Deus Ex

[Calax]

I not wrong in this case because hell kitty is using an exclusive definition to make a fallacious conclusion.

 

    * All dogs are mammals.

    * No cats are dogs.

    * Therefore, no cats are mammals.

 

This is called an Aristotelian illicit major logical fallacy.

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Spot on, spot on.

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Ark do you just appear and give the yesman comments?

[Hell Kitty]

As for Kitty, how do you tranquilize Howard without shooting him with something?

 

My comment about tranquilizing Howard Strong was in reply to the comment that you had to kill 3 people, which is wrong, as you only have to render unconcious at least one of them.

 

Of course, whether or not there is any shooting in Deus Ex was never the issue, rather it's that the core gameplay component is shooting.

 

When the developer of the game classifies it as such, in addition to 99.9% of the gaming media, community, and so forth, I'm willing to take their opinion on it rather than someone else's anal retentiveness over semantics for no other reason than trying to be obtuse.

 

Since when do most people (outside of this thread) refer to Deus Ex as a shooter? Eidos classifies Deus Ex as an RPG/Action. Mobygames lists it as an Action/Adventure/Role-Playing(RPG). Gamespot lists it as Sci-Fi Action Adventure.

 

Eidos lists the Thief games as Adventure. Mobygames lists Thief 1 & 2 as Action, and Thief Gold as Action/Strategy. My Thief 1 & 2 box call them First-Person Sneakers, my Thief 3 box calls it Stealth/Action. Gamespot lists Thief 1 as Action, Thief 2 as Sci-Fi Action Adventure and Thief 3 as Fantasy Action Adventure.

 

Warren spector himself refers to it, in his Gamasutra Post-Mortem (registration required) as a genre-busting game -- part immersive simulation, part role-playing game, part first-person shooter, part adventure game.

 

It's an immersive simulation game in that you are made to feel you're actually in the game world with as little as possible getting in the way of the experience of "being there." Ideally, nothing reminds you that you're just playing a game -- not interface, not your character's back-story or capabilities, not game systems, nothing. It's all about how you interact with a relatively complex environment in ways that you find interesting (rather than in ways the developers think are interesting), and in ways that move you closer to accomplishing your goals (not the developers' goals).

 

It's a role-playing game in that you play a role and make character development choices that ensure that you end up with a unique alter ego. You make your way through a variety of minute-to-minute gameplay experiences (which add up to a story) in a manner that grows naturally out of the unique aspects of your character. Every game system is designed to differentiate one player-character from another, and to allow players to make decisions that reflect their own biases and express character differences in obvious ways in the game world.

 

It's a first-person shooter because the action unfolds in real time, seen through the virtual eyes of your alter ego in the game world. Your reflexes and skill play an important part in determining your success in combat. However, unlike the typical FPS, Deus Ex doesn't force you to shoot every virtual thing that moves. Also unlike the average FPS, in which gameplay is limited to pulling a virtual trigger, finding blue keys to open blue doors and jumping to reach seemingly inaccessible locations, Deus Ex offers players a wide range of gameplay options.

 

And finally, Deus Ex is like adventure games in that it's story-driven, linear in narrative structure, and involves character interaction and item accumulation to advance the plot. However, unlike most adventure games (in which you spend the bulk of your time solving clever puzzles in a search for the next static, but very pretty, screen), Deus Ex asks players to determine how they will solve game problems and forces them to deal with the consequences of their choices.

 

Deus Ex was designed from the start to combine elements of all of these genres. But more important than any genre classification, the game was conceived with the idea that we'd accept players as our collaborators, that we'd put power back in their hands, ask them to make choices, and let them deal with the consequences of those choices. It was designed, from the start, as a game about player expression, not about how clever we were as designers, programmers, artists, or storytellers.

 

To say that it isn't a shooter does not mean it contains no shooter elements, it simply means that the shooter elements are only one part of a greater whole, as opposed to the primary component.

Edited November 10, 2005 by Hell Kitty

[Calax]

oye... your making me want to dig up the post where I posted the ENTIRE postmortem.

[Mojo]

I not wrong in this case because hell kitty is using an exclusive definition to make a fallacious conclusion.

 

    * All dogs are mammals.

    * No cats are dogs.

    * Therefore, no cats are mammals.

 

This is called an Aristotelian illicit major logical fallacy.

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Spot on, spot on.

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Ark do you just appear and give the yesman comments?

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And we know how everyone hates a yesman

[Darque]

And Darque why did you use the all purpose bbq tool? why not use the anti bot demolisher tool?

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I... umm.. love watching them run around screaming when they're on fire.

 

 

:ph34r:

[Calax]

I just hit em with a tranq to the head and keep moving.

[Darque]

but.. but.. then they don't do that really cool fire dance

[Calax]

well there are fire darts....

 

I also like turning them into pieces with 20mm HE ammo from my aussalt rife... besides who needs to dance? I do the single handed dance but that's private.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I have seen an

[alanschu]

Fortunately terms like "hybrid" are ambiguous and you can pick and choose exactly how it's a hybrid :D

[Darque]

I want a chocobo/veloceraptor hybrid

[alanschu]

Cunning smart, with surfer music following it around? (and golden??)

[Darque]

I want a flying one can't remember what color that is.

 

And I love the chocobo theme

 

Oh, and on topic.

 

I was disappointed Deus Ex didn't have chocobos "

[alanschu]

Definitely limits it to a 9.9/10

[Darque]

:D

[BattleCookiee]

Morrowing: Negatory here, I said that a kill was player-dependant (and you have to aim and such). In MW it is totally Skill Dependant...

Why do you agree with the same assessment of Vampire and not of Morrowind when both need the player to aim and the character to hit? The player *has* to aim at his targets in both games, then expect the character to hit based on its own skill set.

...

I'm glad you asked.

 

I have seen an

Edited November 10, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[Meshugger]

I want a flying one can't remember what color that is.

 

And I love the chocobo theme

 

Oh, and on topic.

 

I was disappointed Deus Ex didn't have chocobos  "

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*whistling* "

[Spider]

Anyway; the answer to Role-player:

In MW the hit etc. depends on skill, while with Vampire it is like DX. A reticle getting smaller, and thus requiring player skill, not PC skill.

 

Just to clarify since I really haven't played Morrowind that much:

 

Does your skill in marksmanship (or whatever it's called) decide whether or not you actually hit in Morrowind? I was under the impression that if you physically connected you hit (thus the manual dodge from sword swings). But like I said I haven't played it that much.

[Musopticon?]

For the record, in Vampire your shooting skill does matter when wether you hit enemies or not is counted.

[Walsingham]

The game is an acceptabke shooter. Has a variety of tactics for replay. But most importantly it has a really cool storyline, with plenty of depth. And if you like a bit of cheap philosophy in bite sizes you'll be in heaven. I have bought several copies over the years.

[Darque]

I want a flying one can't remember what color that is.

 

And I love the chocobo theme

 

Oh, and on topic.

 

I was disappointed Deus Ex didn't have chocobos  "

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*whistling* "

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Awesome :D Thanks :D

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Anyway; the answer to Role-player:

In MW the hit etc. depends on skill, while with Vampire it is like DX. A reticle getting smaller, and thus requiring player skill, not PC skill.

 

The reticule is just a representation of the character's skill; you'll note it tightens faster according to the character's skill in any given weapon you are using and need to aim. But it's really nothing else than that. All three games work under the same principle: the players need to use their skill (player skill) for any movement and actions associated with targetting and shooting at an enemy, and all the outcome of the actual hits are decided by rolls based on the character's attributes (PC skill); the absence of a reticule doesn't really change that for Morrowind.

[metadigital]

I have seen an

[Calax]

Masup? wheres that old song you found with the orchestra doing the Theme?

[metadigital]

Anyway; the answer to Role-player:

In MW the hit etc. depends on skill, while with Vampire it is like DX. A reticle getting smaller, and thus requiring player skill, not PC skill.

 

The reticule is just a representation of the character's skill; you'll note it tightens faster according to the character's skill in any given weapon you are using and need to aim. But it's really nothing else than that. All three games work under the same principle: the players need to use their skill (player skill) for any movement and actions associated with targetting and shooting at an enemy, and all the outcome of the actual hits are decided by rolls based on the character's attributes (PC skill); the absence of a reticule doesn't really change that for Morrowind.

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Ah, but the fact that the reticle exists means that the game is a hybrid of a shooter, since there isn't much use for graticules on a m