LOSE THE F^_^ING CUT SCENES

[Karzak]

When stats are removed from the game, 99% of people (Karzak included, I am sure) play their Int 3, Cha 3 orc barbarians as if they were Int 20, Cha 20 elf wizards. Without stats, it is not f***ing possible to distinguish between two characters within the context of the rules. This is true in PnP, and is even more true in CRPGs.

Even when stats are in the game, they are not enforced.

 

When they are not in a game like DE they make no real difference, since like PS:T, you are playing a predetermined PC.

 

I think you miss the point of what role playing vs. role playing really means.

[Iolo]

When stats are removed from the game, 99% of people (Karzak included, I am sure) play their Int 3, Cha 3 orc barbarians as if they were Int 20, Cha 20 elf wizards. Without stats, it is not f***ing possible to distinguish between two characters within the context of the rules. This is true in PnP, and is even more true in CRPGs.

Even when stats are in the game, they are not enforced.

 

When they are not in a game like DE they make no real difference, since like PS:T, you are playing a predetermined PC.

 

I think you miss the point of what role playing vs. role playing really means.

I think the use of stats enforces playing a character a certain way or at least prevents playing a character out of character as it suits the player's fancy. You are not playing you in the RPG. If the game doesn't enforce them, then that's bad game design because it should. An Int 6 player in a D&D game should be severely restricted for instance.

 

DE, either one, had no role playing, not really.

[Karzak]

DE had as much or more RPing as KotOR.

 

And the use of stats in a CRPG is seldom if ever properly implemented, in fact, there is no way to play your 6 int PC properly because the game doesn't allow it.

[Aegeri]

DE had as much or more RPing as KotOR.

Yes, as you've asserted several times with no actually valid examples or arguments being put forth.

 

Not very convincing.

[Volourn]

Uh... Perhaps, that's because he's *not* trying to convince you but giving his opinion.

[Joren DarkStar]

When are you people going to realize that KOTOR was not meant to be a straight up role playing game?

 

I mean, I hear in one breath a lot of people admit that it wasn't an RPG, and then in the other, try to tell the devs here to make the second one more of an RPG.

 

KOTOR is an adventure game with RPG elements - stop trying to tell people to make the second one anything more than that. It had a base in the d20 rules - a base, not a strict enforcement of.

 

Keep the cut-scenes, keep all the things people said to cut because they weren't "True RPG", and just worry about adding a new story and make improvements on the old system (which works just fine for what it was intended for). We don't need something radically different - just a captivating plot that can go in several directions based on your choices; just like the original.

 

Seriously, some of you people are trying to reinvent the wheel here. Essentially, a lot of you are saying you want KOTOR 2 to be ... not like KOTOR. Yet KOTOR did quite well, so may I suggest that if you want to play a game that isn't like KOTOR, then why not go find a game you do like to play, and stop trying to tell the devs to mold KOTOR 2 into something that doesn't even resemble the very successful original?

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

Why should they? I don't think it's their concern whether or not Obsidian gets loads of cash. They want a game they will enjoy, and I see nothing wrong with them trying to influence Obsidian's design decisions with their requests.

[Karzak]

DE had as much or more RPing as KotOR.

Yes, as you've asserted several times with no actually valid examples or arguments being put forth.

 

Not very convincing.

LOL, if playing both games doesn't convince you, then nothing will.

 

For most people playing both games is all that is needed to see that DE is more of an RPG than KotOR.

[Iolo]

When are you people going to realize that KOTOR was not meant to be a straight up role playing game?

 

I mean, I hear in one breath a lot of people admit that it wasn't an RPG, and then in the other, try to tell the devs here to make the second one more of an RPG.

 

KOTOR is an adventure game with RPG elements - stop trying to tell people to make the second one anything more than that.  It had a base in the d20 rules - a base, not a strict enforcement of.

 

Keep the cut-scenes, keep all the things people said to cut because they weren't "True RPG", and just worry about adding a new story and make improvements on the old system (which works just fine for what it was intended for).  We don't need something radically different - just a captivating plot that can go in several directions based on your choices; just like the original.

 

Seriously, some of you people are trying to reinvent the wheel here.  Essentially, a lot of you are saying you want KOTOR 2 to be ... not like KOTOR.  Yet KOTOR did quite well, so may I suggest that if you want to play a game that isn't like KOTOR, then why not go find a game you do like to play, and stop trying to tell the devs to mold KOTOR 2 into something that doesn't even resemble the very successful original?

It seemed more like an RPG to me than an Adventure game. I guess then I'd wonder what your definition of Adventure game is. KOTOR seemed to me like NWN but with better graphics and the not suckyness part. The use of multiple companions and companion interaction added back the aspect of NWN I missed the most from BG2 as well.

 

My definition of Adventure game is Syberia and The Longest Journey. Probably the only two really good Adventure games of the last few years.

[mkreku]

My definition of Adventure game is Syberia and The Longest Journey. Probably the only two really good Adventure games of the last few years.

Unbelievably off topic, but I just had to recommend this quite new adventure game I played a few months back that I really liked and thought was awesome: Runaway - A Road Adventure. It has really great graphics, a really interesting story and surprisingly good problems to solve. For some reason it didn't score very high in reviews around the net.. I'd say "Highly Recommended" anyhow.

 

Read more about Runaway - A Road Adventure here.

[FrankK]

The use of multiple companions and companion interaction added back the aspect of NWN I missed the most from BG2 as well.

HotU would definately be a recommended buy. Good stuff and more companions that interact with each other (ok you get 2 now--but at least you get larger fights as a result).

 

PS - This thread officially Hijacked, take it to Cuba, boys.

[HiddenAssassin]

DE had as much or more RPing as KotOR.

 

And the use of stats in a CRPG is seldom if ever properly implemented, in fact, there is no way to play your 6 int PC properly because the game doesn't allow it.

 

you say this now but try playing a INT<4 in Fallout and try talking to people besides Torr in the 2nd 1

[Darque]

DE had as much or more RPing as KotOR.

Yes, as you've asserted several times with no actually valid examples or arguments being put forth.

 

Not very convincing.

LOL, if playing both games doesn't convince you, then nothing will.

 

For most people playing both games is all that is needed to see that DE is more of an RPG than KotOR.

"Because I say so" really isn't a winning argument

 

I've played Dues Ex.. and no, it's not more of an RPG than KoTOR.

 

It's definately more of a FPS than it though.

[Iolo]

I agree (and with your signature as well). Deus Ex had more roleplaying in terms of having a better story and more ways in terms of how to complete objectives but that was about it. Both were very linear. However, KOTOR has character creation and more ways in which to advance your character's development. So Deus Ex is not more RPG than KOTOR.

 

[Karzak]

I agree (and with your signature as well). Deus Ex had more roleplaying in terms of having a better story and more ways in terms of how to complete objectives but that was about it. Both were very linear. However, KOTOR has character creation and more ways in which to advance your character's development. So Deus Ex is not more RPG than KOTOR.

 

Both have character creation, true that KotOR has nore choices, but they are largely meaningless choices in the game, and there is no real RPing in KotOR, or I would be running the sith school with that young wookie lover as my personal sex slave.

 

DE has more RPing, character creation isn't RPing.

[Karzak]

DE had as much or more RPing as KotOR.

Yes, as you've asserted several times with no actually valid examples or arguments being put forth.

 

Not very convincing.

LOL, if playing both games doesn't convince you, then nothing will.

 

For most people playing both games is all that is needed to see that DE is more of an RPG than KotOR.

"Because I say so" really isn't a winning argument

 

I've played Dues Ex.. and no, it's not more of an RPG than KoTOR.

 

It's definately more of a FPS than it though.

"Because I say so" really isn't a winning argument

 

I've played Deus Ex.. and yes, it's more of an RPG than KoTOR.

[Iolo]

I agree (and with your signature as well).

[Karzak]

Actually character creation, among other things of course, is RPing.

Nope, I can spend allday rolling up PC's and won't have RP'd a bit.

 

Both DE and KotOR have lcompletely linear stories, they work out the same no matter what, both have mutiple endings, DE has 3.

 

But DE allows you play the role of JC Denton better than KotOR allows you to play Karzak the sith.

[Iolo]

Actually character creation, among other things of course, is RPing.

Nope, I can spend allday rolling up PC's and won't have RP'd a bit.

 

Both DE and KotOR have lcompletely linear stories, they work out the same no matter what, both have mutiple endings, DE has 3.

 

But DE allows you play the role of JC Denton better than KotOR allows you to play Karzak the sith.

And then in the sequel they ruin it by taking the cop out of having all 3 endings have happened (which in effect makes JC Denton a bad guy). So it really was no choice. I am not certain DE allows me to play the role of JC Denton better. The number of side quests are less in DE for instance. At some point, you need to consider what IS the definition of an RPG. When in doubt go back to the original source, P&P games. This includes D&D or White Wolf's games (as well as Star Wars D20) among others of course. KOTOR is more similar to these than DE is.

[Darque]

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

But since you really can't prove your point I guess the KoTOR is a better RPG side wins by default since Dues Ex is a First person shooter

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Character creation taken out of context, like done above, isn't roleplaying; just like having NPCs to "join your group" also isn't roleplaying if also taken out of context. However character creation is crucial to roleplaying, as it determines what type of character you'll play. No "if's" or "but"'s, thats how it is.

 

Also if you go by the rule that KoTOR's choices are meaningless. then for the life of me i can't see what Deus Ex has over it. All choices are meaningless as well. Only in the last level do they matter, and they're made right there (as all you've done before is even more meaningless). Deus Ex operates like Thief, with a general mission objective and ocasional side missions which you may or may not complete. I could spend the rest of the day taking games that follow a similar structure and yet aren't RPGs.

[Joren DarkStar]

Why should they? I don't think it's their concern whether or not Obsidian gets loads of cash. They want a game they will enjoy, and I see nothing wrong with them trying to influence Obsidian's design decisions with their requests.

Why should they?

 

Here is why.

 

You will NOT be able to make everyone happy.

 

That's why. There are too many people here who, if the game is indeed KOTOR2, want the game to essentially play like anything but the original KOTOR. It's one thing if they were fans of the first, but a lot here want Fallout, or another NWN, or another Morrowind, etc. My point being this - what is the point if KOTOR 2 is just "KOTOR - Fallout Edition" or "KOTOR - Morrowind Edition"? It ceases to be KOTOR, which means the fans that help make the original gold are left alienated. Essentially, it would be the developers shunning the main stream who loved the game as it was, and catering to the nit-picking hard core gamers. Thus, you not only have a smaller group you are catering to (meaning you get less money), you are catering to a group that likes to complain and nitpick, and might not buy the game anyway. Major rule of thumb - NEVER cater to the hardcore gamers - sorry guys, but it is just bad business. You cater to the mainstream gamer, and then, add tweaks here and there for the hardcore guys if you have the time.

 

THAT is why if some hardcore guy wants KOTOR 2 to be anything other than a souped up KOTOR, they should just end up focusing on some other game, and leaving the development ideas for KOTOR 2 to the fans of it, not the detractors.

 

Of course, if this is not KOTOR 2, then what I said is moot, and they can go for it (although I would be curious as to who IS developing KOTOR 2).

 

Granted, we do not know what the game in development is right now, but I think that those who don't want KOTOR 2, or want to change it into something non-KOTOR if it is indeed that, should not post in the KOTOR-themed threads - leave that be for the fans who think this is KOTOR 2, and are eagerly awaiting a sequel.

 

I realize there is no way to enforce this - its more of a respect thing; something I honestly think there is little of in the society of today. That's why I don't expect it.

 

But anyway, if you think the complainers here are the majority of KOTOR fans, then I challenge you to go look at the Bioware forums and the gamefaqs.com KOTOR forums. You will see a much different and more appreciative fan base with more legit concerns for the game and a sequel than the whiners here who want KOTOR 2 to be everything but. Just a note for the developers to read, so they don't get conned into believing that the people here critiquing KOTOR 1 represent the majority of KOTOR fans.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"You will NOT be able to make everyone happy."

 

They're not trying to make everyone happy. They're trying to make themselves happy. It is not their business whether or not Obsidian Entertainment makes loads of cash. They're telling the people at Obsidian what they want to see, not what they think others like. Obsidian's success is not their responsibility.

 

"Granted, we do not know what the game in development is right now, but I think that those who don't want KOTOR 2, or want to change it into something non-KOTOR if it is indeed that, should not post in the KOTOR-themed threads - leave that be for the fans who think this is KOTOR 2, and are eagerly awaiting a sequel."

 

You are doing exactly the same thing as they are: trying to get Obsidian make the game you want. Too bad you're telling them to shut up, because what they're requesting isn't what you want.

 

Fans shouldn't get any special privileges.

[Karzak]

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

But since you really can't prove your point I guess the KoTOR is a better RPG side wins by default since Dues Ex is a First person shooter

LOL, KotOR is an over the shoulder shooter with crappy combat.

 

DE is a generic title, if KotOR didn';t have the SW lable we wouldn't even be discussing such a sub par game.

[Karzak]

Character creation taken out of context, like done above, isn't roleplaying; just like having NPCs to "join your group" also isn't roleplaying if also taken out of context. However character creation is crucial to roleplaying, as it determines what type of character you'll play. No "if's" or "but"'s, thats how it is.

You are sidestepping the point. That KotOR has a longer character generation has no bearing on RPing, you can RP just as well with a pregen PC as one you made yourself.

 

So now that we have nullified the claim that KotOR is better because of its PC generation scheme, we are back to which is a better RPG as based on the games themselves. Here DE is clearly the winner, both games are completely linear till the end, but DE has three endings, KotOR two.

 

DE also has a better plot, better story and a better PC.