Akari Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 I had a question to the Obsidian programmers (Akari or any other one who knows about it) about the frame rate issue. I would like to know what is the exact technical reason that concerning the graphics the Bioware engine is a little bit slower than "normal". It's remarkable that both the XBox and the PC have been affected likewise. Since it couldn't be completely fixed for the sequel I think it must be a systematical problem? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The framerate issues aren't really related to graphics at all. The problem is caused by all of the other systems throughout the game engine that are running. Creature AI updates, script execution, combat AI, etc. All those things take up CPU time and make it slower for the game engine to complete '1 loop' so that it can render the next frame. Which is why you'll probably find the slowest framerates in combat. The trouble with framerates is a side effect of using what was essentially a PC game engine on a console. PC engines tend to be written with convenience and flexibility in mind. But the side effect of this 'designer friendly' approach is that the game is slower. Data is stored as strings more than binary data, and string compares are rampant throughout the code, which are overly expensive (CPU-wise) operations compared to alternative approaches. Console-specific engines tend to be written a lot tighter. They tend to be far more memory efficient and clockcycle efficient. To solve these problems in KotOR2, we would have to have rewritten a lot of the engine, which the timeline for the project did not allow for. And even still, we made amazing improvements over many of the systems, it's just that we then turned around and pushed the systems harder than they had been pushed before. Early on in the project, we roughly doubled the average framerate of KotOR1, but then added a lot more stuff to the areas and the framerate went back down. We're also loading roughly 2 to 3 times the data per area load that KotOR1 loaded, but we were able to speed the loading process up enough that the load times are roughly equivalent to KotOR1. If we were loading KotOR1 levels with our changes, the load times would have been much faster. Most of the time, we considered KotOR1 the 'as bad as we can let it get' in terms of load times and framerates, then kept adding content to areas until the game slowed down to roughly the KotOR1 performance, figuring that was a safe baseline to operate from. -Akari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSLuke Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 Thanks Akari. And by the light of the moon He prays for their beauty not doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedipodo Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 Thank you Akari for this detailed answer! As a side-effect this should also calm down the people who have been concerned by the IGN review and lost their faith in Obsidian. "Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightcleaver Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 It won't. Just watch. It's a great answer though, akari. The framerate really wasn't THAT much of a problem anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
envida Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 That's good to hear On a sidenote, I guess writing a game engine for a console makes you a better programmer since you can't be so "lazy" with the code you are writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightcleaver Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Or at least it takes longer, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSLuke Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 According to Akari the programmers of games like Doom 3 and HL2 must be really lazy. These games ask for tremendous amounds of CPU power to do even the simplest thing. And by the light of the moon He prays for their beauty not doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedipodo Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Or at least it takes longer, anyway. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, think of all the bits and bytes optimisation... "Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofAnakin Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 According to Akari the programmers of games like Doom 3 and HL2 must be really lazy. These games ask for tremendous amounds of CPU power to do even the simplest thing. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not sure where he said anything even close to that. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSLuke Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 I'm just saying that Doom 3 and HL 2 don't justify the amount of power that they require to run smoothly. Whereas Halo 2 can run on Xbox, which surely is much less powerful than a top notch PC. And by the light of the moon He prays for their beauty not doom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sion67 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Hey Devs Would KOTOR TSL come out for mac any time after or before the PC release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yodaman115 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Will the development team attempt to improve the PC version of TSL based on feedback from players and sources like ign or gamepot? This would seem like an awesome opportunity to address some of the issues ign was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigboy2 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 I had a question to the Obsidian programmers (Akari or any other one who knows about it) about the frame rate issue. I would like to know what is the exact technical reason that concerning the graphics the Bioware engine is a little bit slower than "normal". It's remarkable that both the XBox and the PC have been affected likewise. Since it couldn't be completely fixed for the sequel I think it must be a systematical problem? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The framerate issues aren't really related to graphics at all. The problem is caused by all of the other systems throughout the game engine that are running. Creature AI updates, script execution, combat AI, etc. All those things take up CPU time and make it slower for the game engine to complete '1 loop' so that it can render the next frame. Which is why you'll probably find the slowest framerates in combat. The trouble with framerates is a side effect of using what was essentially a PC game engine on a console. PC engines tend to be written with convenience and flexibility in mind. But the side effect of this 'designer friendly' approach is that the game is slower. Data is stored as strings more than binary data, and string compares are rampant throughout the code, which are overly expensive (CPU-wise) operations compared to alternative approaches. Console-specific engines tend to be written a lot tighter. They tend to be far more memory efficient and clockcycle efficient. To solve these problems in KotOR2, we would have to have rewritten a lot of the engine, which the timeline for the project did not allow for. And even still, we made amazing improvements over many of the systems, it's just that we then turned around and pushed the systems harder than they had been pushed before. Early on in the project, we roughly doubled the average framerate of KotOR1, but then added a lot more stuff to the areas and the framerate went back down. We're also loading roughly 2 to 3 times the data per area load that KotOR1 loaded, but we were able to speed the loading process up enough that the load times are roughly equivalent to KotOR1. If we were loading KotOR1 levels with our changes, the load times would have been much faster. Most of the time, we considered KotOR1 the 'as bad as we can let it get' in terms of load times and framerates, then kept adding content to areas until the game slowed down to roughly the KotOR1 performance, figuring that was a safe baseline to operate from. -Akari <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Basicly all the framrate problems and the loading problems are the same as KOTOR but there is now a lot more stuff in the game and now has more complicated formulas and that you guys kickass. "Your total disregard for the law and human decency both disgusts me and touches my heart. Bless you, sir." "Soilent Green is people. This guy's just a homeless heroin junkie who got in a internet caf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigboy2 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Will the development team attempt to improve the PC version of TSL based on feedback from players and sources like ign or gamepot? This would seem like an awesome opportunity to address some of the issues ign was talking about. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The loading times? If you have a fast PC the game won't take that long to load, like a second or two. Framrate, if you have a fast computer than you'll have next to none. Bugs, Patches. How not every thing comes together in the end, they would have to re-write the story and i'm 99.999999% that they won't because the game is far to late in devolpment to do that. "Your total disregard for the law and human decency both disgusts me and touches my heart. Bless you, sir." "Soilent Green is people. This guy's just a homeless heroin junkie who got in a internet caf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertHawk Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Will the development team attempt to improve the PC version of TSL based on feedback from players and sources like ign or gamepot? This would seem like an awesome opportunity to address some of the issues ign was talking about. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The loading times? If you have a fast PC the game won't take that long to load, like a second or two. Framrate, if you have a fast computer than you'll have next to none. Bugs, Patches. How not every thing comes together in the end, they would have to re-write the story and i'm 99.999999% that they won't because the game is far to late in devolpment to do that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Indeed. My PC is about two years old now, and I'm proud to say can handle almost anything thrown at it. (Though a RAM upgrade is starting to be needed.) From what I gathered the story doesn't need anything, but the bugs do. Fnord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yodaman115 Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 I know that load times won't be a problem, but i was talking about things like the final bosses being rather easy compared to the final battle with Malak. I can't remember everything ign didn't like about it, but there were a couple other things that I think could be addressed before the PC version comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostkant Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Look, if you can run the first KOTOR fine, you can run KOTOR 2 fine. They're basically the same thing when it comes to graphics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_nemisis Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 I have a question, actually two. 1. Is the Star Forge going to be playing any role at all in K2? 2. What are ALL the new colors. I know silver, orange, dark green, dark blue, light green, light blue, and white. But are there any others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigboy2 Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 1. Is the Star Forge going to be playing any role at all in K2? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How the hell would we know? "Your total disregard for the law and human decency both disgusts me and touches my heart. Bless you, sir." "Soilent Green is people. This guy's just a homeless heroin junkie who got in a internet caf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator00 Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 1. Is the Star Forge going to be playing any role at all in K2? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How the hell would we know? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think he's asking us. It's a "Question to Devs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Scientist Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 After KotOR II is finished for the PC, will the team working on it all transfer over to Neverwinter Nights 2, or will they start on a new project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_nemisis Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 1. Is the Star Forge going to be playing any role at all in K2? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How the hell would we know? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, you see, the title says question to the DEVS!!! So, that's why I asked the devs and not you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Jedi Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 would you guys at obsidian really want to do another kotor or do you think it is better to establish yourself with your own franchise i think is the word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khollar Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Any idea when the game will hit stores? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sil Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Is there a specific reasion why the PC version will be released later than the XBox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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