DemonKing Posted February 16, 2004 Posted February 16, 2004 Demonking, I believe one of, if not the largest factor, is the new content guidelines which WotC has set for D&D titles. Its not the sole reason, but a major factor. Yeah - I agree. Now Hasbro owns the licence we might as well pay Barbie dress-ups because that's about as controversial as D&D games can be these days.
gojira Posted February 17, 2004 Posted February 17, 2004 Basically playing a role which allows the player total freedom to do as they please. That must be the oddest RPG definition that I have ever heard, and I have heard some strange ones. I do realize that action games generally limit your choices to where to go and who to kill, and in a very limited number of ways, but even the most complex and immersive CRPGs to date limit your options to specifically those choices that the designers foresaw, which amounts to not all that much more than your choice of who to kill or talk to (and any resulting dialogue choices). I guess this limiting aspect of todays game design is what motivates Bethesda, MMORPG devs, and other fans of so called "open-ended" play, but solving it will require either some huge advances in how games are played or a truly massive project to produce a game world where any possible desire of any possible gamer has been thought of and coded into the game. At the moment this is just science fiction. Bethesda did randomize dungeons in Daggerfall and even Arena I think, but real life is not actually a random collection of the same features. So that just created monotony as opposed to an immersive real world kind of experience. A game that incorporates some kind of wetware neural network AI to literally change game/story features as you play to accomodate infinite possibilities would be a wonderful advance, but it hasn't happened yet. I guess the closest thing would be a DM. Maybe that's what you're really saying here: that an RPG without a live human DM is not really an RPG at all. If that is the case, then I guess NWN would be the only computer game in history to qualify as an RPG. AFAIK it is the only "CRPG" to make use of live DMs. OTOH, most of the actions that a DM might allow would not be reflected in the computer displayed game world. It only achieves this freedom through the "cheat" of incorporating PnP play into a computer game, so these actions will only occur in the imagination of the players just as in PnP.
Hell Kitty Posted February 17, 2004 Posted February 17, 2004 A.I.M. Developer: SkyRiver Studios Platform: PC Setting: Sci-Fi Action Bard's Tale Developer: inXile Platform: PC/PS2/XBOX Setting: Fantasy Action Beyond Divinity Developer: Larian Studios Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy Black 9 Developer: Taldren Platform: PC/XBOX Setting: Sci-fi Action Blades of Avernum Developer: Spiderweb Software Platform: PC/MAC Setting: Fantasy The Bloody Magic Developer: Sky Fallen Platform: PC/XBOX Setting: Fantasy Borderzone Developer: Saturn+ Platform: PC Sci-fi/Fantasy (?) Setting: Action Call of Cthulhu Developer: Headfirst Prod. Platform: PC/XBOX Setting: Historical/Horror Action/Adventure First-Person (A sequel, Beyond the Mountains of Madness, is also in production, as well as a PS2 exclusive, Tainted Legacy) Deadlands Developer: Headfirst Prod. Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy/Western Action Dungeon Lords Developer: Heuristic Park Platform: PC/XBOX Setting: Fantasy Action Dungeon Siege II Developer: Gas Powered Games Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy Action Era Developer: Peroxide Entertainment Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy Fable Developer: Big Blue Box Platform: XBOX/PC(?) Setting: Fantasy Action The Fall: Last Days of Gaia Developer: Silver Style Platform: PC Setting: Sci-Fi (Post Apocalypse) Freedom Force vs. The Third Reich Developer: Irrational Games Platform: PC Setting: Historical(WW2)/Comic Goldenland Developer: Burut Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy I of the Dragon Developer: Primal Software Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy Action Inquisitor Developer: Wooden Dragon Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy Jade Empire Developer: BioWare Platform: XBOX Setting: Fantasy (Chinese inspired) Action Jagged Alliance 2: Wildfire Developer: I-Deal Games Platform: PC Setting: Modern Day Tactical JA2 mod turned exapansion Metalheart Developer: Akella Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi (Post Apocalypse) Mythora Developer: Vivid Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi/Fantasy Outcome Developer: Cyberworks Studio Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi (Post Apocalypse) Phase Exodus Developer: Horns and Hoofs Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi (Post Apocalypse) Tactical Power of Law Developer: Mist Land Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi (Cyberpunk) Restricted Area Developer: Master Creating Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi (Cyberpunk) Action The Roots Developer: Tannhauser Gate Platform: PC/XBOX Setting: Fantasy Sacred Developer: Ascaron Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy Action Seal of Evil Developer: Object Software Platform: PC Setting: Ancient China Action Shadowvault Developer: Mayhem Studios Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi (Post Apocalypse) Silent Storm: Sentinels Developer: Nival Platform: PC Setting: Post-WW2 (Sci-fi elements) Tactical Expansion pack for Silent Storm Spacehack Developer: Rebelmind Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi Action S.T.A.L.K.E.R. - Shadow of Chernobyl Developer: GSC Game World Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi (Post Apocalypse) First-Person Star Wolves Developer: X-bow Software Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi Tactical UFO: Alien Invasion Developer: UFOAI Team Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi Tactical Vaishvanara Developer: Menon Interactive Platform: PC Setting: Fantasy (Hindu inspired) Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines Developer: Troika Platform: PC Setting: Modern Day First-Person Wardog Developer: Rebellion Platform: PC Setting: Sci-fi Weird War Developer: Mirage Interactive Platform: PC Setting: WW2 Xenus Developer: Deep Shadows Platform: PC Setting: Modern Day Colombia First-Person I've added more info about each game, if anyone cares. Feel free to add/alter.
LordChaos Posted February 17, 2004 Posted February 17, 2004 http://www.cult.3dpeople.de/galery/galery/...e/monastery.JPG
Revolver Posted February 18, 2004 Posted February 18, 2004 Nice job Kitty... I'd just like to add that the Hindu RPG is tentatively titled Vaishvanara...
Aeon Posted February 18, 2004 Posted February 18, 2004 just looking at the fable forums, it looks like its an xbox exclusive. but the developer is thinking about a PC release. probably much like halo then. and STALKER is an RPG in FPS clothing. think Dues Ex crossed with Half-Life. there is a huge interveiw with GCS in an Australian mag (PC Powerplay if anyone cares), there are subquests, a huge plot, crates ( ), and of course the option to not do the quest at all. i'm too lazy to sum up the article, but it seems to be a FPRPG
Sammael Posted February 18, 2004 Posted February 18, 2004 Games that don't allow for character growth fall short of my RPG definition. There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely.
taks Posted February 18, 2004 Posted February 18, 2004 yeah, games where character growth is entirely dependent on how quick you get with the controls don't count. taks comrade taks... just because.
mkreku Posted February 18, 2004 Posted February 18, 2004 Games that don't allow for character growth fall short of my RPG definition. Games that lack just one of several different RPG criterias, aren't automatically not RPG's. I am sure it'll be possible to role play in STALKER, even though there's no character advancement. Due to my FPS skills I'll be playing the sucky Stalker who gets killed every fifth minute. STALKER has a huge, free world, lots of NPC's with agendas and dialogue trees and a bundle of quests. That is enough for me to classify it as a RPG. But I am sure it's playable as a regular FPS too. Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!
Aeon Posted February 18, 2004 Posted February 18, 2004 hmm, back to that article, it does say that there is "the player character will be customizable, upgradable, and ther -able workds that only exist in computer gaming" but i'd agree with mkreku, if a game has all the other elements of an rpg, simply missing one doesn't stop it from being an RPG,
taks Posted February 19, 2004 Posted February 19, 2004 that one just happens to be one of the most critical... "with rpg elements" is another term used for such games. taks comrade taks... just because.
Iolo Posted February 19, 2004 Posted February 19, 2004 Games that don't allow for character growth fall short of my RPG definition. Games that lack just one of several different RPG criterias, aren't automatically not RPG's. I am sure it'll be possible to role play in STALKER, even though there's no character advancement. Due to my FPS skills I'll be playing the sucky Stalker who gets killed every fifth minute. STALKER has a huge, free world, lots of NPC's with agendas and dialogue trees and a bundle of quests. That is enough for me to classify it as a RPG. But I am sure it's playable as a regular FPS too. If your own reactions or skill with the controls are the deciding factor in combat and other scenarios rather than how the character is defined, then you lose the "Role" in Role Playing Game as now you are just playing the Role of yourself and your abilities which is what Sammael or Taks meant. Probably the most important aspect (I don't look at is as just one of many aspects) as well of RPGs is the ability to develop and grow your character as time goes on so the character's skills can improve. But the definition of an RPG seems to be so vague and misunderstood these days, I guess it doesn't matter. At best, I would consider this game a FPS with RPG elements. Not a big deal. So is Deus Ex 2 and others.
SirGalrim Posted February 19, 2004 Posted February 19, 2004 Hi. I haven't read trough this thread to carefully, but it seems to me you have forgot a game: Might and Magic Tribute Enjoy
Iolo Posted February 19, 2004 Posted February 19, 2004 Hi.I haven't read trough this thread to carefully, but it seems to me you have forgot a game: Might and Magic Tribute Enjoy Sounds like a fan created project, similar to say Era or Ultima 5 Lazarus and others. Am I correct?
Aeon Posted February 19, 2004 Posted February 19, 2004 i doubt we can do anything but take GSCs word that stalker is an RPG, considering that no one outside of the company has actually played the game. demos as GDC and interviews are all that the press and consequently the rest of the gaming community have seen.
Diogo Ribeiro Posted February 19, 2004 Posted February 19, 2004 just looking at the fable forums, it looks like its an xbox exclusive. but the developer is thinking about a PC release. probably much like halo then. and STALKER is an RPG in FPS clothing. think Dues Ex crossed with Half-Life. there is a huge interveiw with GCS in an Australian mag (PC Powerplay if anyone cares), there are subquests, a huge plot, crates ( ), and of course the option to not do the quest at all. i'm too lazy to sum up the article, but it seems to be a FPRPG No, just no. Its a standard FPS with some RPG elements. RPG elements alone don't make a game an RPG. The devs have stated it won't have character skills, or statistics, which are essential to an RPG. They're of the mindset that Doom = RPG.
Torias Posted February 19, 2004 Posted February 19, 2004 maybe if we make a split in the list? "Dedicated RPGs", such as fallout or nwn for example. and "Games with RPG elements", such as silent storm and System Shock for example. I'm sure there'll be some borderline cases, but most games would fit in one ofr the other pretty easily...
SirGalrim Posted February 19, 2004 Posted February 19, 2004 Hi.I haven't read trough this thread to carefully, but it seems to me you have forgot a game: Might and Magic Tribute Enjoy Sounds like a fan created project, similar to say Era or Ultima 5 Lazarus and others. Am I correct? Yup In await for Ubisoft with the next MM, this Tribute will satisfy our MM gaming desire
mkreku Posted February 20, 2004 Posted February 20, 2004 If your own reactions or skill with the controls are the deciding factor in combat and other scenarios rather than how the character is defined, then you lose the "Role" in Role Playing Game as now you are just playing the Role of yourself and your abilities which is what Sammael or Taks meant. Probably the most important aspect (I don't look at is as just one of many aspects) as well of RPGs is the ability to develop and grow your character as time goes on so the character's skills can improve. But the definition of an RPG seems to be so vague and misunderstood these days, I guess it doesn't matter. At best, I would consider this game a FPS with RPG elements. Not a big deal. So is Deus Ex 2 and others. I think the FPS style is the best way of playing an RPG because it allows me to play the game through the character's (that I've created myself, not necessarily by using skils/levels/attributes, but by name and such) eyes. The skills should be directly visible to me at all time (such as bad aiming when low level) but I want to execute all the action myself. To me a game like Planescape: Torment is less of a RPG than STALKER is, because in that game, when you start it up for the first time, you already have a name, a history and a "reputation" within the game world. That makes it impossible to play anyone else than the Nameless One, thus it isn't role playing to me. But you're absolutely right: this isn't a big deal. We'll just play the games we like in whichever fashion suits our tastes. I'm sure I'll be sneaking around STALKER in a cowardly RPG style in a near future anyhow Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish!
Iolo Posted February 20, 2004 Posted February 20, 2004 If your own reactions or skill with the controls are the deciding factor in combat and other scenarios rather than how the character is defined, then you lose the "Role" in Role Playing Game as now you are just playing the Role of yourself and your abilities which is what Sammael or Taks meant.
Aeon Posted February 20, 2004 Posted February 20, 2004 If your own reactions or skill with the controls are the deciding factor in combat and other scenarios rather than how the character is defined, then you lose the "Role" in Role Playing Game as now you are just playing the Role of yourself and your abilities which is what Sammael or Taks meant. Probably the most important aspect (I don't look at is as just one of many aspects) as well of RPGs is the ability to develop and grow your character as time goes on so the character's skills can improve. But the definition of an RPG seems to be so vague and misunderstood these days, I guess it doesn't matter. At best, I would consider this game a FPS with RPG elements. Not a big deal. So is Deus Ex 2 and others. I think the FPS style is the best way of playing an RPG because it allows me to play the game through the character's (that I've created myself, not necessarily by using skils/levels/attributes, but by name and such) eyes. The skills should be directly visible to me at all time (such as bad aiming when low level) but I want to execute all the action myself. To me a game like Planescape: Torment is less of a RPG than STALKER is, because in that game, when you start it up for the first time, you already have a name, a history and a "reputation" within the game world. That makes it impossible to play anyone else than the Nameless One, thus it isn't role playing to me. But you're absolutely right: this isn't a big deal. We'll just play the games we like in whichever fashion suits our tastes. I'm sure I'll be sneaking around STALKER in a cowardly RPG style in a near future anyhow For a single character game, a first person perspective isn't bad but even then you can still have attributes and skills that improve over time. Deus Ex 1, Morrowind and I think System Shock 2 had that for instance. Arx Fatalis I think did as well now that I think about. The player's level of skill even though it's based on statistics can also be made visible to you as well (and I think these games did that to a certaine extent). The fact that the history of the Nameless One and the name and model were forced on removed some role playing from the character creation point of view and the background of the character (which is why some people feel it was a bit of an adventure game). However, it still allowed you to create the character's attributes as you pleased as well as determine how you develop the character (including an interesting alignment/faction system) or whether or not you remain as a Fighter or become a Thief or a Mage so it had roleplaying in this sense. In the end, it's whatever makes the game enjoyable for you that's important. I'm probably interested enough by STALKER that if there's a demo I would download it. but character creation isn't a vital part of an RPG. no japanese RPGs have character creation but they are still RPGs. advancement is important, but it can be done in other ways than sloppy aiming at lower levels. i think that a FP view in an RPG could be excellent, we just need a game to showcase it properly.
Shadowstrider Posted February 20, 2004 Author Posted February 20, 2004 but character creation isn't a vital part of an RPG. no japanese RPGs have character creation but they are still RPGs. advancement is important, but it can be done in other ways than sloppy aiming at lower levels. i think that a FP view in an RPG could be excellent, we just need a game to showcase it properly. Just because they're called RPGs doesn't mean they ARE RPGs. Final Fantasy, Xenosaga, etc... aren't RPGs. As good as Xenogears is, it isn't a role-playing game.
Volourn Posted February 20, 2004 Posted February 20, 2004 You mean you don't play a role in those games? My god! that's news to me. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Shadowstrider Posted February 20, 2004 Author Posted February 20, 2004 You mean you don't play a role in those games? My god! that's news to me. OMG YOU'RE RIGHT!!!! SPLINTER CELL IS THE GREATEST RPG EVAR!!!!!!111! Volourn, stop being simpleminded "but da magazines says it is" guy.
Volourn Posted February 20, 2004 Posted February 20, 2004 Huh? The definition of rpg says it so. Super Mario is a 'rpg' going by the most basic definition. You lose again, and your kewl speak as awesome and SEXY as it is doesn't change the fact. I rarely read these "magazines" so even that is a lie so why would I care what they say again?. Stop being simpleminded "My definition is the right one!" guy. Last i checked, there is no real universally accepted definition of role-playing games. Some people *gasp* don't even think PST, KOTOR, or the BG games are rpgs. gO FIGURE Don't worry about labels. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
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