A Topic About Dialogue

[Musopticon?]

Apart from the obvious reason, I'm doing this because the strength of written and read word is ultimately what leads me to play an rpg. (after boobs, that is)

 

From what I've heard, the dialogue of K2 is from time to time brim-full of metaphors(yet nothing like, say...MP 2) and the, if I may say so, strenght of dialogue is rather good; something which isn't exactly common when it comes to Star Wars. Now, before someone flips out, I did play K1 and it's dialogue was the tried and true Bioware fore, although with a lot more action from the player's side. So, if the text is so good in K2, then why do I see so much mongreling and the odd whines about it? Isn't it a good thing with rpgs? Is there some special reason why it seems to appal the fans?

 

Discuss.

[kirottu]

I liked dialogue in Kotor 2. Kreia questioning my good choices with more or less valid reasons was specially fun.

[Musopticon?]

That's just it; something that's controversial to SW's run-of-the-mill chaos and order-system. I think it's a great thing.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Musopticon?

[kirottu]

Perhaps it was just too much for some after Star Wars movies and Kotor I.

[Musopticon?]

I'm afraid so. I undesrtand that the concept of good and evil, or a dulaistic background on everything, is one of the basic root concepts of Star Wars, so diminishing that might downgrade the end result in the eyes of the more rabid fans.

[BattleCookiee]

I think it has more to do with the rushed and bugged game Kotor2 has become to be.

 

And ofcourse the new Influence thing also made talking with/to Kreia a real pain. You either were not able to choose what you wanted to say to her, and get all/more convo options, or you speaked your guts and then get she wouldn't tell 1/2 of what she is able to tell...

 

Another possibility with Kreia especially is that she is one of the only members that has *NEW* convo options based on actions in the past. Since all the other characters have a few lines, and all you see in the begin is what you can get (with enough influence) there is no such need to initiate a new convo after you exploited all old convo's, and thus you might miss alot of her sayings if you don't do Kotor1's "speak to all after a lvl-up"

Edited November 26, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[kirottu]

And ofcourse the new Influence thing also made talking with/to Kreia a real pain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm... How?

[Kalfear]

I loved the K2 dialog personally.

 

Ive always taken the complaints about K2 with a grain of salt at the best of times though. People wanted K1 and got in a huff when it wasnt exactly the same game redone. Thats the downside of doing a sequel, no way you can ever satisfy everyone out there no matter how good a job you do.

 

Also, although they will never admit it, majority of gamers today are apart of the instant gratification crowd, more words means less action, less action means less instant gratification. Just take a look at the other mega hits out there like Halo. Linear to the degree of mind numbingly insulting, no thought required, just bang bang shoot them all and move to next stage. Yet its spoken of as some sort of holy grail of gaming.

[Bulgarian Jedi]

I too was very impressed with the dialoge and the story of the game.

I was not close related to the movies as K1, which, in my opinion, is a good thing and a big impovement. The game had more depth than the original. It also has a little further from the classical Light Side and Dark Side views into a little bit more different view. It is a very good game, even if it is buggy and a little bit[sarcasm] cut.

 

 

I played both KotOR games, for that their pincible is not "enter a room and kill everything that moves" as it was mentioned before.

[Janmanden]

I really prefer characters with personality rather than clear cut cases of good and evil. I'm not a fan of dualism either. Jolee is really a relief in K1 as the gray matter, even though he does 'look' and 'act' like a grouchy old man...somewhat predictable in that way.

[Darkside]

I liked the dialogue and the plot, it just felt like there wasn't enough choices. A lot of the things you said were practically forced, and what choices you did make had no effect in the long run. Either way the Jedi Masters die, Telos is saved, and the Exile fights Kreia on Malachor 5. I really wanted the option to spare Kriea because she wasn't evil and could have really been useful against the Sith.

 

But other than that I liked K2, and have always been a supporter of it.

[LadyCrimson]

Dialogue makes a game longer and breaks up the action, giving a game less of the 'all combat' feel. . .It (ideally) makes you feel a part of how the game develops because of choices you made, although more often than not, the choices don't really affect all that much beyond party config. and more dialogue. It helps many people feel more like they're part of a story rather than just an observor, perhaps more like one feels when reading a book.

 

That said...I'm one of those that likes choices and fun lines in games, but I'm not very big on really long dialogues that I'm forced to read in order to progress through a (visual) game. Too many long dialogue menus that pause the game remind me I'm playing a game by taking me 'outside' of the flow of the game. I'm the same way with reading books - I read books in one or two sittings most of the time, because to read 30 pages a day disrupts the flow too much & isn't immersive enough for me.

 

So I'm kind of in the middle in terms of wanting dialogue in rpg's. I want some, just not an overload.

[14884_1556103668]

Dialogue makes a game longer and breaks up the action, giving a game less of the 'all combat' feel. . .It (ideally) makes you feel a part of how the game develops because of choices you made, although more often than not, the choices don't really affect all that much beyond party config. and more dialogue. It helps many people feel more like they're part of a story rather than just an observor, perhaps more like one feels when reading a book.

 

That said...I'm one of those that likes choices and fun lines in games, but I'm not very big on really long dialogues that I'm forced to read in order to progress through a (visual) game. Too many long dialogue menus that pause the game remind me I'm playing a game by taking  me 'outside' of the flow of the game. I'm the same way with reading books - I read books in one or two sittings most of the time, because to read 30 pages a day disrupts the flow too much & isn't immersive enough for me.

 

So I'm kind of in the middle in terms of wanting dialogue in rpg's. I want some, just not an overload.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed. I played both K1 and 2, and was impressed by the dialogue, and as I am a big book lover, that suited me down to the ground, as playing the games is somewhat like having a good read...

 

I liked the dialogue alot in K2. I always felt that there wasnt quite enough choices in K1 (but then again, I really did like the influence factor of second game). I only wish that there had been a bit more dialogue for certain characters such as Bao-dur, as he was the one that did actually have history with the Exile, and so much more should have happened because of that. More should have been done with the Jedified party members, and not have to listen to 'old' dialogue threads. That said, I still like it immensely-and I think that it does help to draw you further into the game, and if you play LS, it makes you more wary of your conversation choices.

 

I do like to play games such as Halo, for a quick bit of gun action, but for the long haul, I prefer games that have a good story, and involve you more...even if that means alot of dialogue. I think that was what was missing from Morrowind... LOL <_<

[Plo-Koon]

Well, in my opinion, for an RPG, the dialogue is what makes the game. The combat sequences are really only there because it is the only way to necessitate other story options. Losing a combat is meaningless, as you simply reload from the last save. This is also why I dont understand the whole "why arent the battles tougher" concept. In the end, there is not one hard battle in any game of this genre, since it IS impossible to lose a battle. I prefer having the battles just interesting enough to make you not loathe playing them, but in the end, its all about the story, and nothing but the story. And without dialogue, there is no story. A perfect example was Final Fantasy 10 (to use a past quote about Halo, it was linear and mind numbingly dull from a GAME standpoint). But Square understood that players of the series wanted a story, and what a fabulous story they made, at least in my opinion. And, the same can certainly be said of both BioWare and Obsidians jobs on the STORY of KOTOR(save for the ending of 2 of course). My only complaint about the dialogue, is they were short-sighted on some brilliant opportunities for great dialogue, and for the game to be heralded as an "epic" story, more is needed. I loved KOTOR and KOTOR 2. Neither was epic, though. And my hope is ...one day....to FINALLY get an epic game....someday.

[Vashanti]

I love the dialogue in K2, especially the nods to the original SW movies.

 

Yeah, the Influence system did make conversations difficult at times, so I had to learn to work around that bump in the road.

 

I kind of wish they had put in more of the Romance type options, which add another layer to the conversations.

 

I don't recall there being as many instances in K2 of your party members talking back and forth to each other as there were in K1, but there were enough to keep me satisfied.

 

The ending still ruins it for me; I usually stop the current playthrough when it's time to go to Malachor.

 

I'm still trying to get my wife to finish playing K1 and K2, simply because I love the storylines and dialogue so much!

Edited November 26, 2005 by Vashanti

[germi91]

I don't think the dialogue has anything to do why l like Kotor I better than Kotor II. I mean, l really liked the dialogue, but as previously said, there are a few points:

 

-Not enough choices. Everything is sort of forced on you. Not enough choices as to how the game ends. (This has more to do with the cut content)

 

-It didn't feel as 'Star Wars' as Kotor I. There was too much 'Grey Jedi' and not enough good or evil fighting. Of course, sometimes it's nice to put a character which questions these two terms. Compare Jolee with Kreia.

 

-Influence system and the RLG were kind of annoying. The influence system makes you either win everything or lose everything. And with the RLG, many times you couldn't get items that you wanted to get.

 

-Kotor II didn't feel alive. Personally, l like stories which are really active and feels alive.

I didn't like the whole 'True Sith' or 'Force Bond' thing, but l did find it interesting to think about.

[Dark Moth]

^^^Agreed on almost all points. I think the game tried to force to many gray philosophies on you, mainly thanks to Kreia. And if you dared to disagree, you of course lost influence. My main gripe as you said was that it didn't feel like my choices really made much of a difference in the end.

[kirottu]

I really didn

[Kalfear]

I don't think the dialogue has anything to do why l like Kotor I better than Kotor II. I mean, l really liked the dialogue, but as previously said, there are a few points:

 

-Not enough choices. Everything is sort of forced on you. Not enough choices as to how the game ends. (This has more to do with the cut content)

 

-It didn't feel as 'Star Wars' as Kotor I. There was too much 'Grey Jedi' and not enough good or evil fighting. Of course, sometimes it's nice to put a character which questions these two terms. Compare Jolee with Kreia.

 

-Influence system and the RLG were kind of annoying. The influence system makes you either win everything or lose everything. And with the RLG, many times you couldn't get  items that you wanted to get.

 

-Kotor II didn't feel alive. Personally, l like stories which are really active and feels alive.

I didn't like the whole 'True Sith' or 'Force Bond' thing, but l did find it interesting to think about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While I agree K2 didnt feel as Star Wars as K1 did, K2 was more a personal story then a save the republic story. When all was said and done, the Exi;e had his redemption but none of that really had to do with Republic and wouldnt be widly known, Where as K1, Revans redemption came when he saved the republic from the sith.

 

However, I just dont understand the complaints about influence. It makes perfect sence that to get a NPC to open up to you, you have to play to their own personality rather then force them to play to yours. The influence system makes the game far more realistic then K1 or Jade Empire was in gaining the back stories.

 

I personaly found it great that depending on your group make up you could gain influence with one character and lose influence with anouther because of your choice at that specific time. Really made you think about group make up and how to handle each situation.

 

I really hope Bioware saw this and incorperates it into Mass Effects! Just a over all positive aspect to the game.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I liked the dialogue of Kotor 2, but it suffered in parts from the same problem as TV sci-fi/fantasy shows - too much exposition, too much moving the (overcomplicated?) plot along, and not enough consistent differentiation between how characters speak. The ideas expressed in the dialogue were interesting and far beyond what you'd get in most games, but there were flaws, too.

[Janmanden]

I don't think the dialogue has anything to do why l like Kotor I better than Kotor II. I mean, l really liked the dialogue, but as previously said, there are a few points:

 

(1) Not enough choices. Everything is sort of forced on you. Not enough choices as to how the game ends. (This has more to do with the cut content)

 

(2) It didn't feel as 'Star Wars' as Kotor I. There was too much 'Grey Jedi' and not enough good or evil fighting. Of course, sometimes it's nice to put a character which questions these two terms. Compare Jolee with Kreia.

 

(3) Influence system and the RLG were kind of annoying. The influence system makes you either win everything or lose everything. And with the RLG, many times you couldn't get  items that you wanted to get.

 

(4) Kotor II didn't feel alive. Personally, l like stories which are really active and feels alive.

I didn't like the whole 'True Sith' or 'Force Bond' thing, but l did find it interesting to think about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. I agree. It's ludicrous how everything is turning you DS or LS even from the very first dialogue, there are ultimately only 2 choices: LS or DS.
   
2. I disagree with that. Han Solo was very gray and wouldn't have returned unless he had a little crush on the princess afterall... Jolee Bindo old version of Han Solo...both solo in company with Wookies.
   
3. The influence system can be really destructive to gameplay and RPG if you try to please them all...and it's hard to resist that temptation...even though it's only halfdone.
   
4. It's really Planescape: Torment in Star Wars. Except you are not immortal and the annoying skull has turned into an evil annoying orb. Annah is Handmaiden, Visas is Fall from grace and Atton is Dakkon that doesnt know himself until you teach him...Kreia is a split personality playing all your previous incarnations and the old geezer too... Torment (emotion) tend to be rather depressing...
   

edit: fixed missing end list.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Janmanden

[SamuraiGaijin]

Both K1 and K2's dialog were good, but in different ways ...

- K1 - you talked to each NPC after attaining each level, drawing out the conversations throughout the game and encouraging you to adventure.

- K2 - you explored the dialog options trying to figure out how to unlock more options through influence, and occasionally lucked into influence options during the gameplay - I didn't mind the influence system, but in many cases, the conversations were over too fast.

(winner - K1)

- K1 - dialog usually unlocked side-quests - encouraging you to adventure off the default path.

- K2 - dialog usually unlocked special abilities for you or your NPC (or both) - encouraging you to complete each dialog tree as fast as possible.

(winner - draw)

- K1 - HK-47 back story

- K2 - HK-47 "how to kill jedi", "Revan's companions were a bunch of whiners", "I feel like a circuit has been flipped ... "

(winner - K2)

- K1 - random NPC interaction moments were typically great moments of levity (Bastila/Mission)

- K2 - random NPC interaction moments were typically boring (Bao-Dur upgrading everything, for example) with occaisional gems (HK to G0-T0 "... fat one ...")

(winner - K1)

 

I could go on, but I think I'll leave it at 2-1 for K1 ... don't get me wrong I enjoy K2 a great deal, but think the dialog in K1 was better integrated into the game as a whole.

[kalimeeri]

- K1 - random NPC interaction moments were typically great moments of levity (Bastila/Mission)

 

This is what I really missed in K2--the need to tell Mission just to SHUT UP already. The feeling that Canderous's mouth was going to get us all hung on Dantooine. The party members interacted with NPC's and each other in K1; they were individuals and they were present and accounted for. But I'd have to give K2 the nod for deeper and more gradual character development--for the main characters, Exile and Kreia.

 

Aside from that, it's not fair to compare the two games, as tone and focus are different. K2 is deep and introspective, as opposed to K1's irrepressible levity. They're different types of stories--character study vs. action-driven. Taken as two parts of a trilogy, K2 needed to fill in some blanks; it needed to be the calm before the storm, building up to the end of the story. And all the while it had to be interesting on its own. That's a tall order, and if it hadn't been rushed, it would have succeeded very well. Yes, it had its flaws, but it did a lot of things right, too.

 

Compare both of the Kotor games to most others, and they shine. In games (just like in books and in movies) it's not enough to have characters talk, somebody has to know how to write dialogue that makes them come to life. I'm currently playing Dungeon Seige 2, which at least recognized its party members ... they tried, I guess. The party members pipe up or argue on occasion--too bad they don't say anything interesting or useful. Pretty trite, actually.

 

Dialogue and story was Black Isle's recipe for success. Combat does need to be present, but it gets you nowhere but another cleared square on the map. There's a fine balance between action and exposition; sometimes you just need to go kill something while you think about what's been said. But combat in and of itself isn't all that interesting, hardly even memorable after the game is over. It's characters you care about--love them or hate them--that stick with you.