Ukraine Conflict - Those who can win a war well can rarely make a good peace and those who could make a good peace would never have won the war

[Keyrock]

9 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, is pretty small compared to RSA. 

I mean, you can literally name any other country on planet Earth and it will be small compared to Russia.

[Malcador]

Europe's a pretty small continent, recall issues people had with map projections related to that.  But suppose Sweden is a decently sized player on the world stage.

[Keyrock]

I just realized RSA = South Africa, not Russia. 

Yes, South Africa is nearly 3 times the size of Sweden by land area. Still, my point is that Sweden is far from small and defenseless, not to mention that Russia would either have to go by air, sea, or through Finland or Norway to get there. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that both Finland and Norway would object to a bunch of foreign tanks and troops rolling through their land.

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, Keyrock said:

Little? What the **** are you smoking @BruceVC? Sweden is one of the largest countries in Europe. Once upon a time it was one of the most powerful and warlike empires too. Did you get Sweden confused with Luxembourg, or something?

I dont mean geographically small, I mean militarily small 

When was the last  time Sweden was in a  war? Imagine them against the brutality of Russia 

 

Edited January 9 by BruceVC

[Keyrock]

But Russia doesn't share a border with Sweden. They can't just teleport tanks and troops to Sweden, how do you propose Russian troops reach Sweden without crossing a NATO nation's land, waters, or airspace?

[BruceVC]

35 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

But Russia doesn't share a border with Sweden. They can't just teleport tanks and troops to Sweden, how do you propose Russian troops reach Sweden without crossing a NATO nation's land, waters, or airspace?

Are you sure  they cant teleport....how do we know that  for sure? I dont need to tell you how deep the rabbit hole can go 

[Keyrock]

2 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Are you sure  they cant teleport....how do we know that  for sure? I dont need to tell you how deep the rabbit hole can go 

If the Russkies can teleport then we're all ****ed. 

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Are you sure  they cant teleport....how do we know that  for sure? I dont need to tell you how deep the rabbit hole can go 

Teleporting to Kiev sure worked like a charm

Besides it’s usually Sweden that invades Russia and not the other way around 

[Keyrock]

23 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Besides it’s usually Sweden that invades Russia and not the other way around 

As a Pole, I can tell you Sweden whooped up on my motherland several times too. Looooooong before my lifetime, though, so I harbour no ill feelings. In fact, I harbour no ill feeling for the common folk of any country, Russia included. The ruling elite, on the other hand, that's a different story. Granted, I'm not exactly a fan of the ruling elite in Murica either (on the off chance I haven't previously made that perfectly clear), so there's that.

Edited January 9 by Keyrock

[Elerond]

3 hours ago, Keyrock said:

But Russia doesn't share a border with Sweden. They can't just teleport tanks and troops to Sweden, how do you propose Russian troops reach Sweden without crossing a NATO nation's land, waters, or airspace?

Technically Sweden and Russia share maritime border in international waters, meaning that Russian troops can go from Kaliningrad to Sweden without crossing any Nato nation's land, waters or airspace. Also there is international waters from Saint Petersburg to Sweden and also from Atlantic ocean to western side of southern Sweden.

[Keyrock]

I stand corrected. Still, I will maintain that invading Sweden would be a terrible idea and Putin is not that stupid. I don't believe Russia has any sort of historical claim to any lands in Sweden that they could use to "justify" an invasion. Those kinds of claims are flimsy at best, anyway, given that for most places in the world one can point to there have been a dozen different ethnic groups that called that land home at one point. Even with a historical claim, Russia wouldn't attack Sweden in the foreseeable future.

[Mamoulian War]

Does not have Russia some claim on Gotland? If they do, it will be probably as Probably as silly as their claim on Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, or Mongol claim on all of “Russia” behind Ural

[Keyrock]

How sad is it that pretty much the entire 6000 year... The starting point of human civilization is very much in question ever since the discovery of Göbekli Tepe, but that's a topic for a different discussion, I'll just stick with Ancient Sumer as the starting point for the purposes of this conversation. Pretty much the entire 6000 years of human civilization is people taking other peoples' lands for themselves. Sometimes they're "kind" enough to let the previous inhabitants stay, so long as they swear fealty, sometimes the previous population gets the boot, and sometimes they get the axe. At some point it would have been nice to advance beyond that, and there's, of course, lip service to that effect. The reality is nope. Humans ****ing suck.

Edited January 9 by Keyrock

[Gfted1]

9 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

Humans ****ing suck.

Beginning when Cain slew Abel.

[Azdeus]

2 hours ago, Keyrock said:

As a Pole, I can tell you Sweden whooped up on my motherland several times too. Looooooong before my lifetime, though, so I harbour no ill feelings. In fact, I harbour no ill feeling for the common folk of any country, Russia included. The ruling elite, on the other hand, that's a different story. Granted, I'm not exactly a fan of the ruling elite in Murica either (on the off chance I haven't previously made that perfectly clear), so there's that.

We were big enough **** to still be refrenced in the Polish national anthem

[Zoraptor]

Do they pledge eternal loyalty to the King of Sweden? If not Poles are at least a step up on the Dutch pledging eternal loyalty to the King of Spain in theirs.

(always wondered if the Spanish had a Queen whether the Dutch would change their anthem to pledge eternal loyalty to her instead like the Brits do with their anthem... probably not given Spain was a Republic for a while, unless they changed it to pledge loyalty to their President)

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Keyrock said:

As a Pole, I can tell you Sweden whooped up on my motherland several times too. Looooooong before my lifetime, though,

I wish I could move on from the terrible historical injustice  inflicted on my ancestors by the Nords\Vikings 

Keyrock do you know the Vikings enslaved,  Colonized and terrorized the Saxons for hundreds  of years? And one of the worst things about it is I never knew about this part of my ancestors history until about 7-8 years ago but once I  found out about  it the trauma has never gone away 

But  @Gorth and I do talk and acknowledge the terrible injustice every couple  of  months and we close to agreeing to redress,  I dont want Gorth and other Nordic members to be burdened by the overwhelming guilt and responsibility  of what their ancestors  did hundreds of years ago

And I said a monthly transfer of about $500 into my personal account would be enough for me to absolve him of the terrible injustice inflicted on my ancestors, life should always be about compromise 

 

 

 

 

[Azdeus]

4 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Do they pledge eternal loyalty to the King of Sweden? If not Poles are at least a step up on the Dutch pledging eternal loyalty to the King of Spain in theirs.

(always wondered if the Spanish had a Queen whether the Dutch would change their anthem to pledge eternal loyalty to her instead like the Brits do with their anthem... probably not given Spain was a Republic for a while, unless they changed it to pledge loyalty to their President)

Heh, more like "Po szwedzkim zaborze/after the swedish occupation"

Our own national anthem didn't even originally reference Sweden att all, it was about the Nordics since we were in a "union" with Norway. They added two verses to our national anthem in 1910, were Sweden is mentioned.

[kanisatha]

15 hours ago, Keyrock said:

Humans ****ing suck.

Preach.

[Keyrock]

13 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Do they pledge eternal loyalty to the King of Sweden? If not Poles are at least a step up on the Dutch pledging eternal loyalty to the King of Spain in theirs.

(always wondered if the Spanish had a Queen whether the Dutch would change their anthem to pledge eternal loyalty to her instead like the Brits do with their anthem... probably not given Spain was a Republic for a while, unless they changed it to pledge loyalty to their President)

 

9 hours ago, Azdeus said:

Heh, more like "Po szwedzkim zaborze/after the swedish occupation"

Our own national anthem didn't even originally reference Sweden att all, it was about the Nordics since we were in a "union" with Norway. They added two verses to our national anthem in 1910, were Sweden is mentioned.

The current Polish national anthem is Jeszcze Polska Nie Zginęła, which translates to Poland Has Not Yet Perished or Poland Is Not Yet Lost. Similar to English, in Polish the word for lost can mean "I lost my car keys, where are they?" or it can mean "we lost grandpa, the funeral is next week". Originally the lyric was Jeszcze Polska Nie Umarła or Poland Has Not Yet Died and the song was known as Pieśń Legionów Polskich we Włoszech or Song of the Polish Legions in Italy, this was long before it was the anthem and it had some different lyrics. If the title doesn't give it away, it's a song about perseverance, about surviving as a people. It basically says that no matter what we'll still be Poles and we will rebuild Poland, you can't snuff us out. Interestingly, there used to be another refrain that mentioned Germans and Russians, but it's gone from the modern version. The Swedes still get a mention, as occupiers, and Bonaparte gets mentioned by name since this was a song originally sung by Polish legions under Napoleon serving in Italy, hence the original title.

Edited January 10 by Keyrock

[xzar_monty]

On 1/9/2024 at 3:27 PM, BruceVC said:

And I really like Sweden, the thought of little , friendly Sweden having to fight a war upsets me 

As the saying goes, friendly Sweden is always prepared to fight against threats from the east, and it's going to fight all the way to the last Finn. After that, Sweden collapses.

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

As the saying goes, friendly Sweden is always prepared to fight against threats from the east, and it's going to fight all the way to the last Finn. After that, Sweden collapses.

So  Im not very knowledgeable on most  of the wars over the  last 100 years that Nordic countries have  fought in but I do  know  a little 

I do think Finland had demonstrated  it has the most effective military if you think of the Winter War and I  do realize all  the Nordic countries fought admirably against the Nazi, of course some Nords  also aligned with the Nazi but most  people didnt support them but they had to accept Nazi occupation which was  normal for most of Europe 

But the main advantage that Finland has now is the additional security of NATO and thats why I want friendly Sweden to join.  I doubt Russia would invade Sweden but Putin has demonstrated you cant take anything for granted  

NATO  membership will  give friendly Sweden peace of mind

 

 

Edited January 11 by BruceVC

[HoonDing]

"I  do realize all  the Nordic countries fought admirably against the Nazi"

if by Nordic countries you mean Norge

Danmark surrendered when a German farted outside Flensburg

[xzar_monty]

46 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

and I  do realize all  the Nordic countries fought admirably against the Nazi

You might want to do a brief study about the Holocaust in Norway and then possibly reconsider your position on this. Incidentally, this continues to be a question that much of Norway is extremely firmly in denial about.

[BruceVC]

34 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

You might want to do a brief study about the Holocaust in Norway and then possibly reconsider your position on this. Incidentally, this continues to be a question that much of Norway is extremely firmly in denial about.

https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/narvik-movie-true-story

I watched this movie about Norway in WW2,  its good