C.S. Lewis quote

[Shadowstrider]

Go ahead.  But you still aren't backing up your statements, as I thought.  Islam was in a way spawned from Christianity, but the God it teaches is very different, teaches radically different doctrines, and also as I said contradicts the Bible.  And unlike Christianity, which was more of a continuation/reformation of Judaism, Islam is a faith which took bits of both religions and added new elements to make itself.  And unlike the Bible, which contains both the Old and New Testaments, the Quran contains neither, and is an entirely new book.  I'll say it again: the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity or Judaism.

 

Here are some examples why:

 

Oh goodie. Rather than actually listen, you do the old song and dance routine.

 

Go read the Blind Men and the Elephant.

 

1.  God is knowable according to the Bible, but according to Islam Allah is unknoweable.

 

Wholey untrue and inaccurate. I'm not sure what you mean by "knowable."

 

In fact, the god of the old testament is purposefully elusive. Yahweh means "I am what I am." This is what he told Jacob, after they wrestled when Jacob asked his name. This was done to prevent Jacob from gaining power over him. According to the belief at the time, to know a god's name and invoke it was to gain power over that god and command it to do your bidding. The god of the old testament purposefully would not reveal it's name, in order to prevent this.

 

You can know OF god, but you cannot know HIM/HER/IT.

 

2.  God is more of a personal being as taught by the Bible, Allah is impersonal.

 

I fail to see how this proves anything. See the link I posted.

 

3.  God of Christianity manifests in three forms (the trinity), Allah is one being.  The Quran also denies the trilogy as blasphemy.

 

Judeism does not embrace the Trinity.

 

4.  God is limited by his nature, meaning he cannot lie, cannot break covenants, cannot do evil, etc.  Allah has no nature to limit himself to.  Allah also is capricious, meaning he could easily say one thing and do another.

 

Support? I'm aware of no quote in scripture that says God is limited. In fact, it says he is infinitely perfect.

 

As for Allah's no limit, both religion's have that. They are defined as infinitely perfect beings. In fact, in Islam, the belief is that humans can only understand 99 of Allah's attributes.

 

5.  God is loving.  The Quran states many adjectives of Allah, but not loving.  This would lower him in a way.  The closest thing it describes him as is compassionate, but that is not the same thing as loving.

 

The Bible says "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV). The converse of this statement is that the rest of humanity will perish, that is, will go to hell without any other way of receiving His forgiveness for the sin they did not commit.

 

"Say, if you love Allah, obey me (Muhammad), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful" (3:31).

 

6.  Allah is passive in history.  He never intervenes except by angels or prophets.  God himself does intervene, including when he came to earth as Jesus.

 

According to Islam, the Allah is responsible for Jesus.

 

"Behold! The Angels said : 'Oh Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee, chosen thee above all the women of all nations'", The Family of Imran : 42.

 

7.  Christianity has a saving intercessor (Jesus), Islam does not.

 

This doesn't prove anything. All prophets are intercessors. They all teach a way to be saved in the eyes of their god.

 

Also combine that with the fact that they teach radically different doctrines as well.  So no, not the same god.  If you'd like more, I shall post them. 

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*Waits for more "proof."*

[Dark Moth]

Would you understand if somebody pointed out that criticising a religion from the perspective of another (somewhat rival) religion is, for lack of a better word, stupid?

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I know that. But you see, I based my reasons on the secular and theological sources I've read. I'm not really looking it from the perspective of my religion. Before I actually studied Islam, I too thought the gods of both religions were the same.

 

I hate you, Blank. Why...why did you do this, man? Why?

 

The Islamic faith apparently took bits and pieces from Judaism and Christianity. So what? Those two religions did the same damned thing with their predecessors.

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Why do you think I never post a religious thread?

 

First off, Judaism didn't really have a predecessor. And second, my point was that Judaism and Christianity were two religions, but with the same God. And Christianity was more of a reformation of Judaism with God being worshipped differently. Islam was more of a faith that borrowed from Judaism and Christianity and combined it with new elements and a deity with a different nature. And unlike Christianity, which recognizes both the Old Testament of Judaism and the New Testament, Islam recognizes neither and takes its lessons from the Quran only.

[LoneWolf16]

First off, Judaism didn't really have a predecessor.

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You're kidding, right?

[Shadowstrider]

The irony is gleaming.

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I didn't think that you would ever have my back. Ofcourse, I doubt that was your intention

[Surreptishus]

Your posts imply biased criticism of Islam, using negative language such as "wrong" as opposed to "different". Your analyses definitely appear to have a pro christian slant to them and i think that is what attracts hostility. Not the fact that it is christian but that there is any slant at all.

[Shadowstrider]

Your posts imply biased criticism of Islam, using negative language such as "wrong" as opposed to "different". Your analyses definitely appear to have a pro christian slant to them and i think that is what attracts hostility. Not the fact that it is christian but that there is any slant at all.

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I, personally, don't care about slant. His statements are entirely fallacious, which is why I'm disproving them. I posted that link for a reason, I doubt he bothered to read any of it. Most people do not.

[thepixiesrock]

The irony is gleaming.

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I didn't think that you would ever have my back. Ofcourse, I doubt that was your intention

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My intention was not to be on someones side, once you pick a side, your focus becomes a little less clear.

[Shadowstrider]

My intention was not to be on someones side, once you pick a side, your focus becomes a little less clear.

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I know. I wasn't saying you were picking my side, I was just surprised that you "had my back."

[Dark Moth]

Go ahead.  But you still aren't backing up your statements, as I thought.  Islam was in a way spawned from Christianity, but the God it teaches is very different, teaches radically different doctrines, and also as I said contradicts the Bible.  And unlike Christianity, which was more of a continuation/reformation of Judaism, Islam is a faith which took bits of both religions and added new elements to make itself.  And unlike the Bible, which contains both the Old and New Testaments, the Quran contains neither, and is an entirely new book.  I'll say it again: the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity or Judaism.

 

Here are some examples why:

 

Oh goodie. Rather than actually listen, you do the old song and dance routine.

 

Go read the Blind Men and the Elephant.

 

1.  God is knowable according to the Bible, but according to Islam Allah is unknoweable.

 

Wholey untrue and inaccurate. I'm not sure what you mean by "knowable."

 

In fact, the god of the old testament is purposefully elusive. Yahweh means "I am what I am." This is what he told Jacob, after they wrestled when Jacob asked his name. This was done to prevent Jacob from gaining power over him. According to the belief at the time, to know a god's name and invoke it was to gain power over that god and command it to do your bidding. The god of the old testament purposefully would not reveal it's name, in order to prevent this.

 

You can know OF god, but you cannot know HIM/HER/IT.

 

2.  God is more of a personal being as taught by the Bible, Allah is impersonal.

 

I fail to see how this proves anything. See the link I posted.

 

3.  God of Christianity manifests in three forms (the trinity), Allah is one being.  The Quran also denies the trilogy as blasphemy.

 

Judeism does not embrace the Trinity.

 

4.  God is limited by his nature, meaning he cannot lie, cannot break covenants, cannot do evil, etc.  Allah has no nature to limit himself to.  Allah also is capricious, meaning he could easily say one thing and do another.

 

Support? I'm aware of no quote in scripture that says God is limited. In fact, it says he is infinitely perfect.

 

As for Allah's no limit, both religion's have that. They are defined as infinitely perfect beings. In fact, in Islam, the belief is that humans can only understand 99 of Allah's attributes.

 

5.  God is loving.  The Quran states many adjectives of Allah, but not loving.  This would lower him in a way.  The closest thing it describes him as is compassionate, but that is not the same thing as loving.

 

The Bible says "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV). The converse of this statement is that the rest of humanity will perish, that is, will go to hell without any other way of receiving His forgiveness for the sin they did not commit.

 

"Say, if you love Allah, obey me (Muhammad), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful" (3:31).

 

6.  Allah is passive in history.  He never intervenes except by angels or prophets.  God himself does intervene, including when he came to earth as Jesus.

 

According to Islam, the Allah is responsible for Jesus.

 

"Behold! The Angels said : 'Oh Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee, chosen thee above all the women of all nations'", The Family of Imran : 42.

 

7.  Christianity has a saving intercessor (Jesus), Islam does not.

 

This doesn't prove anything. All prophets are intercessors. They all teach a way to be saved in the eyes of their god.

 

Also combine that with the fact that they teach radically different doctrines as well.  So no, not the same god.  If you'd like more, I shall post them. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*Waits for more "proof."*

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1. The concept is that a human can be close to God himself, as you would a person. But here there is still a small part of God, since he is a deity, that humans do not know, hence his name. Allah on the other hand cannot be known on a human level.

 

2. God is spoken of as a being with intellect, emotion, and will. Allah is not to be understood as a prson, as it would lower him to the level of a man.

 

3. That was because it was before Jesus's coming. That was when it became a trinity. Islam teaches that those who believe in the trinity are blasphemers. Sura 5:73.

 

4. I meant that God is bound by his nature which means he will not do things that might make him imperfect, hence he cannot lie or do evil. Allah could easily lie or break promises, as he is not bound by any nature of any sort. As for the 99 aspects, you'll see they are things listed that Allah is not, not what he is.

 

5. Ah ah - Not loving in the same way as the bible. In Islam, Allah can only love you if you follow him and obey his commands. Christianity teaches that God loves everyone, even those who do not believe in him.

 

6. Please read my posts more carefully. Allah never intervenes pesonally. He sends prophets, like Jesus or Muhammad, but he never participates himself. Jesus, which Christianity teaches was God, is a perfect example of God intervening himself.

 

7. Not in Jesus's sense. Jesus was supposed to be more than a prophet - he was a Messiah. And he was an intercessor because he enabled humanity to be forgiven of their sins and released from punishment. Islam has none of that.

 

Also, remember both faiths teach very different doctrines and ways to worship God.

[Dark Moth]

Your posts imply biased criticism of Islam, using negative language such as "wrong" as opposed to "different". Your analyses definitely appear to have a pro christian slant to them and i think that is what attracts hostility. Not the fact that it is christian but that there is any slant at all.

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When did I say things like "wrong"? My whole point was just to say the two Gods were different.

 

And Shadowstrider, I know perfectly well why you posted that link. No, I didn't read it because I'm not looking at this from the perspective of my religion alone.

 

Also, here's a quote so you can understand my stance better:

 

"I believe that the key isssue is the question of the nature of God and how He relates to His creatures; Islam and Christianity are, despite formal similiarities, worlds apart on that question." - Dr. Samuel Schlorff.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[thepixiesrock]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

Schlorff.

[Surreptishus]

Sorry, that was a non specific example for illustrative purposes. How about "stole"?

[Dark Moth]

Sorry, that was a non specific example for illustrative purposes. How about "stole"?

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Okay, bad choice of words on my part. :"> Islam does borrow ideas from Christianity and Judaism, but the nature of the two Gods as well as how they relate to humans are different, as stated in the quote.

 

And as for what I said in about the two faiths teaching radically different doctrines, if Shadowstrider really did study Islam, he'd know that already. It's not hard to see how the two faiths teach different things.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[Blank]

I hate you, Blank. Why...why did you do this, man? Why?

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I just don't want anyone to die without having heard the truth.

 

Look from my perspective for a second: i believe that all will be judged by God. I don't want you guys to go to hell, so i am persistantly telling you what i know, and basing it on scripture, since i believe what Hebrews 4:12 says:

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

 

I am just, "one beggar telling another beggar where to find food," so please don't think i am trying to be on a power-trip or ego-boosting quest or something. Hopefully this explains my persistant inclusion of God in a lot of things i post about.

[Judge Hades]

Oh, I noticed Mothman brought up the Trinity which is a joke. Back 400 C.E. at the Council of Chelcedon (msp?) the Bishops there decided to make the idealogy of the Trinity part of Christian dogma. Also it was at that time they decided to diefy Jesus. Before that there were many Christians, mostly in Northern Africa that did not believe Jesus was in fact God, but a messenger and prophet of God. These Christian sects, put off by the Vatican, later converted to Islam which shared their view of Jesus.

[Dark Moth]

Oh, I noticed Mothman brought up the Trinity which is a joke.  Back 400 C.E. at the Council of Chelcedon (msp?) the Bishops there decided to make the idealogy of the Trinity part of Christian dogma.  Also it was at that time they decided to diefy Jesus.  Before that there were many Christians, mostly in Northern Africa that did not believe Jesus was in fact God, but a messenger and prophet of God.  These Christian sects, put off by the Vatican, later converted to Islam which shared their view of Jesus.

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That proves nothing, since Biblical scripture supports the idea of Jesus being God anyway. So it wasn't they who deified Jesus.

[Blank]

Oh, I noticed Mothman brought up the Trinity which is a joke.

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3. That was because it was before Jesus's coming. That was when it became a trinity.

tsk tsk mothy, that isn't really biblical. Look at John chapter 1. Jesus has always been with God, and has always been God.

 

the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, but it is a term coined because of the many instances in the Bible where God appears as three in one.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Blank

[213374U]

I just don't want anyone to die without having heard the truth.

 

Look from my perspective for a second: i believe that all will be judged by God. I don't want you guys to go to hell, so i am persistantly telling you what i know, and basing it on scripture, since i believe what Hebrews 4:12 says:

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

 

I am just, "one beggar telling another beggar where to find food," so please don't think i am trying to be on a power-trip or ego-boosting quest or something. Hopefully this explains my persistant inclusion of God in a lot of things i post about.

Proselytism gets real old, real fast.

[Dark Moth]

Oh, I noticed Mothman brought up the Trinity which is a joke.

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3. That was because it was before Jesus's coming. That was when it became a trinity.

tsk tsk mothy, that isn't really biblical. Look at John chapter 1. Jesus has always been with God, and has always been God.

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Jesus didn't come to earth before though, which is why they didn't know him and Judaism has no concept of a trinity.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mothman

[Judge Hades]

HAHAHAHA!

 

You think that over the past two thousand years that the scriptures haven't been tampered with in one form or another? Oh that is rich! HAHAHA!

 

Here is the link about the council Iwas talking about.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm

 

Be an ignorant good Christian and know I will be laughing at you.

[Surreptishus]

Proselytism gets real old, real fast.

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I was just about to say that!

[Shadowstrider]

1.  The concept is that a human can be close to God himself, as you would a person.  But here there is still a small part of God, since he is a deity, that humans do not know, hence his name.  Allah on the other hand cannot be known on a human level. 

 

2.  God is spoken of as a being with intellect, emotion, and will.  Allah is not to be understood as a prson, as it would lower him to the level of a man.

 

OMG... if I have to point you to The Blind Men and the Elephant one more time, I might actually just put it in my signature.

 

P.S. Allah means god. Its his name as much as God is God's name.

 

3.  That was because it was before Jesus's coming.  That was when it became a trinity.  Islam teaches that those who believe in the trinity are blasphemers.  Sura 5:73.

 

So? That doesn't prove or disprove anything. The point is that each religion is different, but they worship the same being. Christians differently than Jews, and differently from Muslims. In order for you to hold the Trinity up as a different god, you have to say Jews also worship a different god. They don't, they just worship the same god in different ways.

 

Islam sees that Trinity [Father, Son and the Holy Spirit

[Judge Hades]

Only idiots about religion doesn't know that Allah is arabic for God.

[Blank]

Blind man.

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What if you are blind in thinking he is blind? You are just one of the blind men telling the other blind man he is wrong = )

 

(i read the link by the way, and it was a good story i guess. but it proves itself as fallible, in that it assumes there is nobody who is "right", or at least that you never know who is "right", and therefore the story may be blind in and of itself)

[Judge Hades]

The only way to solve the problems of religion is to remove faith and beleif. They are subjective elements that have no value whatsoever. We can only go by fact and the evidence at hand. and apply logic and reason.

 

Occam's Razor (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html) is a good lithmus test to go by. Which is more reasonable? Mary being raped by a Roman Soldier then telling her would be husband that it was God who pregnated her in order to hide her shame or have some spiritual force supernaturally made her pregnant? Or was it all made up in the first place?