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Thank you for that crazy long quote.

 

Actually, if you'd look, the vast majority of it is my own writing--with a few selected one-lined quotes.

 

-------

 

And Romana, I'm impressed with your knowledge of history. I shall come to you in times of need.

 

Certainly, though I do admit that my mastery is limited to Classical Roma and Napoleonic France. I do know a fair bit about most other history.

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Then Roma, I suggest that we form an impeneratable force of historical knowledge on this thread.

 

Though I would dispute your claim that that the idea of Emperor never changed. While the concept conveyed by Augustus was very similar to your definition, I would find it very difficult to argue that the concept of what is effectively rule by a "First Citizen," remains throughout the Roman Empire. For we do see a concerted attempt by men like Nero, and very specifically by Diocletion, to illustrate the differences and importance of the Imperator in regard to the common people.

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Then Roma, I suggest that we form an impeneratable force of historical knowledge on this thread.

 

Though I would dispute your claim that that the idea of Emperor never changed.  While the concept conveyed by Augustus was very similar to your definition, I would find it very difficult to argue that the concept of what is effectively rule by a "First Citizen," remains throughout the Roman Empire.  For we do see a concerted attempt by men like Nero, and very specifically by Diocletion, to illustrate the differences and importance of the Imperator in regard to the common people.

 

 

Nero still very much maintained the constitutional pretense of the Principate, and even autocrats such as Commodus.

 

By the time of Diocletian, the Imperium Romanum no longer existed--it was known as Romania, and Roma was no longer the capital: Ravenna was. It wasn't a Roman Empire, despite what they deluded themselves into thinking. I referred to Classical Roma during my post.

 

Though you would be correct in your characterization of Diocletian, whose Tetrarchy permanently laid the monarchical structure bare for all to see and began the government which was known as the Dominate.

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Atomic Space Vixen: Oh, absolutely. I understand a response in kind.

 

E.g.

 

User A posts fallacy X.

 

I say not X, Y.

 

However, even if it's not so and you were right, Z is also true, so X isn't accurate.

 

[...]

 

Yeah, I do that on occasion. It's a useful rhetorical technique. It actually gets through to them more than the logic and facts do, though we still include those for the benefit of others.

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I think Revans sex is best to be left un-explored and leave it up to the player to see what sex Revan is either male or female.leave the sex of Revan in the players imagination.

 

why should there be an offical sex for Revan?

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well, since I started it, I'll try to close it. looking at this post I see it's getting nowhere with all the "men against women" quarrels. I'm proposing to close this issue, because I think there is nothing more we can say, except what is already said (or perhaps another lecture by Roma

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I'm sure others have said it, but since BioWare left the gender of Revan and The Exile open, I'm SURE it matters not one bit whether or not they are specifically one or the other. I played Revan as light side female, and currently playing the Exile as a light side female (who for some reason is much more kick-butt than Revan was..), and it's working just fine for me. There actually is something very "Mists of Avalon"ish about having powerful female Jedi doing stuff, instead of standing around waiting to be saved.

 

 

Just a thought.

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I'm sure someone has already said this but..

 

When you talk to Atton in the cell you set the parameters for who Revan was and which side they chose.

 

Then througout the game the scenes will change.

 

For example if you choose DS/Female then you will have admiral Cede rather than Admiral Onasi (as Carth would be dead in that particular story arc).

 

Likewise if you have revan as DS the sith holicron will have a message from Bastila where as if you choose LS then the holocron is destroyed when you find it.

 

You also get a variety of different scenes with T3 when you fool around with his memory core depending on which particular choices you made with Atton.

 

It's clever and it's quite subtle so it's not suprising that some people missed it.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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As I've also said recently on the Bioware boards, I think it would be a mistake for LucasArts to come down definitively on either side of the issue of Revan's gender (and the Exile's as well, for that matter). We all have a certain picture of Revan in our heads, based off our own personal experiences playing the game. For me, Revan will always be a LS female, as will the Exile. For many of you, that's not the case. If the almighty Lucas were to come down and tell me that hey, guess what, Revan was really a DS male, I'd be pretty annoyed, and would probably ignore all bits of canon that claimed such nonsense. :wub: Truly, though, I think that to officially decide the genders and alignments of these characters risks alienating a lot of fans. I for one, was thrilled to learn in KOTOR1 that I was in fact a Sith Lord. Seems to me like it was about darn time a lady got to wield some major dark power. So would I be upset if LucasArts took that away from me? Yeah, I really would, and I can't imagine I'm the only one who feels that way (regardless of how you see Revan).

 

As far as the romance thing goes, I personally love Carth, and think that the Carth-Revan love story is wonderful and fascinating and just all-around good stuff. I am, however, a sucker for the troubled, brooding type.

 

Regarding this whole argument about a female Revan not making sense, I don't really have much to add. The Irish queen someone mentioned whose name they did not know was Grace O'Malley, known as the "Pirate Queen of Ireland," and one of my personal heroes. I'm not going to give you her life story here (unless you really want me too), but she was a strong leader, who commanded a fleet of pirate ships, fought alongside her men, earned the respect of Queen Elizabeth (despite the fact that she was fighting for Ireland's independence)... Madame Ch'ing, a Chinese woman, commanded the largest fleet of pirate ships in history. There is some evidence that the legendary pirate Bartholomew Roberts may have in fact been a woman. (Yes, my personal area of historical expertise is regarding pirates, particularly female ones.) I know Bodicea has already been brought up, but despite the fact that she did not ultimately win her war, she was a strong female leader nonetheless. Yes, she was wiped out when the trained military was brought in, but that's hardly suprising. They had superior training and tactics, superior weaponry no doubt; it doesn't make Bodicea's early victories mean any less. Jeanne D'Arc (known to the western world as Joan of Arc) was a truly amazing woman. Given what she accomplished in her own time, think what a leader she could have been had she lived today, less fettered by the societal (and religious) restrictions on women. There are many, many more such women in history; unfortunately, the history books leave most of them out. Women have always fought, though often they had to disguise themselves as men to do it.

 

Doh, I guess I lied when I said I didn't have much more to add. However, I will go ahead and leave it at that. I shouldn't have let myself get drawn into this at all, but I can't ever seem to keep my mouth shut (or my typing fingers still, in this case) about this sort of crap.

 

Anyhoo, that's a bit more than my two-cents worth. :blink:

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