Why twitch gamers suck

[Plano Skywalker]

Sleep is a good spell, but it doesn't work against many monsters and when it does work still requires a deathblow to finsih the job.

 

The fact is that fighters and clerics wear armor, have more hitpoints, and deal more damage over time at lower levels.

 

All low level characters are easy to kill - but mages take longer to develop the kind of resources and toughness that allows them to relax a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

truely, it is hard to play a true *mage* as defined by 2E or even 3rd E D&D at 1st level. true, you can specialize and get that extra spell, but then you are not really a *mage* in the proper sense of the term.

 

one of main problems in the old days of P&P D&D is that you need clerics at low levels and mages at high levels but there was not alot in between.

 

Late 2E (namely Forgotten Realms) gave us the Specialty Priest which filled the gap somewhat.

 

3E gave us the Sorcerer which is really what was needed. The befuddled old wizard is an important part of a fantasy landscape but not someone who would be adventuring very much.

[mkreku]

Psst... PoR was 1st edition.

Aaiieeh! I am old.

[Volourn]

"Volourn I understand what you are saying and agree your view has merit but I was thinking of the P&P adventures I have played where my low level mage always had a lower kill total than the low level fighters and clerics in the party."

 

It's not always aboutd etah count. Afterall, under normal circumstance, a group of goblins (let's say 6- would be deadly for a group of 1st level adventurers. That is until a 1st level mage casts sleep and over half (if not all) the goblins are asleep. Sure, the warriors might get 'the kill'; but it is the wizard who struck the real death blow. If that's not useful; no one knows what is.

 

And, why mem magic missle? At 1st level, it is the worst spell ever. There are better offensive spell chocies at that time. Armour is a good chocie and would give your mage a decent ac. Why use magic missle when a sling is almost as good (same dmaage but you actually have to hit). Tsk, tsk.

 

It's not like I'm saying the mage is unbeatbale at 1st level; but he is far from 'weak' or useless' unless all you look at is hit points. But, if you do that, he's weak at every level.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Volourn

[Colrom]

I do "magic missile" because it always works against any monster.

 

The idea of a guaranteed hit is no small thing at first level. It can make all the difference.

 

I agree that "sleep" is good against goblins and such, though.

Edited September 29, 2005 by Colrom

[Weiser_Cain]

Unless they have magic resistence and or good reflex saves.

[Dhruin]

And, why mem magic missle? At 1st level, it is the worst spell ever. There are better offensive spell chocies at that time. Armour is a good chocie and would give your mage a decent ac. Why use magic missle when a sling is almost as good (same dmaage but you actually have to hit). Tsk, tsk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm. Volourn on one hand - "worst spell ever".

 

...or D&D core rules contributor Monte Cook on the other:

 

Everyone knows that magic missiles are better than every other 1st-level attack spell. They're better than most 2nd level spells.

 

You're always good for a laugh, Volourn.

[Volourn]

We're talking for a level wizard. Anyone who thinks magic missle is the top 1st level spell for a wizard st level is on crack. 1d4+1 damage isn't even best purely dmaging spell a wizard has at that level. Mr. cooke is probably referring to magic missle used by wizards at higher than level 1 when the spell gets stornger and does become the best offensive spell. I'm talking about a 1st level wizard.

 

Please don't troll when you don't know what you are talking about.

 

Game over.

 

What's really funny is when one wasting time talking about those who think they know D&D when they don't.

 

(w00t)

 

1d4 damage spell is the best 1st level spell a 1st level wizard cna have? Hahaha. i'm sure Mr. Cook would be embarassed you to completely misread and twist his words up like that.

 

R00fles!

[Dhruin]

*shrug* You can add your spin however you like. As for trolling, *I* know -- and many will agree -- the quick strike capability of MM is often invaluable, including 1st level.

[mkreku]

I just remember (from my poor Pool of Radiance again) that whenever I fought anything but goblins or humans, the sleep spell was rendered useless. As melee was totally out of the question and my puny mages had to stay in the back, magic missile seemed like a good choice for at least dealing some damage. Does anyone remember that small gang of trolls you met in the maze in the slums of New Phlan..? Dead hard fight, as trolls are difficult to melee to death (they auto-regenerate hitpoints), which is when magic missiles were pretty damn useful.

[213374U]

And how is admitting that my mages die to rats bragging? That's as dumb as saying "You keep bragging about your low intelligence by writing posts like this".

Owned.

[Daroowise]

More than anything its going to depend on the situation.

 

L1 mage vs goblin (1HD -1, ave 3-4 hp), I've got a maginal chance of just nuking him with my magic missile.

 

The warrior still has to roll 14 or better to even hit.

 

Pit the mage vs kobold and you've got an ever greater chance the mage will nuke him (they're 1/2 HD).

 

There is no save vs magic missile and its instantaneous casting with a range of 70 yards minimum, which is good room for retreat in case you don't get the job done. Granted, ranger's could probably be that accurate with a bow, but you've still got to roll to hits... 2e anyway.

Edited September 29, 2005 by Daroowise

[Volourn]

Darowisee, you could just use sleep against the lone goblin. Magic missle is 1d4+1 damage at first level guarnateeing you 2 damage minimum. A sleep spell automatically puts kobolds or goblins asleep allowing you to kill them immediately no risk to you risk to yourself.

 

 

"Dead hard fight, as trolls are difficult to melee to death (they auto-regenerate hitpoints), which is when magic missiles were pretty damn useful."

 

You don't fight trolls at 1st level, and trolls are immune to sleep so of course you would use magic missle against trolls as opposed to sleep, silly goose. Trolls had tens of hit points anyways so even a magic missle at 5th level (3d4+3_ would not kill them. On top of that, you likely also had fireball and the like.

 

Remember folks, we are talking about the 1st level mage; not a higher level mage using 1st level spells. Afterall, sleep becomes absolutely useless at higher levels.

 

Come on, people. THINK.

 

 

"the quick strike capability of MM is often invaluable, including 1st level."

 

90% of 1st level spells had a casting speed of 1. They were all quick striking. Again, there is numeircal proof that there were damaging spells more deadly than magic missle at 1st level.

[mkreku]

Seriously, in Pool of Radiance you could very well run into that gang of trolls at level 1. Which is why it was a dead hard fight. Also, I remember getting those damn trolls unconscious, but not being able to finish them off with melee, which is when the magic missile came in so handy. Because it never misses it was perfect to use for the killing stroke, before the damn trolls regenerated enough to get back up on their feet again.

[Judge Hades]

More than anything its going to depend on the situation.

 

L1 mage vs goblin (1HD -1, ave 3-4 hp), I've got a maginal chance of just nuking him with my magic missile.

 

The warrior still has to roll 14 or better to even hit.

 

Pit the mage vs kobold and you've got an ever greater chance the mage will nuke him (they're 1/2 HD).

 

There is no save vs magic missile and its instantaneous casting with a range of 70 yards minimum, which is good room for retreat in case you don't get the job done.  Granted, ranger's could probably be that accurate with a bow, but you've still got to roll to hits... 2e anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem here is that you are sending a classed person against an unclassed. In 3.5e even monsters have classes. The fabvored class of the goblin is rogue and the average goblin elite (one that you might find scouting an area or protecting the village) will often have at least one level of rogue. Goblin chieftains and higher level elites are often fighter/rogues.

 

Kobolds favored class is Sorcerer. So a 1st level wizard facing a first level sorcerer would be an even match. Basically who ever makes inititiative will often win the fight. Kobolds often multiclass as Sorcerer/Rogues.

 

Most will have the same npc class levels, such as expert, warrior, or adept, but have class levels all the same.

[Child of Flame]

What class is a wolf?

[Volourn]

A wolf's class is 'animal'.

[Child of Flame]

But what about a particularly rougish wolf?

[Volourn]

Improbable. It would have to be intelligent (not that wolves are dumb; but not they're not intelligent the way we see it) to t ake a different class.

[Guest Fishboot]

I just remember (from my poor Pool of Radiance again) that whenever I fought anything but goblins or humans, the sleep spell was rendered useless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Back in the days of 1E DMs had the decency to make your first adventure about killing goblins and kolbolds, like God intended. Now it's rat this and rat that...

[Daroowise]

The problem here is that you are sending a classed person against an unclassed.  In 3.5e even monsters have classes.  The fabvored class of the goblin is rogue and the average goblin elite (one that you might find scouting an area or protecting the village) will often have at least one level of rogue.  Goblin chieftains and higher level elites are often fighter/rogues.

 

Kobolds favored class is Sorcerer.  So a 1st level wizard facing a first level sorcerer would be an even match.  Basically who ever makes inititiative will often win the fight.  Kobolds often multiclass as Sorcerer/Rogues.

 

Most will have the same npc class levels, such as expert, warrior, or adept, but have class levels all the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Did I mention how I loathe 3e and up. Monsters shouldn't get classes unless they're unique or boss-esque monsters. I could see a cheiftan or a shaman having a class but a general run to the mill standard fodder for my party goblin is just that.

 

I say this because... simply that they're scouting doesn't mean they actively train in observation and wilderness techniques? Granted, they're not exactly brutishly dumb but they have no rogue societal standard by which to train. Even as scout, they don't make attempt to hone in their skill or readily train, rather they're more likely just the ones who pulled rotation to look for food/fodder/loot/etc.

 

According to 2e societal rundown, they're really just hunter/gatherers with a unique standard pecking order and lots of in-fighting for dominance. If nothing else, I'd almost say they classify as purely as a fighter of lesser rank.

 

But I'm fully willing to admit being skewed in my perception of the lesser races if that be the case. Somehow I just have a hard time wrapping my head around a society of goblins/gremlins/orcs/kobolds/trolls/etc actively persuing anything other than their own survial and bashing stuff with a rather good deal of voracity.

 

 

As for the rats thing... I've no idea why in hell that cropped up so popularly. I mean really, what's wrong with some old fashion goblin whackage. Hell, even lame human bandits make for a better kill than wasting time on rats.

Edited September 30, 2005 by Daroowise

[Weiser_Cain]

But what about a particularly rougish wolf?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You get two hit die for being a wolf, find a druid to cast awaken on you and take character levels.

[Drakron]

Did I mention how I loathe 3e and up.  Monsters shouldn't get classes unless they're unique or boss-esque monsters.  <snip>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem is that in previous as we leveled up the world started to run out of creatures to present a challange, there was no such thing as a "level 4 orc" unless we assign then classes and were in 3rd ed by doing so.

 

Yes, there was the alternative of raising its Hit Dice but that required decontruction of the creature into basic stats, not a easy task.

 

3rd ed "corrected" the issue by making pretty much everything having a basis set of stats and allowed DMs to scale the creatures in power as needed to challange the player, its far better system that the whole "wild guessing" of creatures (since we know what classes and stats is the monsters in MM are using in 3rd ed) or the "we run out of goblins, its orcs turn now".