advantage of system system is emulation of the movies and novels were grunts gets killed with one hit (and being able to deal damage to the heroes) and still allow the "epic" battles with players having a the change to survive at low levels.

 

Not a bad system, really. Kinda reminds me of TORG. But you can accomplish more or less the same thing with low-VP opponents, assuming they have enough AB to hit the PCs

 

 

Oh but you are wrong, if anything people tend to try to make a "optimal" path that gives then the best solution.

 

And that is why people pump persuade, so they can redeem Bastila and get all the rewards in using such skill since persuade impact on the game is the very high and there is no "eye lashes +10" to give that skill a bonus.

 

True, but I don't see how it matters. Unless the game really favors using skills to the point where all players will want to have them or bring T3 (or his equivalent) along - and I don't think you're proposing to make computer use mandatory - the result is still the same. Players who want to use the skill will take high levels of it. Players who don't, won't.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I really hope that this isnt a sign of things to come and RPG's arent all going to turn into these cinimatic extravaganzas and lose that gritty grass roots feel.

Why not have the best of both worlds? A game can still be a pure RPG and be a cinematic experience. KotOR maybe overdid the cut-scenes a little, taking away control from the player too many times, but the story couldn't work without them.

 

Technology is changing the face of RPGs, and games in general. You can do so much more now with graphics and sound that they cry out for a movie feel, and designers are only too happy to oblige. Even PS:T had a number of cut-scenes; they weren't too intrusive but they were there to further the story, like KotOR. So it certainly shows that a game need not be crippled by cinematics.

Cutscenes' basic function is to further a story element when player involvement is not really at stake in the event's unfolding. Player involvement could've been the cause of it, but representation of the actual outcome is what a cutscene usually handles, or should. A cutscene becomes intrusive the minute it takes away command from the player to just show something the player could've noticed himself without a Hollywoodesque extravaganza showing it to him. Nothing wrong with cutscenes, but taking away player control when the player could either solve the situation himself, or see it for himself, is what people tend to dislike about them. If we wanted to have a cinematic experience we'd go to the movies.

 

By the by, which cutscenes do you feel would make the story collapse if they weren't there? Which do you feel were absolutely necessary to show in cutscene form instead of giving control to players?

[kefka]

A cutscene becomes intrusive the minute it takes away command from the player to just show something the player could've noticed himself without a Hollywoodesque extravaganza showing it to him. Nothing wrong with cutscenes, but taking away player control when the player could either solve the situation himself, or see it for himself, is what people tend to dislike about them.

I fully agree with that. Intrusive cutscenes have always been my major gripe about KotOR. Bioware had an obvious reason to do it that way though. KotOR is a story-driven game, and they are telling that story. I didn't like certain situations being forced on me as a player, but then movies do a similar thing to you as a viewer. KotOR was an interactive movie for want of a better term. The story was set in stone with very little room to maneuver, except light or dark.

 

By the by, which cutscenes do you feel would make the story collapse if they weren't there? Which do you feel were absolutely necessary to show in cutscene form instead of giving control to players?

The story wouldn't collapse by removing them, but it would make a helluva lot less sense. And some situations did require a forced cut-scene, most notably Jolee & Juhani before entering the temple. I wanted to go in solo but the way the game was written it required either their sacrifice in the temple or you staying loyal to the Jedi. Would the story have worked without that cutscene? I doubt it without a rewrite since they clearly wanted you to make your choice by killing Jolee.

 

This is but one example, I'm sure there are plenty more.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Cutscenes' basic function is to further a story element when player involvement is not really at stake in the event's unfolding. Player involvement could've been the cause of it, but representation of the actual outcome is what a cutscene usually handles, or should. A cutscene becomes intrusive the minute it takes away command from the player to just show something the player could've noticed himself without a Hollywoodesque extravaganza showing it to him. Nothing wrong with cutscenes, but taking away player control when the player could either solve the situation himself, or see it for himself, is what people tend to dislike about them. If we wanted to have a cinematic experience we'd go to the movies.

 

By the by, which cutscenes do you feel would make the story collapse if they weren't there? Which do you feel were absolutely necessary to show in cutscene form instead of giving control to players?

I agree. Cutscenes and choice really dont together. Cutscenes work very well when you are telling a single story in CGI form. Cutscenes allow you to get both a deeper sense of drama and a much more lively character interaction.

 

What they dont allow for is a great deal of choice. If you imagine the effort that goes into scripting multiple cutscenes it makes word scripting look easy by comparison (and it isnt).

 

When you have a character that should be the players creation you have to give them the leeway to play the character the way they like. Bioware have a habbit of "locking" you into cutscenes to tell their story at the expense of the character being able to go bugger this and hacking whatever is talking in two.

 

Actually Shining Soul which is a cute little GBA game has the right idea about these things. They have cutscenes but you control your character in them. For example if you overhear a conversation , you can either stay hidden and listen, or you can take them by suprise. DAII did this, but it was a one off event in the game.

 

I think Half life had these sorts of things too, but not certain enough to claim it is so.

 

If the game is going to give me choice then I expect it. I dont expect it from an FF game (although you do get some choice of cutscenes, but no where near the ammount of variable dialogue you get in KOTOR).

 

KOTOR is unique in that its the first game that has had you playing a pregenerated character without knowing about it from the outset. In PST it was very obvious from the start. This makes KOTOR a bit difficult to catagorise but if you look most of the major cutscenes are between Revan (as in not your character) and others.

Where your actual character is involved the cutscenes are less common.

 

My personal feelings are that if you are going to go for a traditional CRPG (ala FO) then the only CGI should be a big intro to get the player into the game. And a big extro to take them out of it and reward them for their effort.

 

If the game is divided into chapters then cutscenes between chapters are fine too because it gives you a nice interlude but dosnt interfere with the gameplay.

[Dhruin]

 

That game 'A' sold more than game 'B' is a pretty spurious argument, as is the idea of "universal opinion".  Still, of course adhering to a ruleset doesn't guarantee a good game.  KotOR seriously lacked good roleplay depth, lacked enough classes and active feats and had balance problems - all things that would improve by staying closer to the original Star Watrs d20 rules.

No because sales are the most important thing to a company the whole point of making something is in hopes you can sell it to as many people as possible.

PnP games are rife balance problems the only difference is that if a DM detects them they can address them on the spot. A computer game cant do that.

 

Thats your opinion only it may be an opinion shared by others but you can hardly claim it as a factual statement.

 

Now I dont know why Revan had to be human. I didnt really see anything in the story that would have precluded a humanoid alien. But as your class only mattered as far as Dantooine (so chapter I) its pretty easy to see why they didnt go overboard on the class choices I think.

 

I'm sure if you look at the SW d20 rules you will find just as many balance issues if not more. D&D is rife with them and I wouldnt expect SW to be different in that respect.

 

oh here we go just found this http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/03/25/news_6092216.html

It's a spurious argument because you didn't prove the sales of either game was related to its rules implementation and because ToEE is a random comparison.

 

Yes, there are balance issues in virtually every game (computer or paper) but rarely as intrusive and obvious as in KotOR. I'm not an expert on Star Wars d20 but in all my years of D&D playing I've never had to fight with a balance issue every game session unlike KotOR with melee vs ranged weapons which affects almost every combat in the game.

 

Your argument that the classes are fairly unimportant in KotOR absolutely reinforces my point about the depth in KotOR - thank you. I can understand that many players want to play a Jedi - but how would it harm the game to have more class depth - even (Shock! Horror!), not play a Jedi? Would it destroy KotOR to support that Bobba Fett bounty hunter? I can't really see how more classes and active feats and weapon balance would make the game too complex for casual players and destroy sales.

 

I'll leave comments on the roleplay depth for another time.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Your argument that the classes are fairly unimportant in KotOR absolutely reinforces my point about the depth in KotOR - thank you.

[tripleRRR]

I would say that being forced to be human and Jedi for KotOR worked once, and only once, because of the story in it.

 

I think it would be an incredible mistake to attempt something like that again. Yes being a human jedi is cool but I would like some more variety.

 

 

TripleRRR

[Dark Lord Revan]

I would say that being forced to be human and Jedi for KotOR worked once, and only once, because of the story in it.

 

I think it would be an incredible mistake to attempt something like that again. Yes being a human jedi is cool but I would like some more variety.

 

 

TripleRRR

Yes! I want to conquer the galaxy as a hutt who commands the force! Then I will be the greatest crime lord of all time!

[Judge Hades]

I wouldn't mind playing a rodian scoundrel/scout who uses his skills to have a comfortable life and stay away from such meaningless conflicts of morality and idealogy.

[Chairchucker]

I wouldn't mind playing a rodian scoundrel/scout who uses his skills to have a comfortable life and stay away from such meaningless conflicts of morality and idealogy.

They could call it "Star Wars: The Sims of the Old Republic".

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I fully agree with that. Intrusive cutscenes have always been my major gripe about KotOR. Bioware had an obvious reason to do it that way though. KotOR is a story-driven game, and they are telling that story.

 

True, true.

 

I didn't like certain situations being forced on me as a player, but then movies do a similar thing to you as a viewer. KotOR was an interactive movie for want of a better term. The story was set in stone with very little room to maneuver, except light or dark.

 

I think comparing it to a movie is not exactly a correct form of comparison, because a movie is meant to be cinematic and doesn't rely on player input to move forward, so its expected of it; but a videogame relies on interactivity to be appreciated and to move forward as well.

 

The story wouldn't collapse by removing them, but it would make a helluva lot less sense. And some situations did require a forced cut-scene, most notably Jolee & Juhani before entering the temple. I wanted to go in solo but the way the game was written it required either their sacrifice in the temple or you staying loyal to the Jedi. Would the story have worked without that cutscene? I doubt it without a rewrite since they clearly wanted you to make your choice by killing Jolee.

 

This is but one example, I'm sure there are plenty more.

 

Granted.

 

I agree. Cutscenes and choice really dont together. Cutscenes work very well when you are telling a single story in CGI form. Cutscenes allow you to get both a deeper sense of drama and a much more lively character interaction.

 

What they dont allow for is a great deal of choice. If you imagine the effort that goes into scripting multiple cutscenes it makes word scripting look easy by comparison (and it isnt).

 

One of the things I also tend to dislike about cutscenes is that i'm a fan of the concept of conveying something's meaning displayed without flair, even if in a scripted fashion. I like the "emergent gameplay" concept and how something like interaction between me and others (or NPCs among themselves) doesn't need a cutscene at all. Quickest example being Deus Ex, which, no doubt had its long share of cutscenes but also had many occasions where NPCs were simulating conversations between themselves, and all you needed was to get close to them to hear it. This kind of approach was, in my opinion, engaging and not as irritating as a cutscene.

 

I think Half life had these sorts of things too, but not certain enough to claim it is so.

 

To be honest, i don't remember many cutscenes in HL, aside the initial event. Most of what i remember from the game is just scripted events which you could be active in (although the majority of times you couldn't do anything useful), but cutscenes, nope.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

One of the things I also tend to dislike about cutscenes is that i'm a fan of the concept of conveying something's meaning displayed without flair, even if in a scripted fashion. I like the "emergent gameplay" concept and how something like interaction between me and others (or NPCs among themselves) doesn't need a cutscene at all. Quickest example being Deus Ex, which, no doubt had its long share of cutscenes but also had many occasions where NPCs were simulating conversations between themselves, and all you needed was to get close to them to hear it. This kind of approach was, in my opinion, engaging and not as irritating as a cutscene.

 

To be honest, i don't remember many cutscenes in HL, aside the initial event. Most of what i remember from the game is just scripted events which you could be active in (although the majority of times you couldn't do anything useful), but cutscenes, nope.

Well people are very visual creatures. If a picture is worth a 1000 words then a cutscene is worth a million. Now that the technology had come to a point where you can use the game engine to produce most of the cutscenes they are more and more common than in the days when you needed to cut away from the game and a have a CGI movie play.

 

Generally the more complex the story the more scenes you will require to tell it. Personally I just treat them as I did the reams of text in PST. Which had very much the same purpose and effect as cutscene has in KOTOR.

 

Someone must remember something about HL

[kefka]

Now that the technology had come to a point where you can use the game engine to produce most of the cutscenes they are more and more common than in the days when you needed to cut away from the game and a have a CGI movie play.

I much prefer cutscenes that use the game engine than CGI movies. I never liked CGI even when FFVII was one of my favorite games. Squaresoft loved them though, which made their in-game graphics seem pathetic by comparison. Nowadays they can look equally as good. I imagine we're only about 5-10 years from photo-realism. That's not an excuse to overdo cutscenes; designers just need to integrate them better so the game plays seamlessly.

 

Someone must remember something about HL

Yes, I do remember something about HL, thanks for asking

 

Oh you mean cutscenes? Well, perhaps, but not many like KotOR that's for sure. I think Valve had an aversion to cutscenes actually, much prefering scripted events.

The only forced cut I can remember is when you're captured by soldiers and put in the trash compactor. You never had the opportunity to fight.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I much prefer cutscenes that use the game engine than CGI movies. I never liked CGI even when FFVII was one of my favorite games. Squaresoft loved them though, which made their in-game graphics seem pathetic by comparison. Nowadays they can look equally as good. I imagine we're only about 5-10 years from photo-realism. That's not an excuse to overdo cutscenes; designers just need to integrate them better so the game plays seamlessly.

 

Oh you mean cutscenes? Well, perhaps, but not many like KotOR's that's for sure. I think Valve had an aversion to cutscenes actually, much prefering scripted events.

The only forced cut I can remember is when you're captured by soldiers and put in the trash compactor. You never had the opportunity to fight.

In X and X-2 the CGI is saved for the big cinematic moments. Yuna and "Tidus" down by the lake in Macalania woods. And the big concert in the Thunder Plains in FFX-2 (which I couldnt figure out until I saw what they had planned then it was just a case of WOW!).Though it bothers me that they translated the song...

 

Otherwise they use the engine. But things have come on in leaps and bounds since FFVII technology wise.

 

Thats them. I just call them interactive cut scenes.I much prefer the idea of not being locked in place while an event is occuring.

[Drakron]

FF VIII had many moments were the scene takes place and we still have control over the character (examples, "the parade" and "the gardens battle") so it is possible.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Thats true, i remember that. The Garden invasion led by Seifer is both interactive (although the scene i'm thinking is sort of like a minigame, go Square!) and cinematic. The particular scene i'm thinking was that of Squall and a Galbadian (?) soldier duking it out while hanging from a jetpack. The mission was to disable the opponent before he disabled you. The jetpack would fly around with both characters hanging on to it, and on ocasions, events happened in the background (specially the big scene between the two armies fighting).

[Darque]

I think interactive cutscense are more fun myself.

 

I bet they are a booger to create though.

[Drakron]

I was talking more of when they crash into the garden and invade it and we see the battlegound as we move into the back entry.

[Volourn]

Final Fantasy 8 rocks! Best FF ever, and one of the best role-playing games ever! Rock on FF8!

 

And, scenes like the one described in this thead is the reason why.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The Jet Pack mini game. That would be the one where Riona gets knocked off the edge and you have to go around the opposite way to rescue her?

 

In the case of that one not difficult to create because it only had two outcomes. Either you fell off or you got the jet pack. The rest of the action was very much background only which you had no actual control over. The beach scene was similiar , what it does very well is to give you a feeling of being part of something much bigger than your own individual combat.

 

Not a huge fan of VIII never liked the overlong battles as you drew cards.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The Jet Pack mini game. That would be the one where Riona gets knocked off the edge and you have to go around the opposite way to rescue her?

 

In the case of that one not difficult to create because it only had two outcomes. Either you fell off or you got the jet pack. The rest of the action was very much background only which you had no actual control over. The beach scene was similiar , what it does very well is to give you a feeling of being part of something much bigger than your own individual combat.

 

Not a huge fan of VIII never liked the overlong battles as you drew cards.

1. I think so. Stupid thing, really, FF8 is my favourite game of the series, yet i don't remember much of it now, as i only played it twice, and lent it to a friend of mine, who hasn't still returned it <_<

 

2. True, but it does constitute the premise for a combination of interactive and cinematic.

 

3. "Drawing cards" in combat? Perhaps you meant drawing magic and the ocasional GF?