Why twitch gamers suck

[Guest Fishboot]

I think some of the root of the confusion in the term "RPG" goes back to D&D, which, while being the prototypical RPG, was originally intended to be a persistant world, miniatures combat game. If you've ever read any of the stories where Gygax talks about the games he ran they were like 15 player herd dungeon crawls that knew darn well they were games the same way Monopoly is a game. They bring to mind World of Warcraft more than Planescape: Torment. Advanced D&D was originally supposed to be a unified rulebook to eliminate "house rules" from the game, so that characters could be portable across DMs. These days, trying to transfer a P&P character across campaigns will get you accused of munchkinism in a hurry, and people think that a GM without a three-ring binder full of house rules and background is a lazy bum.

 

So, anyway, I think the 'tactical combat/pretending to be someone/authoring a character/being part of a narrative' conflicts that comes up in these forums go all the way down to the DNA of RPGs.

[metadigital]

How was it not be considered a traditional CRPG.

 

Turn base combat, rules system that played like PnP, isometric view, and a good story.  What wasn't traditional about it?

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Pretty much none of those is a requirement for the CRPG genre, much less traditional elements. If you go with tradition you'll find nearly the opposite of what you pine for in some of the first CRPGs out there. Back then turnbased shared the same space as realtime and phasebased; isometric, firstperson and 'bird's eye view' were all contemporary; and a "good story" often translated into subtle variations of Doom's "kill thing, find key, kill big thingie, you win".

 

Also, much as I like turnbased it isn't required for a CRPG. You only need a combat system that, like turnbased, allows a distinct enough separation between character and gamer; otherwise we enter the usual situation of not playing a character but instead playing myself (ye olde character skill vs. player reflex). Turnbased, phasebased and some implementations of realtime manage that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, the olde "kill thing, find key, kill big thingie, you win" strategy ... they don't make them like that, anymore!

[Calax]

I think some of the root of the confusion in the term "RPG" goes back to D&D, which, while being the prototypical RPG, was originally intended to be a persistant world, miniatures combat game. If you've ever read any of the stories where Gygax talks about the games he ran they were like 15 player herd dungeon crawls that knew darn well they were games the same way Monopoly is a game. They bring to mind World of Warcraft more than Planescape: Torment. Advanced D&D was originally supposed to be a unified rulebook to eliminate "house rules" from the game, so that characters could be portable across DMs. These days, trying to transfer a P&P character across campaigns will get you accused of munchkinism in a hurry, and people think that a GM without a three-ring binder full of house rules and background is a lazy bum.

 

So, anyway, I think the tactical combat/pretending to be someone/authoring a character/being part of a narrative conflicts that comes up in these forums go all the way down to the DNA of RPGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

also the fact that everybody has differing ways of implementing the same rule changes things. One person may say that your archery skill is on par with the common soldier while another says its' good enough to shoot the apple off a giants head from a continent away.

 

Another thing is that some games have persistant worlds with metaplots and such, like WOD. only problem is that if you were to send a Vampire character up against a mage or a Warewolf the vampire would be dust before you could say anything. Hunters are just horrible and Demons didn't exactly get far enough off the ground to try anything in another setting.

[Rhomal]

To address both in one post:

 

JE is a typical console fighting game. Thats why I dont see it as anything more then that. I will admit I never played it (nor do I have any interest in it) but from reading the reviews I dont see anything that makes it more that what it is. I think its a well done fighting game granted.

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Jade Empire runs at 30 fps, isn't very responsive, uses vague collision, and has a pretty shallow input and attack priority system. Battle Raper II probably will be a better fighting game than Jade Empire was. JE's fighting system doesn't detract from its qualities as an RPG, but comparing it to what I would consider action games (God of War, Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry) is slightly questionable and comparing it to fighting games (Soul Calibur II, Tekken 5, Dead or Alive) is very questionable.

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Fair enough. I am not disputing what you state about it, and from the sounds if you you are much more aware of the specifics then I am. I have no issue admiting I am wrong or dont know.

 

Again, I just posted my comments on the impression I got from the reviews I read. Either way since its a console game,a dn I dont play such, this is the main reason why I didnt bring it up.

[Foamhead]

The reason for the decline in quality crpgs and rpg's in general is simply that most of them suck. Every one is about elves and trolls with plus 10000 swords and magic wands of ass reaming.

 

With this horriffic lack of originality and innovation I am suprised it took as long as it did for the market to disappear. I am sick of elves and trolls and welcome anything different, such as Fallout or Knights of the Old Republic.

 

I certainly don't blame "twitch gamers", because when I last checked it was not a crime to like shoot em' ups. Most people don't like role playing games and as long as we are a niche audience there won't be much out there and there especially won't be much risk taking.

 

On a side note, I really don't understand why CRPG fans seem to think that turn based combat is so infinately superior to real time. God forbid a game doesn't play like an old school Gold Box game or Fallout!

[Dhruin]

We currently have a poll on preferred RPG settings and with around 400 responses, fantasy holds ~70% first preference. Post-apoc and cyberpunk hold ~10% each and sci-fi a poor 6.5%. It's not definitive but I think it is indicative: players like fantasy settings (even when they complain about it) -- I would suspect casual players are even less likely to embrace other settings.

 

Innovation is harder...the overall level of quality and polish is much more important than innovation itself. There probably isn't a better example of World of Warcraft - it's simply a repetition of the EQ model but highly polished.

 

As for turn-based - some CRPG players like it and some don't. Why is it a surprise that a genre historically rooted in PnP and wargaming (turn-based) would have a degree of interest in TB combat? Anyway, you should be pleased with the current state of affairs -- there aren't any TB CRPGs these days; they're all action based.

[Spider]

We currently have a poll on preferred RPG settings and with around 400 responses, fantasy holds ~70% first preference.  Post-apoc and cyberpunk hold ~10% each and sci-fi a poor 6.5%.  It's not definitive but I think it is indicative:  players like fantasy settings (even when they complain about it) -- I would suspect casual players are even less likely to embrace other settings.

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This categorization is vastly unfair though. Both post-acop and cyberpunk are sci-fi settings. There are many variations in Fantasy as well (for instance, Star Wars is more a Fantasy setting than a Sci Fi one), so keeping that category together while splitting up sci-fi will produce somewhat skewed results. A better way of looking at it is that sci-fi holds 27% to the 70% of fantasy.

[GhostofAnakin]

We currently have a poll on preferred RPG settings and with around 400 responses, fantasy holds ~70% first preference.  Post-apoc and cyberpunk hold ~10% each and sci-fi a poor 6.5%.  It's not definitive but I think it is indicative:  players like fantasy settings (even when they complain about it) -- I would suspect casual players are even less likely to embrace other settings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wonder if this is the DnD influence talking. People have grown up accustomed to the Fantasy setting and therefore only those who are "daring" (couldn't think of a better word) enough to try new things actually give other settings a chance.

[Judge Hades]

As for DnD I think it has become overrated. I think there are way too many DnD games out, and none of them are of the quality of Baldur's Gate 1 or 2. I am still questioning the worth of NWN 2. NWN graphics are good enough, has a huge following, strong technical support, and new material is still being made. Why do we need a sequel?

[GhostofAnakin]

As for DnD I think it has become overrated.  I think there are way too many DnD games out, and none of them are of the quality of Baldur's Gate 1 or 2.  I am still questioning the worth of NWN 2.  NWN graphics are good enough, has a huge following, strong technical support, and new material is still being made.  Why do we need a sequel?

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New single player campaign? Same reason why BG2 and FO2 and IWD2 were made.

[Judge Hades]

NWN focus was never the single player campaign. The focus has always been the MP content.

[Foamhead]

We currently have a poll on preferred RPG settings and with around 400 responses, fantasy holds ~70% first preference.  Post-apoc and cyberpunk hold ~10% each and sci-fi a poor 6.5%.  It's not definitive but I think it is indicative:  players like fantasy settings (even when they complain about it) -- I would suspect casual players are even less likely to embrace other settings.

 

Innovation is harder...the overall level of quality and polish is much more important than innovation itself.  There probably isn't a better example of World of Warcraft - it's simply a repetition of the EQ model but highly polished.

 

As for turn-based - some CRPG players like it and some don't.  Why is it a surprise that a genre historically rooted in PnP and wargaming (turn-based) would have a degree of interest in TB combat?  Anyway, you should be pleased with the current state of affairs -- there aren't any TB CRPGs these days; they're all action based.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

World of Warcraft and Everquest are hardly examples of rpgs. Why people pay twenty bucks a month to use a glorified chat room and double click on rats all day is beyond me.

 

I don't have anything against turn based...I like both as long as they are done well. I was only questioning why all the PC only snobs act like it is superior. People have just as much right to enjoy twitch games as much as we have the right to like other genres. I don't see them as "ruining things"...they tend to not like rpgs and that if fine, some like vanilla, some like rocky road.

[Guest Fishboot]

As for turn-based - some CRPG players like it and some don't.  Why is it a surprise that a genre historically rooted in PnP and wargaming (turn-based) would have a degree of interest in TB combat?  Anyway, you should be pleased with the current state of affairs -- there aren't any TB CRPGs these days; they're all action based.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One of my problems with turn-based RPGs is that they're incredibly hard to balance. Both KotOR and KotOR2, the most recent quasi-TB RPGs, had maybe 5 battles that you couldn't sleepwalk through on the hardest difficulty level with a halfheartedly powergamed character. Even Fallout had a lot of balance problems once you were past the opening stages of the games ( the instant reload-forcing armor penetrating crits aside), as did Arcanum, and the Gold Box games, etc. Making turn-based battles challenging but not impossible in a system where you can have a freely designed character takes an extreme amount of polish work and in the end the most interesting fights resemble puzzle gameplay rather than something immersive (as in Baldur's Gate and IWD, with all the breaching, dispelling and herding). On the other hand action gameplay tends to find its own balance for various reasons.

[Astatine]

NWN focus was never the single player campaign.  The focus has always been the MP content.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But we're going to get a good long exciting single-player campaign in it! Which we didn't get first time round.

 

And the NWN graphics engine is really needing that lick of paint. I always thought NWN looked clunky, much worse in a way than the 2D games that preceded it. The graphics are functional maybe, but they're Polygonisation City and don't bring the world to life in the way the Infinity Engine's did. (Though I'm still impressed at the way when characters swordfight they, well, actually swordfight, at least after a fashion... )

 

I still haven't found any third party NWN content I enjoyed at all. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places... (Multiplayer, yuck )

[Judge Hades]

But we're going to get a good long exciting single-player campaign in it!  Which we didn't get first time round.

 

So they say, but I have yet seen any proof of that so I will remain skeptical. Also I doubt we will get a long campaign. BG 2 is what I consider long. BG 1 and PS:T is what I consider average. Jade Empire and KotOR 1-2 is what I consider short. I am expecting a short game.

 

And the NWN graphics engine is really needing that lick of paint.  I always thought NWN looked clunky, much worse in a way than the 2D games that preceded it.  The graphics are functional maybe, but they're Polygonisation City and don't bring the world to life in the way the Infinity Engine's did.  (Though I'm still impressed at the way when characters swordfight they, well, actually swordfight, at least after a fashion... )

 

Is it worth it putting down another $50 for a another mediocre DnD game? I think not. Dungeons and Dragons has lost its flavor, its fun factor since BG 2-ToB. Maybe it is because we have already seen the height of DnD gaming with PS:T and the BG series or maybe it is because those who are doing the current DnD games just can't cut it to make a DnD game of that caliber any more either due to lack of creative talent or market pressures.

 

I still haven't found any third party NWN content I enjoyed at all.  Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places...  (Multiplayer, yuck )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are some I have enjoyed but keep in mind they are still third party mods and no way can they be on par of professionally backed games. The best so far is Tortured Hearts, but then Volourn's mod has yet been officially released.

[Volourn]

Come on, Hades. You say D&D game ar eoverrated, and say what's the point of NWN2 yet you'll be one of the first in line to buy NWN2.

 

As for this talk about too much fantasy RPGs; to those whining I say tough. People love fantasy games, and therefore those games are made; those games are made so people have to buy them. It's a cyclical nature.

 

If you don't like fantasy or are sick of them then don't buy them. Of course, like Hades those crying will be first in line to buy the next fantasy RPG released.

 

And, NWN2 should have a solid OC around 40-60 hours much like NWN1. It surely can't be much worse than KOTOR2. Despite the fact that the intro Obsidian is planning is underhwelming to me; the rest of their plans for the game sound promising except for a few silly things like their total destruction of familiars.

 

Say hello to Pocket Familiars.

 

HAHA!

[Astatine]

But we're going to get a good long exciting single-player campaign in it!  Which we didn't get first time round.

 

So they say, but I have yet seen any proof of that so I will remain skeptical. Also I doubt we will get a long campaign. BG 2 is what I consider long. BG 1 and PS:T is what I consider average. Jade Empire and KotOR 1-2 is what I consider short. I am expecting a short game.

 

The NWN campaign was pretty long. At least BG sized. I think. Felt like that anyway. I never finished it...

 

And the NWN graphics engine is really needing that lick of paint.  I always thought NWN looked clunky, much worse in a way than the 2D games that preceded it.  The graphics are functional maybe, but they're Polygonisation City and don't bring the world to life in the way the Infinity Engine's did.  (Though I'm still impressed at the way when characters swordfight they, well, actually swordfight, at least after a fashion... )

 

Is it worth it putting down another $50 for a another mediocre DnD game? I think not. Dungeons and Dragons has lost its flavor, its fun factor since BG 2-ToB. Maybe it is because we have already seen the height of DnD gaming with PS:T and the BG series or maybe it is because those who are doing the current DnD games just can't cut it to make a DnD game of that caliber any more either due to lack of creative talent or market pressures.

 

I'd certainly think twice before shelling out for a "Greyhawk: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" or something But the Obsidian team are responsible for some of the best D&D game material we've had in the past and they say they're really focusing on making a good Official Campaign, so I, the eternal optimist, will believe they can still do it and blithely put my $50 (or rather, my

[GhostofAnakin]

I still haven't found any third party NWN content I enjoyed at all.  Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places...  (Multiplayer, yuck )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are some I have enjoyed but keep in mind they are still third party mods and no way can they be on par of professionally backed games. The best so far is Tortured Hearts, but then Volourn's mod has yet been officially released.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Paladin Trilogy.

[Volourn]

Dungeon Adventures 1-3 are a series of very fun, well made combat focused PWs as well. Nowadays, when I'm not working on my mod or spamming the 'net; my computer time is spent there.

[Judge Hades]

Come on, Hades. You say D&D game ar eoverrated, and say what's the point of NWN2 yet you'll be one of the first in line to buy NWN2.

 

And how will I play it? I don't own a computer any more and i doubt my roommate would want me to clutter his computer with my games.

 

As for this talk about too much fantasy RPGs; to those whining I say tough. People love fantasy games, and therefore those games are made; those games are made so people have to buy them. It's a cyclical nature.

 

If you don't like fantasy or are sick of them then don't buy them. Of course, like Hades those crying will be first in line to buy the next fantasy RPG released.

 

Only if it is on a platform I own and so far I don't see a decent DnD title coming for the X Box or the X Box 360.

 

And, NWN2 should have a solid OC around 40-60 hours much like NWN1. It surely can't be much worse than KOTOR2. Despite the fact that the intro Obsidian is planning is underhwelming to me; the rest of their plans for the game sound promising except for a few silly things like their total destruction of familiars.

 

Say hello to Pocket Familiars.

 

HAHA!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Haven't heard much about NWN 2 and what they are planning since the boards got moved to Bioware. Pocket Familiars?

[Volourn]

"And how will I play it? I don't own a computer any more and i doubt my roommate would want me to clutter his computer with my games."

 

I doubt he'd mind; but I don't know him so meh. Still, you cna always get a computer again.

 

 

"Pocket Familiars?"

 

Things aren't crystal clear; but supposedly familiars can't be used in combat. ie. They're as useful (useless) as BG2 and worse yet TOEE familairs were.

 

People may whine about how 'overpowered' NWN1 familiars were; but at least in that game that had a use instea dof playing tidlywinks with. LOL

[Astatine]

And, NWN2 should have a solid OC around 40-60 hours much like NWN1. It surely can't be much worse than KOTOR2. Despite the fact that the intro Obsidian is planning is underhwelming to me; the rest of their plans for the game sound promising except for a few silly things like their total destruction of familiars.

 

Say hello to Pocket Familiars.

 

HAHA!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Haven't heard much about NWN 2 and what they are planning since the boards got moved to Bioware. Pocket Familiars?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They appear to have thrown away the gratuitous tanks wizards and sorcerers got in NWN as their familiars and replaced them with familiars more in the spirit of the pen-and-paper game...

 

Remains to be seen how the (already somewhat low) viability of those classes at low levels is affected...

 

Never liked familiars at all myself. In pen-and-paper I tend to ditch them entirely and give wizards and sorcerers other titbits instead...

[Judge Hades]

I am not getting another computer. Just not cost effective. If you get a bad game on the computer you are stuck with it. If you get a bad game on a console you can trade it in for some cash and get a different game.

 

If they are implementing familiars as the PnP game then more power to them. Also I found the familiars quite useful in BG 2.

[Volourn]

"They appear to have thrown away the gratuitous tanks wizards and sorcerers got in NWN as their familiars and replaced them with familiars more in the spirit of the pen-and-paper game..."

 

No, they aren't. Familairs in pnp cna be used as pretty effective combaters. Obsidian's version in NWN2 seems to be anti combat. Afterall, pnp familairs have to be some type of valuableness in melee since they are often used to make touch attack spells. If a familiar sucked in combat why would a wizard use them for that. No logic there at all.

 

The NWN familair while 'beefed up' a little bit from pnp are a lot closer to the 'spirit' of pnp familairs than any other D&D game familiar used. Heck, pnp familairs tend to have better ac, better sr, and better special abilities than NWN familiar. Heck, under the right circumsatnce,s pnp familiars cna even have more hp. The only thing NWN familairs did better was increased damage (for some of the familairs).

[Judge Hades]

I guess it depends on the single player campaign in how well they are used.