TSL Story From a Writers Perspective

[Blarghagh]

I can't believe I'm hearing this from a writer. If you start writing a story, do you have your readers know the main character's entire history right away? The reason why the book 'Fight Club' worked so well was that you knew nothing about the main character. Not even his name.

 

First and foremost, Revan in KOTOR did NOT have amnesia. He had a history implanted in his brain. If you're a scoundrel, for example, he was said to have been a smuggler. We know NOTHING about the character in KOTOR up until the revelation that he's Darth Revan. This is bad writing. If we did know about the character's history, it would have given the revelation so much more weight. That's just as much a major flaw on Bioware's side, but you seem to be praising them for it.

 

You're saying that this story, which was written as that, a story, has a better story than a story that was written as a game. I'm sorry, I think that's bull****. In this game, you got to know about the main character throughout the story, as it would be written in a book. It may not be good in a game, but it should definately be a plus from a writer's perspective. Your perspective I would call the 'possesive perspective', since you seem to be obsessed with the fact that this character is your character. It's not. It's The Exile, a character that's been written by Obsidian Entertainment, just as Revan was a character that was written by Bioware Corp. Just because you were allowed more customisation in this game than, say, Beyond Good & Evil or Final Fantasy, does not make it your character, just as much as this is an interactive story, not 'your' story. Just because 'you' didn't remember the Mass Shadow Generator doesn't mean The Exile didn't. It's definately not Deus Ex Machina, because it didn't 'resolve' anything. In fact, it's still not been resolved. The focus was on the master - apprentice relationship, not Bao-Dur's invention.

 

On characters, Atton did not 'want to become' the good guy. Up until the moment he killed that female Jedi, he thought he was the good guy. If you play a lightside character, you show him what being a good guy is. This makes him realize that he did it wrong, and he should try again. Just because it's not spelled out for you like it was in the original, doesn't mean it's bad. It just means you need an imagination of your own. Most of the relationships in this game are written to be subtle and allow for you to imagine things yourself, so you can have a unique view of the story. Besides, Kreia was already a Sith Lord. If Atton was one too, there'd be two characters with the same story hook. If you think that's good writing, you'd belong with the bad writers at at fanfiction.com.

 

Let's note that The Exile is not 'a natural born leader', he makes force bonds. He attracts force sensetives, which is why people such as Atton and Mira stay with him, and why they are so easily turned into jedi. These people are going to make up the new Jedi Order, that's what they're there for.

 

The ending has been discussed, things were cut out. The story was written well enough, this is no fault of the writers. Just not everything that was written made it.

 

I'm on my second playthrough, on my first planet. Obviously, you do not need to play through the game four times to understand the story. You just need to pay attention. If you needed to play through four times, you are stupid. I regret that I had to make such a flame like final comment, but that's just what I think. You have to be stupid or have the attention span of a gnat if you had to play through four times.

[213374U]

actually it does if he's a good writer, doesnt if he's not a good writer and you cant judge that by a couple of forum posts. thats why when its time to write a script or a story, you dont call the programmers to do it, you hire a writer. they usually have studied the language they write in more than the average person and can translate a story into written form better. they also use fancier words than better so it doesnt sound boring.

No. The opinion on the story's quality has nothing to do with the ability to craft a good story. There are no better or worse opinions. And if you will take another's opinion on a subjective matter over your own just because he has more credentials than you do, then you are just an idiot. )

[The Great Phantom]

I can't believe I'm hearing this from a writer. If you start writing a story, do you have your readers know the main character's entire history right away? The reason why the book 'Fight Club' worked so well was that you knew nothing about the main character. Not even his name.

 

First and foremost, Revan in KOTOR did NOT have amnesia. He had a history implanted in his brain. If you're a scoundrel, for example, he was said to have been a smuggler. We know NOTHING about the character in KOTOR up until the revelation that he's Darth Revan. This is bad writing. If we did know about the character's history, it would have given the revelation so much more weight. That's just as much a major flaw on Bioware's side, but you seem to be praising them for it.

 

You're saying that this story, which was written as that, a story, has a better story than a story that was written as a game. I'm sorry, I think that's bull****. In this game, you got to know about the main character throughout the story, as it would be written in a book. It may not be good in a game, but it should definately be a plus from a writer's perspective. Your perspective I would call the 'possesive perspective', since you seem to be obsessed with the fact that this character is your character. It's not. It's The Exile, a character that's been written by Obsidian Entertainment, just as Revan was a character that was written by Bioware Corp. Just because you were allowed more customisation in this game than, say, Beyond Good & Evil or Final Fantasy, does not make it your character, just as much as this is an interactive story, not 'your' story. Just because 'you' didn't remember the Mass Shadow Generator doesn't mean The Exile didn't. It's definately not Deus Ex Machina, because it didn't 'resolve' anything. In fact, it's still not been resolved. The focus was on the master - apprentice relationship, not Bao-Dur's invention.

 

On characters, Atton did not 'want to become' the good guy. Up until the moment he killed that female Jedi, he thought he was the good guy. If you play a lightside character, you show him what being a good guy is. This makes him realize that he did it wrong, and he should try again. Just because it's not spelled out for you like it was in the original, doesn't mean it's bad. It just means you need an imagination of your own. Most of the relationships in this game are written to be subtle and allow for you to imagine things yourself, so you can have a unique view of the story. Besides, Kreia was already a Sith Lord. If Atton was one too, there'd be two characters with the same story hook. If you think that's good writing, you'd belong with the bad writers at at fanfiction.com.

 

Let's note that The Exile is not 'a natural born leader', he makes force bonds. He attracts force sensetives, which is why people such as Atton and Mira stay with him, and why they are so easily turned into jedi. These people are going to make up the new Jedi Order, that's what they're there for.

 

The ending has been discussed, things were cut out. The story was written well enough, this is no fault of the writers. Just not everything that was written made it.

 

I'm on my second playthrough, on my first planet. Obviously, you do not need to play through the game four times to understand the story. You just need to pay attention. If you needed to play through four times, you are stupid. I regret that I had to make such a flame like final comment, but that's just what I think. You have to be stupid or have the attention span of a gnat if you had to play through four times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Best post I've read in a long time.

[The Great Phantom]

Atton: Redemption.

 

Agree.

 

Mira: Bounty Hunting.

 

Disagree.

 

Mira have a problem with killing people and she starts to kill under the Exile orders.

 

Either is the force bound (I disagree since she did not knew the Exile that well before joining) or because The Exile is a natural leader and she follows him becaise of that.

 

Handmaiden: Natural Warrior Curiousity.

 

Disagree.

 

You only get Handmaiden if you are male so it means one thing, she is attracted to him.

 

She also wants to follow her mother path, the Exile is (or was) a Jedi capable of teaching her down that path.

 

She hides behind her training and there is nothing warrior about following the Exile for her, she loves him and needs him to train her into her mother path.

 

There is a lot of depth into her but you have to really read within the lines to understand her, too bad there is not much dialogue to make that more noticible.

 

Bao-Dur: Following Orders.

 

Agree to a point.

 

Bao-Dur is following his old friend, of course he is the one more likely to be under the force bound.

 

Kreia: Send her to the Loony Bin.

 

Kreia is the Exile Mentor, she is trying to mold the Exile into something to serve her purpose.

 

 

 

Visas: Surprised at power, starts off wanting to join the winning side.

 

No.

 

Visas sees in the Exile a kindred spirit, they both watched a planet die and Visas wanted to serve the Exile when she seen the Exile the first time in the force (not when they battled in the Hawk).

 

She also sees in him someone that can destroy her former master.

 

She personaly explains why if you are a LS male just before going to see Atris, of all she is the easier to understand because she says everything.

 

These are breif discriptions of possible motivations... They are POSSIBILITIES, not the actual motivations per se.

 

I disagreed, I also explained why in brief (perhaps because there is really not that much, I almost turned Mira into a Jedi and I cannot read much out of her except her doubts when mind reading and the others are really not much better except Kreia and Visas for obvious reasons) as the very last thing I think of the characters created by BioWare are anything that can be filled in one liner as to motivation, they are more complex that BioWare characters even if they are not as exposed as BioWare characters ... and that is a flaw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am sorry. I did not go into great detail. The Handmaiden Curiousity was her want to learn the Jedi techniques and follow the path of her mother: aka, Jedi, lover of a great warrior, etc.

The Visas thing was WAY to underdetailed. You corrected the lack of detail, and what you said is what I meant.

Kreia did have her purpose, no matter how self-destructive. I just think that she's a little crazy by the end of the game. Just an opinion. :ph34r:

Mira STARTS because Exile is her bounty. Why she continues to follow could be why you explained.

 

Like I said, I did not put in near enough detail. Thanks again for filling in the gaps.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

read the post, replied to this part. seems you cant read your own post... i got the "complete picture" the first time through. you dont need to hear every line of dialog to get it. try replying with something worthwhile next time.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No you didnt, you may have gotten it from one perspective but you also missed out on two different characters. So to claim you got the complete picture in one playthrough is just not possible.

 

Subtle difference there between understanding the plot,which is possible first time as long as you pay attention.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Kreia did have her purpose, no matter how self-destructive. I just think that she's a little crazy by the end of the game. Just an opinion.  :ph34r:

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can apply that to all Sith teachers. You would have to be crazy to train your own executioner wouldnt you ? Kreia needed you strong to be the instrument of her revenge. Against both the Sith and the Jedi and ultimately the force. It works from both ways which important in an SW game. You can kill the Jedi as DS (you have no choice in killing the Sith either way) or you can learn from them as LS but ultimately you put them in a position where Kreia can kill them all at once.

[The Great Phantom]

I was referring to her suicidal need to destroy the Force, and everything that it touches.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I was referring to her suicidal need to destroy the Force, and everything that it touches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sure all Sith would be the same if they came to the realisation she did that the force has a will. That makes the Sith code not only wrong , but plays you right into the hands of the "slaver".

[Trom]

I'm in the profession myself and my concerns follow the same line.

 

I equate the computer as having as profound effect on life as the invention of the printing press. However, the difference being that while it took decades if not centuries for that invention to work through its potential, we've experienced the same amount of change measured in years if not months.

 

My particular interest in technology is that I've long thought it contained the seeds of a completely new genre of literature brought about by its potential for active participation in a story. Instead of watching a play, you get to be on stage. Not only that, you get to be the main character. What really got my attention was a very early "game" called Starflight II wherein you got to freely explore the universe within a well-constructed plot encountering strange places and civilizations at your leisure. It was the first time I experienced immersion and felt as if I were truly somewhere else. In the fantasy realm, the early Ultima's did that also. The point is I felt as if I no longer was passively experiencing literature, but actually became a part of it. Live theatre, of course, has experimented with this, but has always been impractical. How do you manage the 500 or so audience members in a plot?

 

To me, it has always been an innate desire of the reading or viewing audience to somehow participate in the drama they were reading or viewing. Without going into detail, it is the logical outcome of what started in ancient Greece which was created to assuage man's desire to see the gods walk amongst them. In fact this desire can be traced back to the Neandertals who first cast their imaginations upon the cave walls of Lascaux. With the computer, we have the means to go one step further and not only walk among the gods but become Herakles himself. Every human being has the desire to be more than he appears to be.

 

The problem is how to insert the audience into the plot without destroying the literary value of the experience. In other words, how to attain complete immersion in a plausible and compelling plot that is transparent and open-ended enough to allow for the illusion of choice and maintain the suspension of disbelief? That is a difficult task. Still, I've been alert for signs of it and had seen some, but the so-called "interactive fiction" isn't it--too many words, too little dynamism. Max Payne II showed a lot of promise in this direction but lacked universals. Kotor 1 did an exceptional job of advancing this goal to the point I thought the sequel would finally establish a bona fide new genre.

 

Clearly there was literary, philosophical and historical intent in the making of K2 to take it beyond the bounds of the Star Wars universe. Take the name Atton Rand. Aten was a unique Egyptian god of everlasting life, hence Atton's unique ability to resurrect. The last name is more difficult, but I believe it is a reference to Ayn Rand and her "objectivist" philosophy.

 

So, at least for the time being, to be commercially viable games must serve three audiences: those who like spectacle (combat), those who like plot, and those wanting varying mixtures of both.

 

As far as the plot in K2 goes, consider the difficulties facing the writer of K2:

 

1. Integration with the Star Wars universe

2. Follow the plot threads of K1

3. Account for the variable ending of K1 both in plot and character: Revan LS/DS, male/female, Bastilla's fate, etc.

4. Create an original storyline without resorting to amnesia or flashbacks, as per LA insistence

5. Create a "darker" storyline, as per LA. What they meant by "darker" is anybody's guess, but I take it to mean the creation of more conflicted characters.

6. Create 3d more realistic characters. That is, the K2 writer went to great pains in creating characters where choices were not always obvious to avoid stereo-typing. Otherwise the characters are too simplistic: if you're LS always do good things or DS the opposite. In real life many decisions, of course, contain varying degrees of both. To keep the game viable for the long term, he had to add some depth.

7. Create LS and DS paths. To realize economies, the LS/DS paths had to have the same milestones reached by different methods. Otherwise, the writer would have to create two completely different games. This would not only double the work but possibly create more problems for K3.

8. Create M/F paths. While most of problems could be solved by switching pronouns, the romance angle would have to be completely different, although in one of the dev's interviews, they allude to much debate about allowing for girl-girl romance.

9. Keep the ending open enough to allow for K3. In fact, anticipation of K3 must have had a significant impact on the writer who must have realized that not only would they have to deal with the plot constraints set down by K1 but also anything he did in K2 thereby compounding the problem he himself faced.

10. Balance the story with the additional "influence" system in addition to the other dialogue variables of Awarenes, Persuade, Lie, etc. wherein the other characters take on the characteristics of the influence.

 

Actually, when you consider all these factors, it's a wonder the plot came out as well as it did for as long as it did. I can't conceive of how to keep track of all these variables, writing all those dialogue branches keeping things consistent according to choices--truly a gargantuan feat worthy of Faulkner or Balzac himself!

[SteveThaiBinh]

It's difficult to agree objective criteria for defining 'good' and 'bad' writing, even though most people believe that good and bad writing do exist. Like many people on these boards, I found the ending of Kotor 2 unsatisfying, and like many people, I'm struggling to pinpoint exactly why that was, in the hope that Obsidian might be able to take away something useful from our comments.

 

I think there is a tendency to compare Kotor 2, more than other computer games, with movies. That's unfair, because a computer game has a non-linear structure, and the writer cannot control how you progress through the story. But it's also understandable, for two reasons. Firstly, the game takes place in the Star Wars universe, a universe that was defined by movies, and we always have the movies in the back of our minds when we play. Secondly, the game itself sets out to create the 'feel' of a movie, by having strong character development, using voice actors for all of the dialogue, using small 'scene-setting' movies in the game, and so on. All of these are designed to enhance the gaming experience, and succeed very well, but they may have the unintended consequence that players judge the experience on movie terms.

 

I remember the movie 'Little Shop of Horrors' also had a famous 'cut ending'. In the original stage musical, the main characters were killed near the end, the alien plants conquered the world and the audiences loved it. When they made it into a film and tested it on focus groups, people hated the fact that these characters they loved just died: the cinema gives a more intimate experience than the theatre. The director and actors were recalled to shoot an alternative, 'happy' ending. So audience expectations can vary according to genre, and as some computer games move into a grey area between two genres, this can become a problem for writers.

 

Obsidian have said that they don't have any dedicated writers: all their designers need to have this skill. Even if a company of Obsidian's size had the resources to hire such a writer, do specialists in non-linear writing exist? The art of constructing a non-linear plot is a relatively new one, and when conventional writers turn their hand to it, the results can be very hit and miss (think of Syberias 1 and 2). Incidentally, my first experience of reading non-linear literature was struggling through Cortazar's Rayuela at university, and it was not the most satisfying or enjoyable experience of my life.

 

Specifically about Kotor 2's ending, for me they just changed the style of the game too much. Too combat-centred, without the interaction between characters or the humour that were real strengths of the game until then. I felt something similar playing Gabriel Knight 3: the game proper was based around a group of interesting characters, then suddenly at the end you have these bizarre, out-of-place puzzles (giant chessboards, pulling secret levers etc.) that just didn't fit the overall atmosphere of the game. If there is a convention that the last section of an RPG should involve hacking through wave after wave of opponents to reach and kill the 'final boss', then maybe that's a convention that could be challenged.

[The Great Phantom]

Yeah, there was no secret puzzles throughout the game like in Kotor I.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Specifically about Kotor 2's ending, for me they just changed the style of the game too much.  Too combat-centred, without the interaction between characters or the humour that were real strengths of the game until then.  I felt something similar playing Gabriel Knight 3: the game proper was based around a group of interesting characters, then suddenly at the end you have these bizarre, out-of-place puzzles (giant chessboards, pulling secret levers etc.) that just didn't fit the overall atmosphere of the game.  If there is a convention that the last section of an RPG should involve hacking through wave after wave of opponents to reach and kill the 'final boss', then maybe that's a convention that could be challenged.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's the same as KOTORs race through the Star Forge more or less.

 

Perhaps it should, but I doubt you will find anyone to do so in a mainstream product.

 

I know that talking the bad guy to defeat in PST felt totally anticlimactic, but some people liked it.

[tmp]

Kreia was annoying too. And like someone already said, I can give someone 5 credits. Who cares?! I wish you could kick people off your ship...

 

Why do people keep bringing that 5 credits thing like it's some sort of valid argument against Kreia..? Thought it made perfect sense in the given context, as long as you have some basic attention span.

 

* the 5 credits lesson: even the tiniest actions may cause ripples that will affect things in ways way stronger than the action itself, and in direction often unintended.

 

* the Nar Shadaa 'force streams' lesson which you get soon after: it's possible to cause destruction on incredible scale without having excessive brute force to match it... all you need is to know where to hit.

 

* at this point you already know (or learn very soon after) about destruction of the planet of the force-sensitives, and that your character was involved/responsible for something on similar scale.

 

These are three puzzle pieces, and when you learn them and they fall together it's sort of a revelation moment. Not only you realize that --just like that 5 credits-- whatever you'd done at M5 might have side effects much greater than "just" destruction of life on planetary scale, and perhaps that's what affected you... but also, that if someone applied this kind of push to the "right" spot, they'd be able to bring the whole house down, so to speak. And seeing what the 'bad guys' are doing, perhaps that's exactly what they're after... they're looking for that exact point to hit.

 

Kreia is basically telling you so early in the game what *you* have done and what the master plan is, without spelling it out for you: "Grab on something and hold firm, because thanks to you the force is going buh-bye." ... "5 credits, who cares?!" indeed. :s

[The Great Phantom]

I think that tmp is right. It was basically Kreia spelling out her master plan, assuming that the Exile would actually be smart enough to pick up on it... I guess most people weren't...

[kbned]

Kbned The educated opinion stopped when he said that everyone that don't agree with him are idiots.and your comparsion with the review of the code by a programmer is totally out of place and just a comparsion that try to give you credits why?because generally a non programmer doesn't know anything about code, if i speak you in a language you don't know i can't ask you to understand me...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

its an exaggerated analogy, i used it so i would get through even to the thickest of people since thats what i seemed to be dealing with. if you looked at code as a non programmer you could understand the words since they are all in plain english and somewhat understand what going on but you cant say if it is written well because it is not something you know well. you can use it with any profession and their work if it makes you feel better.

No. The opinion on the story's quality has nothing to do with the ability to craft a good story. There are no better or worse opinions. And if you will take another's opinion on a subjective matter over your own just because he has more credentials than you do, then you are just an idiot.

then why do you give me your opinion of me? you obviously think higher of your opinion than mine implying them unequal. while its true we strive to be equal, a genius has the same one vote an inbred drunk has, we are most definitely not equal. you sir are a moron, not equal to me or my opinion.

 

its good that you guys got this thread back on topic after it was hijacked by a bunch of forum trolls. i dont mean this post to take it off track though it'd probably go that way again once those trolls get back to working this thread anyway.

[Haitoku]

2) Most of The Party Members Have No Motivation to Join You and Vice Versa

 

 

Well, A lot of this is explained through.

 

 

<<<< MAJOR SPOILER ALERT >>>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot are explained right before you turn them into Jedi. I should also mention these are from light side point of few. Imagine the dark side versions are just the exile abusing the force bond ^_^. I always believe that the exiles special power was different depending on your side... dark to control, light to inspire. But thats just my opinion. :D

 

When you talk to Atton about his past, towards the very end (right before you can make him a jedi), He tells you about the Women who let him feel the force (right before he killed her). He also tells you that Revan was taking people to a special place to "break" those who were force sensitive. Atto realized that once the sith found out about him, they would take him there... and there would be no turning back. So he left the sith. He always considered what the jedi had done for him a waste... Until he meets the Exile on the Mining station. He believes this is the reason the jedi saved him, so he could help the exile.

 

Like Atton, Bao-dur explains his reasons before becoming a Jedi aswell. He thinks about what he did on Malachor (spelled wrong probably) a lot... as he explains in several conversations you have with. Before you turn him into a Jedi he tells you, that with you (the exile) he feels he might be able to make a difference, and maybe, just maybe he will be able to gain redemption.

 

Mira... Well, to be honest... I never did quiet understand anything about her. I didn't like the character very much, so I kinda ignored her ^^. But she does mention, that she no longer wants to feel alone. She is the most reluctant to become a jedi, but the exile reasures her that if she becomes one, she will never be alone.

 

Visas. Well, other then showing her complete kindness after defeating her. She tells you that there is a greatness in the exile, something that does not come from the force, but from who he is. She also seeks to understand (like krea, and the jedi masters) how the exile managed to live without the force. She describes living without the force as... "being abondoned by life itself..." And, towards the very end, she says she is in love with the exile. Because the both of them, have been horribly scared from so many deaths happening around them. Also, that in the exile, she sees that that living without the force, might not be as horrible as everyone thinks.

 

As for Handmaiden, I didn't use her too much. Her reasons were the most unclear to me. She has a lot of respect for the exile, despite what Atris had told her about him. As you defeat her in the duals, she begins to question the exile (about the force). And as you gain influence to her, you find out that her Mother was a Jedi Knight. As far as I can tell.... She wants to learn the way so the jedi... I really didn't pay much attention, so I can't offer any more info ; ;

- Also didn't atris send her to spy on the exile? or did i just missunderstand?

 

HK-47 Likes to fight. He also needs you to hunt down the HK clones, though this was cut.

 

T3-M4. This is a special droid. Even Bao-Dur mentions how he acts strangely, even for a droid... He also lies... To help his friends ofcourse . It's very possible that Carth or Bastilla sent the droid to help the exile. Carth known about the exiles presents from the very begining, so it's possible thats why t3 is onboard.

 

And now Kreia... Unlike what a lot of you think... I don't believe she is evil, and I didn't see her as the obvious sith lord. Would you not trust someone who teaches you? Protects you? Shows you the path to your destiny? Kreia wanted to understand how the exile lived without the force. As she metions, the Jedi Masters could never accept that fact, because them to them, living without the force is death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

<<<< END SPOILERS >>>>

[kbned]

Why do people keep bringing that 5 credits thing like it's some sort of valid argument against Kreia..? Thought it made perfect sense in the given context, as long as you have some basic attention span.

 

* the 5 credits lesson: even the tiniest actions may cause ripples that will affect things in ways way stronger than the action itself, and in direction often unintended.

 

* the Nar Shadaa 'force streams' lesson which you get soon after: it's possible to cause destruction on incredible scale without having excessive brute force to match it... all you need is to know where to hit.

 

* at this point you already know (or learn very soon after) about destruction of the planet of the force-sensitives, and that your character was involved/responsible for something on similar scale.

 

These are three puzzle pieces, and when you learn them and they fall together it's sort of a revelation moment. Not only you realize that --just like that 5 credits-- whatever you'd done at M5 might have side effects much greater than "just" destruction of life on planetary scale, and perhaps that's what affected you... but also, that if someone applied this kind of push to the "right" spot, they'd be able to bring the whole house down, so to speak. And seeing what the 'bad guys' are doing, perhaps that's exactly what they're after... they're looking for that exact point to hit.

 

Kreia is basically telling you so early in the game what *you* have done and what the master plan is, without spelling it out for you: "Grab on something and hold firm, because thanks to you the force is going buh-bye." ... "5 credits, who cares?!" indeed. :s

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your character is not responsible for what happened at m5, revan was. he meant it to be a brutal fight where a lot of people especially those who wouldnt follow him if he went sith died. your character didnt destroy that world the way nihlus did that other planet. the exile was only a lesson on how to create wounds in the force. your character already went through the acadamy, he doesnt need lessons like this from kriea. the lesson is not valid because she says it is the exiles fault for giving the bum credits he didnt earn. she was fine giving credits to the guy who gave information in return. the problem with the lesson is that while the mugger might have stolen the exile's credits from the bum, the mugger doesnt care who the credits came from or if they are earned. he'd probably have killed the other bum too if he came out.

 

the actual somewhat worthwhile lesson though is that you weaken that bum by taking care of his problems for him. normally he would gain strength by resolving the problem himself but relying on the exiles strength isnt going to help him in the long run. the reason i say somewhat is because you have no way of knowing if giving those credits helps you get a bonus quest or some kind of item and when role playing a light side character it's only natural to give someone in need some credits or help them earn some. the dialog was somewhat limited here, it was either "yes, here are 5 creds" or "get out of my face or i will kill you".

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

when role playing a light side character it's only natural to give someone in need some credits or help them earn some.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True but what Kreia is pointing out is that you good deed may not in fact have a good outcome.

 

Because you gave something to someone who didnt have the strength to keep it , all you did was made them a victim.

 

The big lesson is that small events in the right place can have a huge overall impact on the galaxy. Just like a diamond is impossible to crush, but apply a blow at the right point and it will shatter. Apply a series of blows in the right place and the overall result is a shiny cut stone.

[tmp]

your character is not responsible for what happened at m5, revan was. he meant it to be a brutal fight where a lot of people especially those who wouldnt follow him if he went sith died.

Mhm Revan is mentioned specifically as not present during the battle, due to getting delayed along with part of forces... possibly on purpose but that's not really the point. The point is, it's your character that makes the final decision to spring the trap and as such responsible for it. It might've been Revan's manioulation that put them in that spot, but the decision itself was 'yours' nonetheless. To try to shift the blame on someone else would be a 'victim of society' cop-out imo.

 

your character didnt destroy that world the way nihlus did that other planet. the exile was only a lesson on how to create wounds in the force.

Quite correct, but there's large similarity here; the actions of your character caused simultaneous deaths of many people attuned to the force. The actions of Nihilus in a way did exactly the same -- 'hurt' the force by striking at population in close touch with it. (which btw i don't think was Nihilus' intention, he's just a guy blinded by his hunger and manipulated by Kreia all along... just like she lured him eventually near Telos by actions of another of her pawns)

 

your character already went through the acadamy, he doesnt need lessons like this from kriea.

 

Ahh but the very point Kreia is making throughout the whole game is, how one-sided and often wrong the teachings one gets from the Jedi academy can be... isn't it? To say you don't need to listen to others because you already went through academy is exactly the kind of conceit that's mentioned frequently as the weak point of the Jedi order, and a reason of their fall during the Jedi wars...

 

the lesson is not valid because she says it is the exiles fault for giving the bum credits he didnt earn.

 

I don't remember the exact wording, but iirc what she says is something along lines of "And just what do you think you achieved by doing that?" She isn't really 'faulting' you for helping out the bum. If anything, she disapproves apparent lack of forethought on your part -- she wants you to recognize there's no such thing as 'simple actions' and you shouldn't ever do things without consideration how that might affect the big picture. Which again is something that the dumbed down version of the 'Light Side' with its "See someone in need, do their errands for them, don't ever think, that's the *right* way" attitude is clearly lacking.

[The Great Phantom]

2) Most of The Party Members Have No Motivation to Join You and Vice Versa

 

 

Well, A lot of this is explained through.

 

 

<<<< MAJOR SPOILER ALERT >>>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot are explained right before you turn them into Jedi. I should also mention these are from light side point of few. Imagine the dark side versions are just the exile abusing the force bond ^_^. I always believe that the exiles special power was different depending on your side... dark to control, light to inspire. But thats just my opinion. :D

 

When you talk to Atton about his past, towards the very end (right before you can make him a jedi), He tells you about the Women who let him feel the force (right before he killed her). He also tells you that Revan was taking people to a special place to "break" those who were force sensitive. Atto realized that once the sith found out about him, they would take him there... and there would be no turning back. So he left the sith. He always considered what the jedi had done for him a waste... Until he meets the Exile on the Mining station. He believes this is the reason the jedi saved him, so he could help the exile.

 

Like Atton, Bao-dur explains his reasons before becoming a Jedi aswell. He thinks about what he did on Malachor (spelled wrong probably) a lot... as he explains in several conversations you have with. Before you turn him into a Jedi he tells you, that with you (the exile) he feels he might be able to make a difference, and maybe, just maybe he will be able to gain redemption.

 

Mira... Well, to be honest... I never did quiet understand anything about her. I didn't like the character very much, so I kinda ignored her ^^. But she does mention, that she no longer wants to feel alone. She is the most reluctant to become a jedi, but the exile reasures her that if she becomes one, she will never be alone.

 

Visas. Well, other then showing her complete kindness after defeating her. She tells you that there is a greatness in the exile, something that does not come from the force, but from who he is. She also seeks to understand (like krea, and the jedi masters) how the exile managed to live without the force. She describes living without the force as... "being abondoned by life itself..." And, towards the very end, she says she is in love with the exile. Because the both of them, have been horribly scared from so many deaths happening around them. Also, that in the exile, she sees that that living without the force, might not be as horrible as everyone thinks.

 

As for Handmaiden, I didn't use her too much. Her reasons were the most unclear to me. She has a lot of respect for the exile, despite what Atris had told her about him. As you defeat her in the duals, she begins to question the exile (about the force). And as you gain influence to her, you find out that her Mother was a Jedi Knight. As far as I can tell.... She wants to learn the way so the jedi... I really didn't pay much attention, so I can't offer any more info ; ;

- Also didn't atris send her to spy on the exile? or did i just missunderstand?

 

HK-47 Likes to fight. He also needs you to hunt down the HK clones, though this was cut.

 

T3-M4. This is a special droid. Even Bao-Dur mentions how he acts strangely, even for a droid... He also lies... To help his friends ofcourse . It's very possible that Carth or Bastilla sent the droid to help the exile. Carth known about the exiles presents from the very begining, so it's possible thats why t3 is onboard.

 

And now Kreia... Unlike what a lot of you think... I don't believe she is evil, and I didn't see her as the obvious sith lord. Would you not trust someone who teaches you? Protects you? Shows you the path to your destiny? Kreia wanted to understand how the exile lived without the force. As she metions, the Jedi Masters could never accept that fact, because them to them, living without the force is death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

<<<< END SPOILERS >>>>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Once again, people fill in the details I was too lazy to type out. I will elaborate on the Handmaiden and Kreia for you.

 

The Handmaiden was the daughter of and Echani warrior 'king' and his affair with a Jedi woman. That is why she is different from her sisters. She joins the Exile for many reasons: She sees in the Exile what she saw in her father after the Mandalorian Wars, and she is curious. She wants to preserve the Jedi teachings, and the Exile can teach her. She also is obviously attracted to the Exile, but Force Bonds may help this. At least with Visas, she assures you that it is her choice to follow you. The Handmaiden only assures you that it is her choice that she breaks her oath and becomes a Jedi, not that she follows you ENTIRELY out of her own will.

 

Kreia is more of a Dark Jedi Witch. She does not follow the traditional Sith search for power, but is more cautious and manipulative. Her goal is not power, but the Death of the Force, and all that feel it. This would end up disastrous, and in the end, suicidal. She is odd... She wants to destroy the Force because of the fact that it is 'controlling' people, and causing their deaths. BUT: Handmaiden and Visas tell you, when asked, that there is ALWAYS choice. (Underline the ALWAYS).

In the end, Kreia is technically insane. She may have started off right, and trying to demonstrate the fact that the Jedi Council prevents people from being Human, which both the Exile and Revan comment on at one point or another.

 

I think that the point of Malachor V was, in the end, served. Probably a little too well, in fact. It created Echoes, and all affected by it did as well. It may be Kreia's fault if the 'True Sith' decide to attack, because of the massive beacon she helped create. We'll just have to wait to find out, won't we? <_<

[The Great Phantom]

your character is not responsible for what happened at m5, revan was. he meant it to be a brutal fight where a lot of people especially those who wouldnt follow him if he went sith died.

Mhm Revan is mentioned specifically as not present during the battle, due to getting delayed along with part of forces... possibly on purpose but that's not really the point. The point is, it's your character that makes the final decision to spring the trap and as such responsible for it. It might've been Revan's manioulation that put them in that spot, but the decision itself was 'yours' nonetheless. To try to shift the blame on someone else would be a 'victim of society' cop-out imo.

 

your character didnt destroy that world the way nihlus did that other planet. the exile was only a lesson on how to create wounds in the force.

Quite correct, but there's large similarity here; the actions of your character caused simultaneous deaths of many people attuned to the force. The actions of Nihilus in a way did exactly the same -- 'hurt' the force by striking at population in close touch with it. (which btw i don't think was Nihilus' intention, he's just a guy blinded by his hunger and manipulated by Kreia all along... just like she lured him eventually near Telos by actions of another of her pawns)

 

your character already went through the acadamy, he doesnt need lessons like this from kriea.

 

Ahh but the very point Kreia is making throughout the whole game is, how one-sided and often wrong the teachings one gets from the Jedi academy can be... isn't it? To say you don't need to listen to others because you already went through academy is exactly the kind of conceit that's mentioned frequently as the weak point of the Jedi order, and a reason of their fall during the Jedi wars...

 

the lesson is not valid because she says it is the exiles fault for giving the bum credits he didnt earn.

 

I don't remember the exact wording, but iirc what she says is something along lines of "And just what do you think you achieved by doing that?" She isn't really 'faulting' you for helping out the bum. If anything, she disapproves apparent lack of forethought on your part -- she wants you to recognize there's no such thing as 'simple actions' and you shouldn't ever do things without consideration how that might affect the big picture. Which again is something that the dumbed down version of the 'Light Side' with its "See someone in need, do their errands for them, don't ever think, that's the *right* way" attitude is clearly lacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kreia's whole purpose is to create echoes. Perhaps by doing the 'right thing' you are conflicting with her plan, which can't be all that bad. Personally, most things that Kreia tells you not to do, are worth doing to try and delay the end result of her Betrayal.

[Gromnir]

a couple of quick observations

[Zilod]

Why do people keep bringing that 5 credits thing like it's some sort of valid argument against Kreia..? Thought it made perfect sense in the given context, as long as you have some basic attention span.

 

* the 5 credits lesson: even the tiniest actions may cause ripples that will affect things in ways way stronger than the action itself, and in direction often unintended.

 

* the Nar Shadaa 'force streams' lesson which you get soon after: it's possible to cause destruction on incredible scale without having excessive brute force to match it... all you need is to know where to hit.

 

* at this point you already know (or learn very soon after) about destruction of the planet of the force-sensitives, and that your character was involved/responsible for something on similar scale.

 

These are three puzzle pieces, and when you learn them and they fall together it's sort of a revelation moment. Not only you realize that --just like that 5 credits-- whatever you'd done at M5 might have side effects much greater than "just" destruction of life on planetary scale, and perhaps that's what affected you... but also, that if someone applied this kind of push to the "right" spot, they'd be able to bring the whole house down, so to speak. And seeing what the 'bad guys' are doing, perhaps that's exactly what they're after... they're looking for that exact point to hit.

 

Kreia is basically telling you so early in the game what *you* have done and what the master plan is, without spelling it out for you: "Grab on something and hold firm, because thanks to you the force is going buh-bye." ... "5 credits, who cares?!" indeed. :s

your character is not responsible for what happened at m5, revan was. he meant it to be a brutal fight where a lot of people especially those who wouldnt follow him if he went sith died. your character didnt destroy that world the way nihlus did that other planet. the exile was only a lesson on how to create wounds in the force.

 

The wound of the force is also Nihilus (and probably other sith lords) that killed all the jedi and will consume the galaxy if not stopped.

And as Kreia tells you at dantooine, you are the one who created Nihilus...

she says something like...

 

your gift to the galaxy was the destruction... and again

the sith lords learnt their lession from you, you taught them how to estabilish bound to drain the livings

 

if the Exile had not recided his bound with the force nothing of this had happened...

the galaxy will be full (ehm maybe not too full) of jedis, the miraluka will be happy in her world and probably the republic will be in a bit better situation (due to the jedi support).

 

Also the Exile probably will be dead at the time of TSL and the force will not be "in danger".

 

Kreia is the character that drive the story, her cents can be really usefull to understand what is happening or at least to understand her motivations and who you are, that in the end is the final goal of the character.

 

 

 

note for kbned, plz when you quote put the name and the contest of the quote, in your other post it seem that i'm telling you are an idiot.

[Drakron]

There are errors over Malachor V.

 

HK-47 says its was Revan plan to get rid of the ones that would not follow him as a Sith but I dont think HK-47 knows that because on his own words he was build after it and it makes no sense Malachor V being the end of the Mandalorian Wars since HK-47 was captured by Mandalorians and sent to kill Mandalore, since it goes from Mandalore that Revan killed to Canderous Mandalore so he have to been captured during the Mandalorian wars and so before Malachor V.

 

So its safe to disreguard HK-47, my guess he is simply guessing what happened due to damage or because he wants to paint his idea of Revan.

 

What I can guess from Malachor V is that Revan used it as a way to divert Mandaloran forces away from Mandalore (it have to be, KotOR said it ended at Mandalore) and so he used the forces he had less trust on since he needed all he had to attack the Mandalorian homeworld.

 

Of course he had no intention of helping then, Malachor V was the end of the war because it was the last battle, I can guess as Mandalor was captured and Mandalore killed by Revan the battle of Malachor V was still and not going well to the Republic.

[Zilod]

Mira... Well, to be honest... I never did quiet understand anything about her.  I didn't like the character very much, so I kinda ignored her ^^.  But she does mention, that she no longer wants to feel alone.  She is the most reluctant to become a jedi, but the exile reasures her that if she becomes one, she will never be alone.

Yes Mira in the beginning have not strong motivation, but there are some...

 

The biker jedi, who is her friend, ask her to protect you

also consider that you risked your life to save her and doing that you where captured.

 

I think for these reason Mira got "attached" to the Exile and when she says something like (i go with memory)... He is my prey and i keep him, or... you are my prey and i will not let other hunters to harm you, can be indicative of that.

 

Consider even that you can turn Mira into a jedi in the first dialogue (as said in a previous post), so the first time you meet her...

If you do that then she will feel complete and no more vulnerable and will see you as her master. (is also the only char that i remember thanks you for turning her a jedi).

 

 

As for Handmaiden, I didn't use her too much.  Her reasons were the most unclear to me.  She has a lot of respect for the exile, despite what Atris had told her about him.  As you defeat her in the duals, she begins to question the exile (about the force).  And as you gain influence to her, you find out that her Mother was a Jedi Knight.  As far as I can tell.... She wants to learn the way so the jedi...  I really didn't pay much attention, so I can't offer any more info ; ; 

- Also didn't atris send her to spy on the exile? or did i just missunderstand?

The Handmaiden at the beginnin is on a mission for Atris, is Atris that "order" her to follow you