Bush changes justification for invasion of Iraq...

[Meshugger]

I think that the closest thing of a "conspiracy" about the currect american administration can be found here.

 

Basically, it's about the principles among Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld about the middle eastern geo-sphere and their mistrust against the CIA. Due to arrogance and self-rightoussness (not power, not oil, nor the trilatoral commission or the counsil of foreign relations and certainly not the illuminati) the Iraqi invasion went the way it did. Bush simply believed in them.

[Judge Hades]

Well, not he is spouting good versus evil crap. Hell, in the eyes of many world leaders HE is viewed as evil.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Volourn]

Bullcrap artcile. Bush and co. gave multiple reasons for the Iraq invasion. It rnaged from WMD programs, to Saddam is evil and a threat, for the Iraqi people, to take out an enemy of the US, and more.

 

There was NEVER just one justification. What a stupid myth to say there was!

 

 

"Hell, in the eyes of many world leaders HE is viewed as evil."

 

Any leader who agrees with NK's leader on ANYTHING, will ALWAYS have a suspect view, imo. Sorry.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Volourn

[Azarkon]

If wars can be justified solely by the good deeds done by those who fight them... Then all wars are good.

 

But of course, you must also look at the other side - for every new school opened, how many innocent children were killed? For every Red Cross truck delivering aid and support, how many Abram tanks were there knocking them down?

 

I support good men and alwalys will. But the doctrine of "support the soldiers - and therefore the war!" is bull**** and always will be.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Azarkon

[Fenghuang]

BUT IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE WAR THE SOLDIERS WILL LOSE MORALE! SUPPORT THE WAR! AND THE SOLDIERS!

[Pop]

It's pretty natural for people to waffle on why we went to war. Cognitive dissonance explains it all pretty tidily. Sticking to the previous rationale (WMDs zomg) would have made us to be tremendous failures, with and without the problem of North Korea, and we can't very well fight a war for a false reason. So we say we went in to free the people of Iraq, which actually more difficult to accomplish, but we can indefinitely prolong to our liking. The reason the war's become more unpopular over time is because it's not looking like we can ensure Iraqi freedom, either.

 

BUT IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT THE WAR THE SOLDIERS WILL LOSE MORALE! SUPPORT THE WAR! AND THE SOLDIERS!

Heh, it seems a bit odd, doesn't it, that we should support someone who engages in an act we find morally reprehensible? "They do what they're ordered" can only get one so far, reasonably. And it's difficult to criticize someone in grave danger.

 

Personally, I subscribe to the idea that those that join the armed forces have implicitly supported my right to condemn them, if I so choose. That's what we're supposed to be fighting for. Restriction of thought is contradictory to a war of freedom.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Pop

[letsryde23]

Just get home safely and save the propaganda.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:ph34r: Damn.... I have been found out.... My super secret plan to recruit rabid Obsidian fans and Moderators into the Army has come crashing to an end, if it werent for your willy instincts and super hero bravery, NVN 2 might never had come out due to the Dev. team running of to be combat engineers

 

Thanks for the welcome :D

 

SPC(p) Schafer.... Jessie schafer :ph34r:

[WITHTEETH]

Bush shifted his war justification to one of liberating Iraqis from a brutal ruler.

Yea Saddam tortured his own people, but atleast he didn't let a religious war to start and kill 600,000 iraqi's. Is this another "Mission Accomplished" moment for the bush administration or what?

-we've helped kill 600,000 iraqi's

-we torture whoever we want

-we've raped little girls, and shot a family exectution style

-bombed entire families because of a sneaking suspicion

-Let the ****es and Sunnis start a war within their own country, killing themselves in horrible ways

-Iraqi's have had tons of anti war protests against the US

- Recent study showed that Iraq is not safer now then when it was with Saddam

[Judge Hades]

Bullcrap artcile. Bush and co. gave multiple reasons for the Iraq invasion. It rnaged from WMD programs, to Saddam is evil and a threat, for the Iraqi people, to take out an enemy of the US, and more.

 

There was NEVER just one justification. What a stupid myth to say there was!

 

 

"Hell, in the eyes of many world leaders HE is viewed as evil."

 

Any leader who agrees with NK's leader on ANYTHING, will ALWAYS have a suspect view, imo. Sorry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The only justification that matters is if Saddam Hussein was a threat to US citizens on US soil. He was not therefore the US invasion was indeed unjustified. Now North Korea is become a threat to US citizens on US soil if they are allowed to perfect their missile and nuclear warhead technology. North Korea is far more the greater threat than Iraq and what has Bush done? Seek wimpy sanctions and getting third party nations to solve the issue for him.

 

He should have taken a stronger stance on the actual threat and keep Iraq contained.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Volourn]

So US citizens only matter if they ar eon US soil? So, you don't consider all the US citizens in Japan, NK, or even China to be important? WOWSERS!

 

 

"-we've helped kill 600,000 iraqi's"

 

Proof please. And, real proof, at that.

[letsryde23]

Bush shifted his war justification to one of liberating Iraqis from a brutal ruler.

Yea Saddam tortured his own people, but atleast he didn't let a religious war to start and kill 600,000 iraqi's. Is this another "Mission Accomplished" moment for the bush administration or what?

-we've helped kill 600,000 iraqi's

-we torture whoever we want

-we've raped little girls, and shot a family exectution style

-bombed entire families because of a sneaking suspicion

-Let the ****es and Sunnis start a war within their own country, killing themselves in horrible ways

-Iraqi's have had tons of anti war protests against the US

- Recent study showed that Iraq is not safer now then when it was with Saddam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The study that 600,000 iraqis have been killed is unsubstantiated and these numbers were gathered using a theoretical study.....

[Judge Hades]

So US citizens only matter if they ar eon US soil? So, you don't consider all the US citizens in Japan, NK, or even China to be important? WOWSERS!

 

 

"-we've helped kill 600,000 iraqi's"

 

Proof please. And, real proof, at that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I did not say that but they are at significant more risk than those on US soil by depending on another country's security.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Colrom]

Hey Jessie, you're famous! Unless it isn't you.

 

You are quoted in StrikerTorch 16 Ed. 23 Apr 06 on page 3 commenting about shooting performance during a best squad competion in Kuwait! No picture of you though. Just the quote. Check it out if you haven't seen it already!

Edited October 15, 2006 by Colrom

[~Di]

As a soldier currently engaged in the war in Iraq, FROM Iraq, i can say with certainty that most of us believe in what wer're doin over here and its proven on the smiles on Iraqi childrens faces when we open up a new school for them, or pass out soccer balls to a throng of kids who are chasing our HMMWV's down. Maybe the reason for which we invaded Iraq was clearly a mistake, but telling a soldier that being here is wrong because gas prices are getting high is a bad  thing to say. I would like to think that some of my close personal friends who lost thier lives would think the same way....

 

SPC Jessie Schafer

A/40th En Bn U.S. Army

Ramadi, Iraq

 

(20 some odd days till i get home.....)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just get home safely and save the propaganda.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That was rude and uncalled for, Colrom.

Edited October 15, 2006 by ~Di

[letsryde23]

Hey Jessie, you're famous!  Unless it isn't you.

 

You are quoted in StrikerTorch 16 Ed. 23 Apr 06 on page 3 commenting about shooting performance during a best squad competion in Kuwait! No picture of you though. Just the quote. Check it out if you haven't seen it already! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ha, you read the Striker Torch?! thats carzy.... yeah, thats me probably saying some B.S. statment about my squad leaders training huh? and be glad theres no picture of me

 

And i didnt take any offense to your earlier statement about the whole propaganda thing.... I;m not easily offended and respect peoples opinions...

[Colrom]

Not usually.

 

All my childhood military friends are on the wall.

 

I never went. (But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.) I did research on a few things for the military.

 

One of my sons got in and out without excitement.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Colrom

[WITHTEETH]

So US citizens only matter if they ar eon US soil? So, you don't consider all the US citizens in Japan, NK, or even China to be important? WOWSERS!

 

 

"-we've helped kill 600,000 iraqi's"

 

Proof please. And, real proof, at that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was a US university study by method of random sampling ALL over Iraq, not just Baghdad. I believe this study and method to be quite credible.

 

I know the president said 30K in december. have you guys been looking at the news the past few years at just how many deaths have been going on in just Baghdad alone? That must be 40k alone.

 

The study that 600,000 iraqis have been killed is unsubstantiated and these numbers were gathered using a theoretical study.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They collected data all over iraq (not just baghdad) and gave the results back. Its statistics, its how science works.

To knock on every iraqi door would be a better way to get a more exact number but that takes alot of time. This method the university used is also used for science all the time. science is statistics, its getting as much data as possible and coming up with the best conclusion possible with what knowledge we have.

Edited October 16, 2006 by WITHTEETH

[alanschu]

They collected data all over iraq (not just baghdad) and gave the results back. Its statistics, its how science works

 

science is statistics, its getting as much data as possible and coming up with the best conclusion possible with what knowledge we have.

 

I'd be careful saying stuff like this. You might make some scientists angry.

[LadyCrimson]

:ph34r:  Damn.... I have been found out.... My super secret plan to recruit rabid Obsidian fans and Moderators into the Army has come crashing to an end, if it werent for your willy instincts and super hero bravery, NVN 2 might never had come out due to the Dev. team running of to be combat engineers   

 

Thanks for the welcome  :D

I have nothing to the discussion at hand...but I wanted to say...thanks for the chuckle.

I'll add my forum-welcome and well wishes to the wagon, as well.

[Pidesco]

"Willy instincts"?

[Tigranes]

Colrom *was* rude, but that does not destroy his argument entirely.

 

I have every respect for those who volunteer to do something I don't foresee myself having the courage to do; and even if I do this does not make them, individually, any less salutory. And with all that respect in mind, I believe that a soldier's perspective has great value in a discussion about any war thanks to information and perspective only they can offer; but that is exactly and only that. That should not mean a soldier's perspective influences as emotionally in such judgments, or they have more bearing on a principally political matter than anybody eldse's. And I don't believe letsryde wanted to exert that sort of unfair influence, but rather simply express what she felt from her situation.

 

Is us saying the war was wrong, or the war should have never happened, detrimental to soldiers? I don't believe so. If we say 'well it's our soldiers in there now, we have to support the war' then it is a logical fallacy, it is unfair on the soldiers and it is dangerous. To say that a death sentence shouold never have happened, and to oppose the judge's ruling, is not to trivialise or undermine the sufferings of that dead innocent; to say that Katrina aid efforts were ill coordinated (or whatever disaster) is no disrespect to the individual people's efforts at aid. It is a comment aimed at the managerial level and is perfectly valid and respectful.

 

That said, let me enter the current discussion at hand. We've got the death toll coming up again. Does it really matter if it's 600,000 or 200,000? Sadly, it does to the wider world - but should we individually let that matter? Should even three thousand innocent Iraqis have died? No. And the question is not even 'it's better than people dying under Saddam's regime'. The moment a powerful nation such as America illegally, callously and without wide international backing forcibly destroy a nation's sovereignty we allow ourselves to be faced with a powerful conundrum; will we become like those who are so blind in their own sense of right or wrong we seek to superimpose it on everyone else - will we become like fanatical evangelists or madmen, or cultists or whatnot, but with more power? Or will we become theoretically consistent but practically intolerable, allowing what we see as depravities to continue? Both are bad choices; but for the US, the choice was made without public consent, and for the world, without any consent.

 

Why, yes, George Bush was diplomatically elected. But in 2000 he was saying things on TV like "nation-building is wrong", US shouldnt meddle in other nations' affairs, and pretty much the antithesis of everything he said after 9/11. That's the man, who piggybacked the Mission of God stuff, americans voted. They could not have counted for what happened after 9/11, a slow, creeping development of military involvement. Nothing was sudden. I cried expletives as soon as Bush's first speeches regarding the specific elimination of Al Qaeda were expressed, and feared the destruction of at least one nation's infrastructure under Ameircan 'liberator' troops. Not all American troops are bad; perhaps none are bad; and certainly by our standards they've done a lot of good as well as bad. American troops, mostly, are not bloodthirsty or 'evil'. But my point stands, and I hope we can see that. People who cried foul such as I so early were seen as simply over-reacting, and perhaps that might have been true had things happenedd a little differently. As it is now... would Bush have been elected in 2003, if he advocated war on Iraq even without UN sanctions? I doubt it. So who's really in control in this democratic world we claim to build in Iraq?

Edited October 16, 2006 by Tigranes

[Colrom]

I'm glad to see that folks have become sensitive to rudeness here on the forum.

 

It is a pleasant turn for the better.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Colrom

[LoneWolf16]

Bullcrap artcile. Bush and co. gave multiple reasons for the Iraq invasion. It rnaged from WMD programs, to Saddam is evil and a threat, for the Iraqi people, to take out an enemy of the US, and more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The primary reason, which was repeated almost ad infinitum...was that Saddam had WMDs, our country was in imminent danger, and we needed to remove the threat. That was the overarching rationale used to incite all of us to action.

 

Most people I've spoken to say that had they known there were no WMDs, they wouldn't have been behind the war effort.

 

It's almost awe-inspiring that he keeps contradicting himself on big, big things, and is recorded saying them....but continues to argue that he didn't actually say those things...

 

A "Yeah, we screwed up, we're there now so let's finish it" would be good about now.

 

And this thing with North Korea, dear god, don't start another conflict until we've got all of our ducks in a row. Stuff like not having proper body armor for our vehicles and soldiers is not going to fly if U.S. forces wind up fighting through NK streets.

 

Hopefully it doesn't come to that...

[letsryde23]

"Willy instincts"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah it was supposed to only have one "L".... i.e.

 

"wil-y  /wa-li/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wahy-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation"

 

"

[letsryde23]

I'm glad to see that folks have become sensitive to rudeness here on the forum.

 

It is a pleasant turn for the better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Like i said before I wasnt offended, being in the military, you have to have a sense of humor. But it seems that other people were offended for me )