Oblivion First Impressions

[Llyranor]

Like Dhrin says, given the context of the game design, the main storyline ends up in a pretty awkward position and feels rather inappropriate.

 

Would I have enjoyed a storyline that actually integrated exploration and made more sense within that context? Highly likely. There's a certain difference in motivational plausibility between a someone looking for menial jobs to do for a living and someone who does them despite being tasked to save the world. Just because the latter is more 'epic' doesn't make it a better story intrinsically. You can pretty well adapt the first scenario into something compelling both in the story sense and in the world/gameplay/roleplaying sense.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It appears as though the person playing that game doesn't understand the fundamentals of combat.  Enemy scaling only maintains a similar difficulty level, given you know how to fight at higher levels, and have intested the time required to get equipment on par with your current level.  Is it perfect?  No.  But it's not nearly as bad as you (or whoever you got that information from) make it out to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes it is that bad because collecting the equipment needed will invariably lead to more leveling.

 

If you think taking on a two clanfear and friends because the guards didnt scale with it is the same difficulty, well you dont know what you are talking about simple as that.

Edited April 2, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Like Dhrin says, given the context of the game design, the main storyline ends up in a pretty awkward position and feels rather inappropriate.

 

Would I have enjoyed a storyline that actually integrated exploration and made more sense within that context? Highly likely. There's a certain difference in motivational plausibility between a someone looking for menial jobs to do for a living and someone who does them despite being tasked to save the world. Just because the latter is more 'epic' doesn't make it a better story intrinsically. You can pretty well adapt the first scenario into something compelling both in the story sense and in the world/gameplay/roleplaying sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well in a MMO (since thats what Oblivion has the most in common with) you do menial jobs because you cant really do much else. However because of scaling you can pretty much do whatever you like, it's quite pointless picking up rusty things and selling them off since by the time anything worth buying appears, well it's raining max profit items anyway.

 

If your going to have a story that you spend that much time away from it needs to be so much better in order to remain compelling.

[10k fists]

Yes it is that bad because collecting the equipment needed will invariably lead to more leveling.

 

If you think taking on a two clanfear and friends because the guards didnt scale with it is the same difficult, well you dont know what you are talking about simple as that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, it's not that bad, because at level 12, you've fought enough battles, killed enough enemies, and explored enough terrain to have obtained the proper equipment needed to keep pushing through at that level. At level 12, you're finding dwarven/mithril equipment, and also finding powerful magic chain/steel equipment.

 

While the guards don't level with you as much, they aren't needed once you reach higher levels, because you should be hitting enemies with a greater deal of damage, and have equipment that can handle the damage they dish back. At that level, you should have a higher blade/blunt skill, as well as block so that various power attacks/counters will be increasingly effective while in combat.

 

On the other hand, if you're level 12 and a mage, then you've gotten access to much more powerful spells. With that, comes the added bonus that many daedra have elemental weaknesses of some kind, it'll allow you to dispatch them easier.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

No, it's not that bad, because at level 12, you've fought enough battles, killed enough enemies, and explored enough terrain to have obtained the proper equipment needed to keep pushing through at that level.  At level 12, you're finding dwarven/mithril equipment, and also finding powerful magic chain/steel equipment.

 

While the guards don't level with you as much, they aren't needed once you reach higher levels, because you should be hitting enemies with a greater deal of damage, and have equipment that can handle the damage they dish back.  At that level, you should have a higher blade/blunt skill, as well as block so that various power attacks/counters will be increasingly effective while in combat.

 

On the other hand, if you're level 12 and a mage, then you've gotten access to much more powerful spells.  With that, comes the added bonus that many daedra have elemental weaknesses of some kind, it'll allow you to dispatch them easier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wrong.

 

Nice theory and all, but it depends entirely on your skillset and what you happened to come across. I did have a dwarven axe, did oh what was it 4 damage

 

Wrong again. When you have 2 clanfear, a fire antoroch and a deadra summoning stuff in that sort of space those guards are quite important.

Clanfear have damage shields, since you seem unaware it so even with full steel plate, your still going to take huge ammounts of damage once the guards go down.

 

Are you actually speaking from experience or just what you have read ?

[Dhruin]

...and heaven help the character who foolishly gained some levels by having Speechcraft, Alchemy etc etc as Major skills.

[Cantousent]

I dunno. At level 20, it's pretty much working the way that 10k fists cited for my mage. Sure, I hop around like a rabbit, jumping over stuff to stay away from people, but I can stand toe to toe with Daedra and smite them with glee. The only things that cause me real grief are people who take away my mobility or silence me or both. They really kill me. I've been in all sorts of cramped spaces, but I make do with what I have.

 

All in all, however, I don't like a strict scaling system. Gromnir suggested some sort of "ceiling/basement" thing that would have been much better.

 

"...and heaven help the character who foolishly gained some levels by having Speechcraft, Alchemy etc etc as Major skills. "

 

That would be me. It was stupid to have Speechcraft as a primary skill, but it didn't make the game much harder in my experience. It mostly just irritated me as I could have used a more helpful skill. Hell, I should have taken Alchemy.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Eldar

[10k fists]

Wrong.

 

Nice theory and all, but it depends entirely on your skillset and what you happened to come across. I did have a dwarven axe, did oh what was it 4 damage 

 

Wrong again. When you have 2 clanfear, a fire antoroch and a deadra summoning stuff in that sort of space those guards are quite important.

Clanfear have damage shields, since you seem unaware it so even with full steel plate, your still going to take huge ammounts of damage once the guards go down.

 

Are you actually speaking from experience or just what you have read ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I find it comical that you simply state "wrong". To answer your last question first, yes, I'm speaking from a great deal of experience with Oblivion. A great deal of experience.

 

The axe did "4" damage because your blunt skill was low, a dwarven long sword/claymore would have delt a significant amount of damage in comparison. It's not a matter of what you "happen" to come across, as all equipment is based off your character level. At level 10, you start finding dwarven/mithril equipment, period, end of story. For two entire levels (given you actually made the levels, and didn't sit in town training), you've been fighting bandits and other such enemies. Or perhaps, you've been doing quests, which generally yield even better results than random dungeon searching.

 

If you'd closed Oblivion gates, then you'd have Sigil Stones, which enchant armor/jewlery with constant effect enchantments, or weapons with charged enchantments. These would make your standard equipment even better, had you opted not to use the magical equipment you'd found (at level 10, ontop of finding mithril/dwarven - you also start finding magical chain and steel).

 

Also, at that level, silver weapons are in abundance with smiths, and they do damage close to (but not equal to) dwarven level.

 

Like I said in my first response, it sounds like you, or the person your quoting (regarding the two character builds) just don't know what you're doing in combat. I went through Kvatch at level 14 with little resistance.

 

It's really funny, if you think the clanfears at level 12 are tough, I pity your game when you reach level 20+.

[10k fists]

All in all, however, I don't like a strict scaling system.  Gromnir suggested some sort of "ceiling/basement" thing that would have been much better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What a lot of people don't realize is that there is a "ceiling/basement" concept to Oblivions creature level scaling. While I don't know what Gromnir's suggestion was, in Oblivion it works as follows:

 

At level 10, for instance:

 

You might get ---

 

A lvl 10 enemy

2 lvl 5's

a lvl 8 and another enemy (below your characters level)

Or maybe several level 2's

 

etc...

[Tigranes]

There is such a system, yes, but it is much tighter than the one you have suggested, as various levelling mod attempts have shown. I can also echo SP's sentiment about the main quest:

 

Whereas in Morrowind people did not like leaving the main quest too late or doing it too early because it was too hard / too easy, Oblivion did not solve that problem. As a sneaky character with some Destruction and Alteration in the mix, I was level 13, having levelled every time it wanted me to - which is indeed the NATURAL thing to do when you are first trying a game.

 

 

WHen you enter the plaza, it takes 3 seconds for 4-5 Clannfear to totally destroy those stupid Kvatch guards, their armour doesn't give them any defence. I actually reloaded about 20 times because I refused to succumb and tone down the difficulty: You can't sneak in that place, you can't really dodge in a tight space when 5 Clannfear lunge at you from different places, all conjuration dies too early, etc. If you level up with lots of Speechcraft (which was my highest skill) and doing quests, you will be punished.

 

 

Anyway, about the equipment deal: you have to be X level to get X equipment. So you turn level 10, go to a dungeon to get level 10 equipment, you come out level 12 with level 10 equipment. Then you gotta do it AGAIN. Somebody (SS?)'s suggestion of purposefully levelling slower may work better, but as I said in the Scaling thread, that is an acknowledgement of Oblivion's failings: the system is not natural, and you have to pull from immersion to calculate when and where you want to level up, like when to move to the next level of Mario.

[10k fists]

Having non-combative skills as your major skills make the game increasingly difficult. Of course, this can easily be offset by going out and fighting more, and using the non-combative skills a little less.

 

As I said before, the system isn't perfect, but it is easily managable.

Edited April 2, 2006 by 10k fists

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I find it comical that you simply state "wrong".  To answer your last question first, yes, I'm speaking from a great deal of experience with Oblivion.  A great deal of experience.

 

The axe did "4" damage because your blunt skill was low, a dwarven long sword/claymore would have delt a significant amount of damage in comparison.  It's not a matter of what you "happen" to come across, as all equipment is based off your character level.  At level 10, you start finding dwarven/mithril equipment, period, end of story.  For two entire levels (given you actually made the levels, and didn't sit in town training), you've been fighting bandits and other such enemies.  Or perhaps, you've been doing quests, which generally yield even better results than random dungeon searching.

 

If you'd closed Oblivion gates, then you'd have Sigil Stones, which enchant armor/jewlery with constant effect enchantments, or weapons with charged enchantments.  These would make your standard equipment even better, had you opted not to use the magical equipment you'd found (at level 10, ontop of finding mithril/dwarven - you also start finding magical chain and steel).

 

Also, at that level, silver weapons are in abundance with smiths, and they do damage close to (but not equal to) dwarven level.

 

Like I said in my first response, it sounds like you, or the person your quoting (regarding the two character builds) just don't know what you're doing in combat.  I went through Kvatch at level 14 with little resistance.

 

It's really funny, if you think the clanfears at level 12 are tough, I pity your game when you reach level 20+.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Except I didnt have one

 

You make it sound like two levels are a long time

 

Gates didnt pop up until after closing the first gate.

 

At 20 the game was cake walk

[Tigranes]

10K: Again, one must be conscious of the system's failings and make up for it by juggling around skill uses and whatnot. That is like powergaming to achieve balance, and who wants to do that? I want to be immersed and play. It is a solution for the situation we have, but it is by no means a valid excuse or defence.

 

you've been doing quests, which generally yield even better results than random dungeon searching.

 

Nope. Quest rewards also scale to your level half the time, and half of them are gold. Try going into

Kvatch

with a level 14 character, 50-60marksman/sneak but 20 blade and 12 blunt, 35 endurance, 45 strength. Or are you going to tell me that I made the wrong decision to make such a character? Cause I thought the point of TES was to let you make any character you want.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Tigranes

[10k fists]

Except I didnt have one 

 

You make it sound like two levels are a long time 

 

Gates didnt pop up until after closing the first gate.

 

At 20 the game was cake walk

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're confusing time with quantity. During the process of gaining two levels, you'll be presented with dozens of combat situations, unless you train. All these combat situations give you chances of finding equipment. All of the combat situations with "bandits" always give you equipment for your level.

 

If you found it a "cake walk" at level 20, yet found your level 12 character "almost useless" because of the difficulty, then my first assumption stands true, you really didn't know what you were doing at level 12.

[10k fists]

10K: Again, one must be conscious of the system's failings and make up for it by juggling around skill uses and whatnot. That is like powergaming to achieve balance, and who wants to do that? I want to be immersed and play. It is a solution for the situation we have, but it is by no means a valid excuse or defence.

 

you've been doing quests, which generally yield even better results than random dungeon searching.

 

Nope. Quest rewards also scale to your level half the time, and half of them are gold. Try going into

Kvatch

with a level 14 character, 50-60marksman/sneak but 20 blade and 12 blunt, 35 endurance, 45 strength. Or are you going to tell me that I made the wrong decision to make such a character? Cause I thought the point of TES was to let you make any character you want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Please note, that I clearly stated that the system wasn't perfect. With that level of marksman, I'd think you'd have an even easier time in Kvatch. There are plenty of areas that you can jump to where enemies without a ranged attack can't hit you. Just look at all the knocked over pillars, crumbled walls, etc...

 

That's how I went through with a mage, get off the ground, and start throwing magic.

 

Again, it's not perfect, I never said it was. Don't confuse my discussion with blind defense for the game. :D

[Shadowstrider]

Like Dhrin says, given the context of the game design, the main storyline ends up in a pretty awkward position and feels rather inappropriate.

 

Would I have enjoyed a storyline that actually integrated exploration and made more sense within that context? Highly likely. There's a certain difference in motivational plausibility between a someone looking for menial jobs to do for a living and someone who does them despite being tasked to save the world. Just because the latter is more 'epic' doesn't make it a better story intrinsically. You can pretty well adapt the first scenario into something compelling both in the story sense and in the world/gameplay/roleplaying sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree with this to a point. I do not think the main storyline felt inappropriate, a bit out of place, but not inappropriate. Other than that you are correct, the game could have used a more focused approach. However, that is not what the Elder Scrolls is about. The entire series has been like this, so I'm not sure why you would have expected otherwise.

[Jast]

 

This is where I'm stuck, just in case anyone is wondering.

 

Got this screenie off another forum.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Jast

[Kaftan Barlast]

I need help, I bought the haunted house in Anvil.

I found the sealed passage in the basement but I cant open it, its not locked or anything, its just that nothing whatsoever happen when I try to open it. I tried sleeping in the bed for an hour which trigger some ghosts that attack me. But no matter what I do, nothing happens with the thing in the basement. Have I missed something here or is there a trigger somwhere that hasnt gone off properly?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You're confusing time with quantity.  During the process of gaining two levels, you'll be presented with dozens of combat situations, unless you train.  All these combat situations give you chances of finding equipment.  All of the combat situations with "bandits" always give you equipment for your level.

 

If you found it a "cake walk" at level 20, yet found your level 12 character "almost useless" because of the difficulty, then my first assumption stands true, you really didn't know what you were doing at level 12.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And if you keep running across goblins and necromancers? Sure I could have gone looking for bandits but then I would have leveled even more.

 

I found it a cakewalk because of 3 items, those were not items I could have accesed any earlier on.

 

Define needing to know what I was doing ? Did I make a character which would level up slowly ? No , but the game dosnt state that as a requirement. Did I max out all my levels with +5's ? Nope, but again I shouldnt have to.

 

Such a difficulty hike is bad. And the guards not providing the same sort of benifit as they do at lower levels is down to the scaling system , plain and simple.

[Hassat Hunter]

...and heaven help the character who foolishly gained some levels by having Speechcraft, Alchemy etc etc as Major skills.

 

That would be me. Speechcraft/Alchamy and that running/swim (Athletics?) as Major Skills...

 

PS. 12 now and only finding fur stuff

Edited April 2, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Shadowstrider]

I need help, I bought the haunted house in Anvil.

I found the sealed passage in the basement but I cant open it, its not locked or anything, its just that nothing whatsoever happen when I try to open it. I tried sleeping in the bed for an hour which trigger some ghosts that attack me. But no matter what I do, nothing happens with the thing in the basement. Have I missed something here or is there a trigger somwhere that hasnt gone off properly?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I take it you play with the sound off.

 

 

Go look near the entrance to the house, you'll find some freshly broken houseware with a note.

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

...and heaven help the character who foolishly gained some levels by having Speechcraft, Alchemy etc etc as Major skills.

 

That would be me. Speechcraft/Alchamy and that running/swim (Athletics?) as Major Skills...

 

PS. 12 now and only finding fur stuff

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dont recall getting anything better than steel plate (store bought) till around 15. Weapons here and there, but no armour. Weapons pop up a couple of levels before armour by the looks of it.

[10k fists]

And if you keep running across goblins and necromancers? Sure I could have gone looking for bandits but then I would have leveled even more.

 

I found it a cakewalk because of 3 items, those were not items I could have accesed any earlier on.

 

Define needing to know what I was doing ? Did I make a character which would level up slowly ? No , but the game dosnt state that as a requirement. Did I max out all my levels with +5's ? Nope, but again I shouldnt have to.

 

Such a difficulty hike is bad. And the guards not providing the same sort of benifit as they do at lower levels is down to the scaling system , plain and simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok... bandits are those guys that are all over the map when not in town...

You don't really "go looking" for them, they sorta just run at you and either attack outright, or demand gold.

 

It's not really something that you can "define", other than it appears to me as though you ran around, willy nilly, attacking stuff, and then decided to go to Kvatch. You had 11 levels to get used to the level scaling, and the fact that you claim level 20 was a "cake walk" simply shows that you really didn't know what you were doing at level 12. Whether that was being ignorant to equipment and how to obtain it, or fighting enemies during the "low middle level" period.

 

I didn't build a "slow level" character, nor did I ever maximize by attribute distribution to +5 only. Yet, I never found my character to be "almost useless".

 

There's an abundance of cover/tactics to use in Kvatch to give you the time you need to heal or do what you need to do. You don't need the guards, and the fact they don't level scale to your exact same level is moot.

[Hassat Hunter]

Random enemy inventory (level 11):

 

NPC Skelton/Goblin: Steel shield, weak weapon (iron?). Always see 2/3 anyways when I found the dropped items after a big search

Bandit: Fur outfit, occasional iron stuff... weaponry same as skeltons/goblins.

 

Really, almost never does a enemy give me better equip then I have (all steel) since lvl 7; besides those Dwarven Boots (that I found in a box though)

 

EDIT: As a matter of fact... all equipment I use I either found in some box or bought...

Edited April 2, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[StillLife]

Funny I've played a lot of them and I've never seen one that dosnt have side quests. The sidequests may be less obvious than walking up to people in the street and clicking , but they are there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They aren't sidequests if you have to do them to advance the story. They are part of the game's overall, linear plot.

 

Linear plots have already been done quite well in films and literature. Video games, unlike those mediums, have the luxury and capability of allowing the player to create their own story within the context of the gameworld. I'd like to see games, or RPGs at least, advance more in that direction and get way from static stories all together.

 

Of course there are story-obsessed people who just want to play out key moments in a pre-determined epic tale, so it may always be necessary for games to try do both I guess. Oblivion tried, but failed to balance both appropriately with each other IMO. The fact they tried to include both is still a step in the right direction and adds to the games overall quality as far as I'm concerned though.

Edited April 2, 2006 by StillLife