60 Hours of Hopeless Romancing

[darthbass123]

they may have an "RPG of the year but that doesn't compare to over 60 Game of the Year awards. You can't compare that. That is just proof that K1 is better.

[subnubilus]

they may have an "RPG of the year but that doesn't compare to over 60 Game of the Year awards. You can't compare that. That is just proof that K1 is better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I will reply to some of the other posts in just a bit, but I had to say, your comment is just silly. I liked KotOR II better, as I'm sure at least one other person did, so THAT'S proof that K1 is NOT better, but rather that it is subjective. Besides, people, in general, are incredibly stupid. If you don't believe me, wander around in the various official Halo 2 boards on Bungie.net. That isn't a jab or a joke, I'm serious... that's humanity in there, and they buy the games. A game like Halo 2 is much more likely to have the mainstreamers post on it's boards than a game like KotOR II.

[subnubilus]

Actually, the only problem I had was the immersion factor.  Every time I felt like I was getting into the game there seemed to be something missing, which seems to be a commonality.  The ending just fell flat and there were a lot of unanswered questions.  Especially considering the whole posse of saber toting lightsiders I had with me going into the final act, darksiders the second time around, the events surrounding both female and male PCs in regards to romantic interests, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm almost totally in it for the immersion/escapist factor. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE menus and statistics and all that dorky stuff, but it's just a frosting, which is why you don't hear me complaining too much about the combat elements (which, in both KotOR games, is in many ways absolutely ridiculous, IMO). I agree with you... at least in part. I was totally immersed up until my meeting with the Council, and after that, it was like the game ended without it... ending. It left a sudden hole in me, and that's why it hit me so hard, I think. I'm totally over it, and I'm almost glad it happened now because it's got me thinking about game design again, but I agree with you.

 

The thing is, as much as I liked the first game, I don't think it pulled me in like this one did, probably because of the quality of the dialogue this time around. I took time after a session to think over things Kreia said, because, inadvertently or not, she seemed truthful to me, yet in an uncomfortable sort of way. I thought I might end up falling to the Dark Side "properly", but she didn't keep it up long enough.

 

I think they made certain aspects so rich that it made the game seem worse when they didn't allow that much more interaction... like holographic dessert, if that makes any sense.

[Laozi]

K2 made the necessary improvements that any sequel should make in terms of gameplay, but that was to be expected. I'm not really all about the whole "they were rushed" basically because they used 2 planets that were in the first game, and made both smaller in terms of area. They just didn't plan ahead very well and paided for it.

 

That being said, the first 3/4 of k2 were indeed a bit better with the end being tragically stupid. Basically k1 as a 4.5 out of 5 and k2 was a 3.8, but could have very easily been a full point higher.

[subnubilus]

KOTOR:2 was improved in the following areas:

 

Skills more useful

Non-Jedi characters more useful

Workbench

T3 much better character overall

Deeper storyline

Better dialogue

More force powers

Influence system

Better mini-games

Better dark side path

On the whole larger areas.  KOTOR:1 had one really big planet and several small ones.

 

KOTOR:1 has the following advantage:

Better ending

 

Now add those up and tell me which is the better game overall?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, i like Kotor I generally. Here's why:

 

-Kotor I offers a unique and more 'Star Wars' based story. Kotor II had too many elements which made it look like real life.

 

-Somehow, it felt like Kotor II was missing... action. I don't mean killing Sith and soldiers. I mean, the fact that it doesn't feel like there is an enemy. I know they're supposed to be hidden and all, but it just didn't feel like the Sith weren't really a problem. Like there was no danger at all.

 

-Kotor II had a more complicated story which is easily misunderstood. Even if you play 10 times over, you'll still be missing much of the story and will stil lbe confused with many aspects of it.

 

-I really don't like the Influence system. It is impossible to get all the influence with all the characters, making you have to repeat the whole game just to listen to Mandalores' stories or to get GOTO to tell you everything he knows.

 

-The game can be sometimes too easy or too hard, making it unpredictable.

 

However, i have to admit that many things were improved in Kotor II as well. For example, the clothes, force powers, lightsaber forms, etc. I also like the Random loot generator. I also like the new feats and that you get to have a prestige class and you can level up to 40 (I really love Force Crush).

 

This is just my opinion. I'm not trying to say this game sucks (Otherwise i wouldn't be posting here). I'm just saying that i was disappointed with it. It could've been a lot better. Still, it's a good game which i enjoyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fair enough. Here's where I disagree:

 

I thought both games were hit and miss regarding their "Star Wars feel". KotOR II was much more realistic to me, which might be what you're saying, but I preferred that. The lack of goofy characters was something that I appreciated (I don't mind a goofy droid here and there, but I don't like every other character being cartoony which happened a lot in the first game).

 

This game did seem less urgent... you killed people, you didn't really have to defend yourself much. I thought the sheer amount of death being dealt was pretty over the top. But yeah, I can see what you mean.

 

I don't think a complicated story is a problem, unless it's bull****. I have some minor quibbles, but on the whole I thought it was simply more mature. I didn't have trouble understanding it... but they did leave a lot to the imagination, which is good sometimes, but not... you know... when you're playing the whole game just to figure stuff out. I was excited to get to see more of Atris, and her showing at the end was pathetic and abrupt.

 

I didn't like the influence system as much as I thought I would, but for different reasons. I won't get into it now.

 

As for the difficulty, I don't know what you did, but my game was incredible easy. I never experienced anything difficult, believe it or not, which was somewhat of a dissappointment, but then again, it didn't bother me that much. I'm a Jedi, after all!

[subnubilus]

K2 made the necessary improvements that any sequel should make in terms of gameplay, but that was to be expected. I'm not really all about the whole "they were rushed" basically because they used 2 planets that were in the first game, and made both smaller in terms of area. They just didn't plan ahead very well and paided for it.

 

That being said, the first 3/4 of k2 were indeed a bit better with the end being tragically stupid. Basically k1 as a 4.5 out of 5 and k2 was a 3.8, but could have very easily been a full point higher.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not going to give them crap because I've never walked in their shoes, but I imagine planning better would have helped. The ending, tying up the loose ends and all, is much more important than the beginning, and bits of the middle. Some priority should have gone to the end game. I thought Malachor V was pretty lame altogether.

 

What's up with the horrible CG there, anyway? That ship would be toast, not to mention the passengers, if it hit those rocks that hard. And it magically repaired itself? The whole ending seemed tacked on.

[subnubilus]

I just finished "The Sith Lords" for the Xbox earlier this evening, and I feel terrible!

It's quite a common reaction. It's precisely because the rest of the game is so good that you feel so bad when the ending flops. If the whole game had been mediocre, I'd just have stuck it up on the shelf and moved on to something else.

 

The feeling of disappointment lessens when you start playing again, because you're immersed in the strong portion of the game and finding new things you missed the first time.

...the story, dialogue, and general maturity of the narrative was improved.  This is a game which I've taken very seriously, and that is why the issue I have has irked me immensely.

I agree, though obviously Obsidian were never going to satisfy everyone, nor should they try.

(the most glaring of which is the multitude of alternate responses you give during dialogue which do exactly the same thing as another response).

This annoys me, too, though it has its defenders. In the case of Atris it makes sense, because she's so full of herself you could probably start juggling grenades and she wouldn't notice. Sometimes it allows you to express yourself in a different way, enhancing roleplaying opportunities, but more often it's just changing the words to create an illusion of choice that doesn't really exist.

So the reason Brianna was giving me the cold shoulder was simple.

 

I didn't ask her to put her clothes back on.

 

...the designers made this THE ONLY trigger to advance the Handmaiden's plot along.  THE ONLY TRIGGER.

I don't think so - it's more likely to be lack of influence, as others have said above. First time through it's quite easy to lose influence a couple of times and not think much of it, especially when Visas joins.

After our words at Telos, after Atris, she talked about being a disciple and following me and all this stuff that seemed to me to finally be moving us along to some sort of trust, some channel of communication.  But you what happened instead?  On Citadel Station, she reverted to responding to me with the same tired (and now irrelevant) dialogue she did earlier in the game.

Rushed ending. Have you read the cut content threads or the information about the Restoration Project? There are scenes with Handmaiden on Malachor which should get restored.

 

It's a major design flaw for all the characters that the act of Jedification is essentially the end of their development in the game, rather than a mid-way point before the student-teacher phase begins. It is very strange that Obsidian can work so hard to create characters that you care about and yet not see in advance that this would be a common reaction. I'm less inclined to attribute this to haste - more of a genuine mistake.

Obsidian: I loved your game, you did a GREAT job with it.  I've been meaning throughout my play to congratulate you.  This one thing slipped through and took me down, I know, but there was so much to this game, and you did so much right.

I think Obsidian appreciate honest and detailed feedback like this, though in public they can't do more than defend their product. There is a magazine article floating around the forums in which they discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the game, but they don't exactly focus on the storytelling weaknesses. It might be that it's a little too close to home for them to open up about it - stories are supposed to be their great strength, after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would like to play it again eventually, but I can't for a good while... I'm moving to California any day now (as soon as my latest painting sells) to wash dishes while I try to get a job as a game tester, and considering I'll have about $500 when I get there, with nowhere to go, who knows how long it will be until I can get a place long enough to make it reasonable to ship my monitor and game systems out there. This game was my farewell for the gaming hiatus I'm about to undergo.

 

I still think I had enough influence with the Handmaiden... I really made that my main goal, and she said she wanted me to train her. From what I've read online, it sounds like you have to beat her three times in the duels (I did) and then ask her to put her clothes back on, and she puts on a Jedi robe that was her mother's or something, and then you ask her about that, and then ask Kreia... and then all this good stuff I missed out on... and then that's that. I will keep an open mind though, because that still seems like a REALLY bad decision to me, to design it like that... what if you don't ask her to put clothes on, but you use her in your party, clothing her... then what? She won't undress again, so you don't have the option of asking her to put clothes on. So maybe I'm wrong. Did anyone else here NOT use guides/internet on their first go through and run into the same problem I did (assuming you too had high Handmaiden influence)?

 

About the Restoration Project... I don't have the PC version! I'm a Mac guy myself (and haven't had a PC since my Tribes 2 days), but once they come out with the Intel Macs and I have some money, I plan to dual-boot with Windows and get back into PC gaming (even though, actual games available aside, I prefer consoles). And it's not my bag, anyway... it would take a lot to try and explain why, but I'm mostly in it for the first play through. I am as hardcore a gamer as they come, but I think I have a different way of approaching games, or at least different things I get out of them, than most people. I can read books over and over again, but for various reasons, playing games over again is totally different. I'll do it occasionally, but usually after a long time has passed, and more for nostalgia than for true escapism.

[cyn_dolores]

Turning Mira into a Jedi is not quite as random as what you're describing, but still hard for some people to figure out. I don't think it's intended to be difficult because it's so damn easy with others.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just one note: To turn mira into a jedi you must have 11 in awarness

[Jedi Guardian]

Turning Mira into a Jedi is not quite as random as what you're describing, but still hard for some people to figure out. I don't think it's intended to be difficult because it's so damn easy with others.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just one note: To turn mira into a jedi you must have 11 in awarness

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think that you need to have awareness, because I remember playing through once as a Jedi Consular, and I only had about 2 in awareness but I was still able to train her as a Jedi Sentinal. I think there was another dialogue option other than the Awareness one.

[subnubilus]

Oh, kinda off topic, but I remember now what I was going to say... one thing they DIDN'T improve was the headgear! I remember at Comic-Con 2004 when they had some Obsidian guy showing the game off, I asked if they would still have all the terrible looking headgear, and the guy laughed and said it was all still in. I kept the dumb looking stuff off, and compromised occasionally with some okay looking stuff if it really fit the character in function.

 

Not a big deal, but kind of an obvious thing... er, right? Anyone else think the headgear, save a few cool looking masks, is hideous?

[Daroowise]

Not a big deal, but kind of an obvious thing... er, right?  Anyone else think the headgear, save a few cool looking masks, is hideous?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yea, actually, the only reason I even fired up the save game editor originally was because I wanted some headgear that didn't look uber stupid... alas, no such luck. The circlet of saresh had to be the worse looking imho... I think I ended up with target assessors as they seemed less intrusive on the face. Even the sith mask I thought looked pretty gimp.

[subnubilus]

Not a big deal, but kind of an obvious thing... er, right?  Anyone else think the headgear, save a few cool looking masks, is hideous?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yea, actually, the only reason I even fired up the save game editor originally was because I wanted some headgear that didn't look uber stupid... alas, no such luck. The circlet of saresh had to be the worse looking imho... I think I ended up with target assessors as they seemed less intrusive on the face. Even the sith mask I thought looked pretty gimp.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Target Assessors, Meditation Bands, and the like look alright on certain characters, especially Mira.

[alanschu]

But why do people usually say Sequals are worse, eh?

 

Because people ARE NOT objective.

 

When they first play KOTOR, they are like "OMFG W0WZ0Rs!!!!"

 

Even if the sequel is better in EVERY way, people will still consider the reaction they got from the first experience of something unlike anything else, to the extension of that. Because of their previous experience with KOTOR, KOTOR 2 would have to be lightyears ahead of KOTOR 1 in order to illicit the same "w0w0w0w0w0w" effect. But because people did not get that effect, they compare the lesser "wow" with the "w0w0w0w0w0w" and draw the conclusion that the original is the best.

 

 

 

EDIT: Regarding head gear, if it doesn't look good, you don't need to wear it.

[EnderAndrew]

What that smart Canadian said!

[BattleCookiee]

Well, some people misunderstand, so here is attempt 2.

We take a GTA3 and a GTA VC:

 

GTA VC has better graphics, optimalisation, music, animation, larger size of map, more mini-games, more missions, better plot and story-line etc.

 

Which one is better? GTA3.

 

Let's take a DX and a DX:IW

 

DX:IW has better graphics, and some other improvements I can't think of

 

Better? DX

 

Let's take a GTA and GTA2

 

GTA2 has larger city, more missions, better graphics, more enemies than just the cops, more weapons...

 

Better? GTA

 

Let's take a UT2003 and UT2004

 

UT2004 has same graphics, all the content of UT2003 and loads of good new stuff like Onslaught more

 

Better? UT2004

 

Let's take a Dungeon Siege and Dungeon Siege 2

 

DS 2 has better graphics, more char-custumisation etc.

 

Better? DS2

 

Let's take a Half-Life and Half-Life 2

 

Better? Half-Life 2

 

Let's take a Doom3 and a Doom2

 

Better? Doom2

 

You'll see that with exact the same things some games are seen as better, yet other as worse, because people look objective to BOTH, and then decide which they had most fun with.

 

Ofcourse if it is a complete re-hearsal of previous game it is going to be aimed better "since you already know it", but why should we base on "improvements" rather than more fun according to you?

 

Do you think a Rage of Mages 2 is better? Almost the same, but ofcourse the improvents make it better... prefer DX:IW over DX?

No, why?

Do you find a NFS: Underground 2 better than 1 even though it has minimal improvements. Why?

[EnderAndrew]

I disagree that GTA:3 is better than VC and that GTA is better than GTA:2.

 

Comparing Doom 2 to Doom 3 is almost apples to oranges.

[dufflover]

Star Trek Elite Force 2 is better than Elite Force 1...

[CoM_Solaufein]

Both games are good and well worth the money.

[germi91]

KOTOR:2 was improved in the following areas:

 

Skills more useful

Non-Jedi characters more useful

Workbench

T3 much better character overall

Deeper storyline

Better dialogue

More force powers

Influence system

Better mini-games

Better dark side path

On the whole larger areas.  KOTOR:1 had one really big planet and several small ones.

 

KOTOR:1 has the following advantage:

Better ending

 

Now add those up and tell me which is the better game overall?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, i like Kotor I generally. Here's why:

 

-Kotor I offers a unique and more 'Star Wars' based story. Kotor II had too many elements which made it look like real life.

 

-Somehow, it felt like Kotor II was missing... action. I don't mean killing Sith and soldiers. I mean, the fact that it doesn't feel like there is an enemy. I know they're supposed to be hidden and all, but it just didn't feel like the Sith weren't really a problem. Like there was no danger at all.

 

-Kotor II had a more complicated story which is easily misunderstood. Even if you play 10 times over, you'll still be missing much of the story and will stil lbe confused with many aspects of it.

 

-I really don't like the Influence system. It is impossible to get all the influence with all the characters, making you have to repeat the whole game just to listen to Mandalores' stories or to get GOTO to tell you everything he knows.

 

-The game can be sometimes too easy or too hard, making it unpredictable.

 

However, i have to admit that many things were improved in Kotor II as well. For example, the clothes, force powers, lightsaber forms, etc. I also like the Random loot generator. I also like the new feats and that you get to have a prestige class and you can level up to 40 (I really love Force Crush).

 

This is just my opinion. I'm not trying to say this game sucks (Otherwise i wouldn't be posting here). I'm just saying that i was disappointed with it. It could've been a lot better. Still, it's a good game which i enjoyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fair enough. Here's where I disagree:

 

I thought both games were hit and miss regarding their "Star Wars feel". KotOR II was much more realistic to me, which might be what you're saying, but I preferred that. The lack of goofy characters was something that I appreciated (I don't mind a goofy droid here and there, but I don't like every other character being cartoony which happened a lot in the first game).

 

This game did seem less urgent... you killed people, you didn't really have to defend yourself much. I thought the sheer amount of death being dealt was pretty over the top. But yeah, I can see what you mean.

 

I don't think a complicated story is a problem, unless it's bull****. I have some minor quibbles, but on the whole I thought it was simply more mature. I didn't have trouble understanding it... but they did leave a lot to the imagination, which is good sometimes, but not... you know... when you're playing the whole game just to figure stuff out. I was excited to get to see more of Atris, and her showing at the end was pathetic and abrupt.

 

I didn't like the influence system as much as I thought I would, but for different reasons. I won't get into it now.

 

As for the difficulty, I don't know what you did, but my game was incredible easy. I never experienced anything difficult, believe it or not, which was somewhat of a dissappointment, but then again, it didn't bother me that much. I'm a Jedi, after all!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, it really depends on your taste. Personally, l like movies/games which are more 'loyal' to the original trilogy. For example, l loved R2-D2 and C-3PO and their arguing. T3 reminded me of that in Kotor II which is something l felt was improved.

I recall someone mentioning the inmersion factor. This is the main problem l had with the game. The fact that it didn't feel like Star Wars at all. I didn't feel like I was part of the Star Wars story. But that's just me, since i'm a fanatic of Star Wars

 

Because people ARE NOT objective.

 

When they first play KOTOR, they are like "OMFG W0WZ0Rs!!!!"

 

Even if the sequel is better in EVERY way, people will still consider the reaction they got from the first experience of something unlike anything else, to the extension of that. Because of their previous experience with KOTOR, KOTOR 2 would have to be lightyears ahead of KOTOR 1 in order to illicit the same "w0w0w0w0w0w" effect. But because people did not get that effect, they compare the lesser "wow" with the "w0w0w0w0w0w" and draw the conclusion that the original is the best.

 

 

 

EDIT: Regarding head gear, if it doesn't look good, you don't need to wear it.

 

Sometimes sequels are better. Sometimes they're not. In my opinion, i think Kotor I had a better storyline which felt like it had more to do with Star Wars. I just didn't feel like Kotor II was true Star Wars. For me, Star Wars is more simple. It's supposed to be Good vs Evil or Evil vs Good with Fairytale Romance. When l play as the exile, i feel like he's just complicated and thinks about wether good or evil actually exist and how he is the 'wound' in the force. I think Star Wars is much more simple than that and it should've stayed that way. George Lucas should've stayed loyal to his first movies. That's my opinion. But like l said before, each person has his/her own taste.

 

On a side note: I'm sorry Obisidian... l think you should let Bioware make the RPGs around here... no really, you should. And l know you're doing Neverwinter Nights 2, so... you'd better be loyal to the Forgotten Realms world! I love that D&D game and i want to see a hell good of a game

[BattleCookiee]

I disagree that GTA:3 is better than VC and that GTA is better than GTA:2.

 

Comparing Doom 2 to Doom 3 is almost apples to oranges.

 

Yes.

GTA: VC had improvements. Loads of them.

But since alot of the fun, like wasting cops, was already done ALOT in GTA3, eventually I had less fun with VC, and putted it away faster than I did with GTA3...

Same with GTA2 and 1...

Since they both didn't have the "3D's storyline and movies", basically it was just having fun around the cities, something GTA 2 didn't improved alot on, thus causing it to "gather dust" faster...

 

And comparing Doom 2/3. That's comparing an apple to a shiny apple...

[subnubilus]

BattleWookie, I see your point but the fact remains that some of us do find KotOR II to be more "fun" or "immersive" or whatever we were looking for. I know I'm in the minority, but for most of the game I did get into it more than the first KotOR.

 

 

And Germi, I too am a Star Wars fanatic (Episodes IV, V, and VI only), and I felt both of these games were unfaithful to the source material in many, many ways. The only reason it doesn't bother me as much as the prequels is because it's not accepted as canon, I don't think, so it's more of a fantasy on the side. I don't really take anything to be real Star Wars except the old trilogy, and even then, there is no definitive edition IMO... the old movies had some issues (Jabba as a man, for instance), and the special editions and DVD editions have a LOT of problems... so Star Wars, as an ideal, is not something I've seen materialized, and I don't think I'll ever see it. I wouldn't mind getting the chance to take a swing at it though, but I bet dealing with Lucasarts, even if you do make it big, is a legal pain in the ass, without as much freedom as you'd need to NOT screw it up.

[Calax]

OK, I just read the first post and I'm going to have to agree with him. Overall the game was better. It would have been even better but LA rushed it for the Christmas release. I guess if it had actually come up I would have been angred by the put some clothes on thing to get you to be a jedi but it didn't. I still agree with you man and welcome to the forums (I shouldn't be saying anything considering i'm only two months "old")

[GhostofAnakin]

BattleWookie, I see your point but the fact remains that some of us do find KotOR II to be more "fun" or "immersive" or whatever we were looking for.  I know I'm in the minority, but for most of the game I did get into it more than the first KotOR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're not in the minority. It just happens that the TSL haters don't seem to want to stop repeating the same things over and over.

[EnderAndrew]

I felt overall KOTOR:2 was a better game.

[Daroowise]

You're not in the minority.  It just happens that the TSL haters don't seem to want to stop repeating the same things over and over. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Personally, it isn't a matter of hating the game but rather the annoyance with all the loopholes through cut content. Personally, if they'd have just cleaned up after they started hacking stuff it wouldn't have mattered one way or another and I'm betting there wouldn't be nearly as many people interested in the cut content.

 

Not to rant but as it stands, your party suddenly disappears during the final sequence with exception to a small bit by the droid Bao-Dur sent in his steed (I never did unlock any conversation that explained why he chose to, but I infer it was the Telos restoration) and a minor confrontational (LS) for Mira.

 

There's also the plethora of dialogue regarding the HK-50s and your loveable assassin droids desire to solve said problematic instancing.

 

Then there's the storyline break during the cutscene with G0T0 and Bao-Dur's droid in that G0T0 controls the situation but LS you end up setting off the MSG after all instead of the whole sequence where HK-47 comes along with the reprogrammed HK-50s and puts and end to G0T0.

 

The fact that the rest of my jedi wannabe posse just up and failed to make an appearance in the finale seems rather odd... again, I just infered they all died or were knocked unconcious on landing, if you want to call it that.

 

No, its not a hate for TSL... just a loathing for poorly finalized products. After all, I shilled out a fair amount of money for what I thought was a highly acclaimed sequel. However, what I got was rough product that had been rushed through finalization to meet a bottom line and a deadline.

 

Again, I'd have been satisfied with the current content the game offers if they'd have just cut out all the loose ends and loopholes. I won't go into the argument on how annoying I found that they actually included the cut content during install even though it isn't actually a part of tha game.

 

I guess, more than anything, its a desire that publishers should be held accountable for the quality of games they make especiallly considering the amount of money they request for said product... as a realist, I understand the fruitlessness of such a desire however