Romance

[DarbiusMaximus]

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere in these forums, I just can't find where, so I'm creating a new topic.

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give multiple love story options. It helps make the game so much more interesting. In KOTOR, I can kind of see how Bastila serves the light and the dark romance because you can sway her one way or the other, but what if you're playing a chick? I recently played a female dark-side guardian because I just wanted to try it out and there was no romance really...it was really boring. Well, I did the carth romance, but why in the hell would he ever fall in love with someone so pitifully and completely evil as my guardian?

 

It would have been awesome if we could do a romance with Canderous if your evil or Juhani, just to switch things up (Mission's waaaay underage, so I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole).

 

You could also take some romance conflicts from Baldur's Gate II where a fellow party member challenges you if you choose to do a romance with a certain female. In BG II there were 3 female romance options (only 1 male, but who really cares about that in a game like BGII) which did a great job of keeping me occupied. It was also funny because you could try playing the field (all 3) and they'd get mad at you at the romances would stop.

 

Anyway, it's such a great way to keep yourself occupied while running around doing other stuff and it ups the replayability even more.

[sniggy]

it'd be interesting to have a love story available if you turn to the dark side. i can see a corrupted bounty hunter finding some interest in an evil sith lady. a love-hate relationship, maybe?

[Guest ikaru12345]

I loved the romance theme between my character and Bastila in KOTOR. Games now a days are more about action and adventure (which is ok), than actually concentrating on the development of the characters as apposed to real life situations. I mean, lets face it, if a male character in a game fights side by side with a very attractive female companion, you can't expect him to just ignore the aspect of him falling in love with her completely. That wouldn't be...human. Life-like characters are what most people long for in pc games. Why can't there be as much emotion in a relationship in a game as it is in real life? When I finished KOTOR, I was so sad that it was the end of the romantic affair between my character and Bastila. After the kiss on the Ebon Hawk, everything went silent. I was always clicking on Bastila to get her to talk about her feelings but with no luck. And then she was taken by Malak and I had to go through the remaining quests just to defeat her in battle, and if I played the dialoges right, at the end, all you'd get is her redemption and the words "My Love". That is the extent of there relationship. After that, the game ends, the galaxy is saved and we're sad. Please don't get me wrong. KOTOR is one of the greatest RPG pc games to ever hit the market. And if you want my personal opinion about other previous games with the aspect of romance in mind, the Final Fantasy series come to mind. After the Final Fantasy series, it was rare for games to have that kind of romantic character development. The developers of KOTOR could've had a bit more dialogue and expansion concerning the relationship point of view. I can only hope and I truly do, that Obsidian Entertainment will take the romantic aspect of the previous KOTOR to an even higher level, expanding it with as many choices and with even more dialogue as possible.

[Rensei]

Well, if you could stomach Aerie's early dialogue, you have a pretty fun relationship with her in Baldur's Gate II. A few rolls in the sack, a baby quarter bhaalspawn, just like you would expect. She gets fiesty later on too! Back to the topic though...

 

Emotions are really the only way the writers can touch the player. Once my character heard Aerie was with child, he made damn sure he didnt need to use any rods of resurrection. Not even the priestess of Bhaal couldnt get past my Warrior. The way Aerie developed was what made that character fun. She started off as a sniveling coward but she really came into her own and gained faith in her abilities.

 

For a change of pace, Id like to see a romance that involved a strong woman. Im not talkin Amazon queen or anything, I mean very set in her ways. Stubborn, independant, etc.

[Ivan the Terrible]

For a change of pace, Id like to see a romance that involved a strong woman. Im not talkin Amazon queen or anything, I mean very set in her ways. Stubborn, independant, etc.

As someone on here is fond of noting, hopefully the developers will understand that 'strong woman' does not always equal 'bitch.' At least, not necessarily. It's only when said woman fails to bring me a beer that she gains that distinguished title.

[alanschu]

I liked Jaheira for the role of strong woman that wasn't a bitch.

 

She voiced her opinion strongly, but always had your back.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I liked Jaheira for the role of strong woman that wasn't a bitch.

Curious, because most people consider her one, due to her constant whining and holier-than-thou attitude troughtout Shadows of Amn.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Games now a days are more about action and adventure (which is ok), than actually concentrating on the development of the characters as apposed to real life situations.

 

Character development still exists. Real life situations are still depicted in games. Romance isn't the only real life situation in existance, after all, and there isn't much of a point in including it in every game.

 

I mean, lets face it, if a male character in a game fights side by side with a very attractive female companion, you can't expect him to just ignore the aspect of him falling in love with her completely. That wouldn't be...human.

 

Why not? Why do you believe that if a man does not feel attracted to a phisically attractive woman, he's not human? I'd like to know the reasoning behind that one.

 

Why can't there be as much emotion in a relationship in a game as it is in real life?

 

Most of the time, it's because games are finite, confined things which cannot faithfully recreate everything you see in real life (and therefore, shouldn't try to). Not only that, romances are an element which is not important to a game, and as such, devs don't spend enormous time in it. They're simply distractions for some gamers, not a necessity.

[Raven]

this has been said too many times, and i always give the same exact answer (sometimes with typos)

 

Romance shouldn't be in video games, its stupid

[nightcleaver]

As much as I respect your arguements...

 

You might as well say devs shouldn't spend so much time trying to develop the main character, because dev's don't do that anyway, or the main character needs to be a bad-arse villain buster (and little else of character) because that's all gamers want. I TOTALLY disagree, though I admit that particular example has truth to it even for KotOR.

Maybe there shouldn't be any familial relationships with the main character? Those sure as heck can't be depicted properly. You grow up with them - how can that be shown properly? The video gamer can't go through the main character's life in every game. Fable, sure, but that's a different breed. I would go so far ast to state, maybe games shouldn't have any close ties to characters, but that would totally obliterate what story video games had.

Hmm...

Don't romances (the idea that the main character is in a non-platonic relationship with a female character) move the plot in another direction, give meaning to the overall action? It certainly did in KotOR. Ton's of people thought the romances were perfectly effective - why? They can fill in the blanks that can't be done. You don't need ALL the details, just enough for you to understand what's going on and how it pertains to the story.

[Raven]

As much as I respect your arguements...

 

You might as well say devs shouldn't spend so much time trying to develop the main character, because dev's don't do that anyway, or the main character needs to be a bad-arse villain buster (and little else of character) because that's all gamers want. I TOTALLY disagree, though I admit that particular example has truth to it even for KotOR.

Maybe there shouldn't be any familial relationships with the main character? Those sure as heck can't be depicted properly. You grow up with them - how can that be shown properly? The video gamer can't go through the main character's life in every game. Fable, sure, but that's a different breed. I would go so far ast to state, maybe games shouldn't have any close ties to characters, but that would totally obliterate what story video games had.

Hmm...

Don't romances (the idea that the main character is in a non-platonic relationship with a female character) move the plot in another direction, give meaning to the overall action? It certainly did in KotOR. Ton's of people thought the romances were perfectly effective - why? They can fill in the blanks that can't be done. You don't need ALL the details, just enough for you to understand what's going on and how it pertains to the story.

a well argued point (i love a debate, this will be fun)

 

anyway, i find romances hard to notice in games , and a waste of a developers/writers time. i didnt even know there was a romance in kotor . i played through the whole game and didnt even see it, which is sorta weird. this is one of the reasons why i dont think it should be needed. they should take that time to focus on sidequests. maybe the sidequests could have a romace element of a sort. or maybe have 2 of your party members be a married couple.

 

but romance shouldnt be something that involves the PC, cause mainly, it went unnoticed cause im a real person, not the actual character. im not really good at explaining this. but thats what i think.

[Quasar]

I think the BG2 romances added quite a lot to the game. They made me care a whole lot more.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't know if this was directed at me, so apologies if it wasn't.

 

You might as well say devs shouldn't spend so much time trying to develop the main character, because dev's don't do that anyway, or the main character needs to be a bad-arse villain buster (and little else of character) because that's all gamers want. I TOTALLY disagree, though I admit that particular example has truth to it even for KotOR.

 

I'm not against character development, i'm against elements which are perceived as being means of character development, but which in the end are not. Being against a romance element isn't the same as being against character development. A main character can be developed in multiple ways, wheter in the statistical or social/interactive aspects. I just feel romances are perhaps the most pointless elements of character development. I think of them as being usually forced and contrived, and some are shoved into the plot in a way to make players feel like it's taking them somewhere with it.

 

Don't romances (the idea that the main character is in a non-platonic relationship with a female character) move the plot in another direction, give meaning to the overall action? It certainly did in KotOR.

 

And have you asked yourself why this appears to be so? They're specifically made so the plot usually revolves around them if they are active. It's smoke and mirrors. This is similar to how the plot of Baldur's Gate 2 worked. When you confront Bodhi after the Underdark, if you were involved in a romance, the character in question would get abducted, thus throwing at the players another forced, additional concern in the game. Yet, it didn't changed the plot one bit; you were just given another element to add to the plot, a sidequest, so to speak, which was of little to no relevance. It's shallow, at best.

 

It certainly did in KotOR. Ton's of people thought the romances were perfectly effective - why?

 

Beats me, specially when Bastilla was a very ill-devised character.

[sickboycp]

Personally, I'm for romances if AND ONLY IF they fulfill two conditions in a CRPG.

 

 

1) It adds to character development in a natural, unforced way.

 

2)It doesn't seem like a high school romance (see any Bioware romance for an example)

 

 

There has only been one game that succeeded in this for me, and it was (surprise, surprise!) Planescape:Torment.

 

The Nameless One's romance with Annah (and to a lesser extent FFG) was done extremely well. It was understated, it worked well with the characters, and it didn't really place them in any forced, awkward situations that sent the PC on a meaningless sidequest.

 

MCA should save the high school romances for the high school cRPG that he's dreaming of.

[nightcleaver]

I don't know if this was directed at me, so apologies if it wasn't.

 

You might as well say devs shouldn't spend so much time trying to develop the main character, because dev's don't do that anyway, or the main character needs to be a bad-arse villain buster (and little else of character) because that's all gamers want. I TOTALLY disagree, though I admit that particular example has truth to it even for KotOR.

 

I'm not against character development, i'm against elements which are perceived as being means of character development, but which in the end are not. Being against a romance element isn't the same as being against character development. A main character can be developed in multiple ways, wheter in the statistical or social/interactive aspects. I just feel romances are perhaps the most pointless elements of character development. I think of them as being usually forced and contrived, and some are shoved into the plot in a way to make players feel like it's taking them somewhere with it.

 

Don't romances (the idea that the main character is in a non-platonic relationship with a female character) move the plot in another direction, give meaning to the overall action? It certainly did in KotOR.

 

And have you asked yourself why this appears to be so? They're specifically made so the plot usually revolves around them if they are active. It's smoke and mirrors. This is similar to how the plot of Baldur's Gate 2 worked. When you confront Bodhi after the Underdark, if you were involved in a romance, the character in question would get abducted, thus throwing at the players another forced, additional concern in the game. Yet, it didn't changed the plot one bit; you were just given another element to add to the plot, a sidequest, so to speak, which was of little to no relevance. It's shallow, at best.

 

It certainly did in KotOR. Ton's of people thought the romances were perfectly effective - why?

 

Beats me, specially when Bastilla was a very ill-devised character.

You didn't understand what I was saying. I wasn't saying that you were against character development, unlike others here. It gives additional meaning to the plot, and YOU don't have to bother with it. If the problem is that you don't see why someone would put a romance in, that's fine, but evidently it adds something for a fair majority of people.

 

I'd like you to say SOMETHING, ANYTHING that indicates good plot in this game. I'll probably be able to give a retort that states those things are no better or worse than the romance.

Romance - contrived? How so? It seems that you're arguing a romance can only be contrived when it's in a game, and *I* would argue that most of the plot in a video game has to be somewhat contrived in that same or similar sense. Romance fails in video games for the same reasons friendships or familial relationships fail. Sure, Imoen in BG 2 was supposed to be your sister, and you had that feeling for a little while... but eventually it just faded out and didn't make any sense. Who is this girl??

Did THAT anything to the plot? Sure it did, despite the limitations.

 

In addition:

 

There are COUNTLESS ways to make video game romances better, it's just that there are too many problems with time(lack thereof)/the plot in general (somewhat linear, VERY level oriented regardless of replayability) and the fact that the main character has serious limitations on development due to people insisting "free will". (Whatever the heck that means, in this case) There are, however, workarounds. I would agree that the romances in BGII and even KotOR aren't nearly as good as they could be, but they still add emotional context. (If that's your feeling that they don't because of how "horrible" they really are, that's not anyone else's issue.... unless they agree with you) I hate bananas, but I like banana chips and banana flavored candy. Banana's have a horrible texture, and apparently some people think so too but still enjoy them for their flavor. Would it be annoying and nonsensical for me to fight the production of banana's for mass consumption, because they were a waste of human resources? No. However, I might say, "I don't see the point in eating banana's" because they're so horrible to me, but still understand that not everyone hates banana's (for whatever reason). Is that what you're saying? If so, there really isn't any point in arguing.

 

If you still can't see what I'm saying, I don't really understand what your problem with romances is. (In other words, if you can explain specifics and examples, please do so)

[Maria Caliban]

DarbiusMaximus:

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I'd appreciate it if next time you'd think of your response before typing something and fixing it every five seconds. It just delays the process of giving a quick response.

 

If the problem is that you don't see why someone would put a romance in, that's fine, but evidently it adds something for a fair majority of people.

 

That it adds something that's apparently worth to many people is not what's at stake. Romance elemenents aren't even exclusive in whatever perceived worth they might have - as it would seem, many people also think that elements like jumping, climbing, horse-riding and swimming also add something to a game. So, why aren't they included more often? Likely, because any of those gameplay elements, tends to carry a marginal weight in a game to justify their inclusion.

 

Even in the event of it adding something for a fair majority of people, i haven't yet seen much of a consensus in that regard. Most of the boards i visit - including Bioware's - happen to have disagreements over the worth of romances, and of the characters included in them.

 

I'd like you to say SOMETHING, ANYTHING that indicates good plot in this game. I'll probably be able to give a retort that states those things are no better or worse than the romance.

 

I'm sure you can. However, i'd like to know what game are you talking about, and when did the discussion of the quality of a game's plot entered our part of the discussion? Are you asking me to indicate anything that would indicate good plot in what - KoTOR2? If so, for what purpose?

 

Romance - contrived? How so? It seems that you're arguing a romance can only be contrived when it's in a game

 

No, that's far from what i'm saying. Nowhere back there did i state they have to be contrived when included in a game; only that most of them end up being so. I wouldn't call the romance elements of, say, Planescape: Torment, bad or even contrived, because they were well done.

 

and *I* would argue that most of the plot in a video game has to be somewhat contrived in that some sense.

 

Sorry, but i don't understand your point of view. You seem to be arguing that since a story has to (apparently) be contrived, than other elements are also excusable of being contrived? I would likely argue that, just because one element would *have* to be contrived, that it doesn't mean other elements have to be equally contrived. There's no reason to think otherwise that i can see, really.

 

Romance fails in video games for the same reasons friendships or familial relationships fail. Sure, Imoen in BG 2 was supposed to be your sister, and you had that feeling for a little while... but eventually it just faded out and didn't make any sense. Who is this girl??

Did THAT anything to the plot? Sure it did, despite the limitations.

 

Of course it had to do something for the plot; it was integrated into it, and was pretty much unavoidable.

 

Is that what you're saying? If so, there really isn't any point in arguing.

 

I thought it was blatant i was giving my opinion. If you believe it necessary, i can lace all of my opinions with a big shiny IMO tag.

 

If you still can't see what I'm saying

 

Nice try at being condescending, but i understood what you meant from the beginning.

 

I don't really understand what your problem with romances is.

 

Well, if none of the above was clear enough, then suffice to say that i don't think romances should be included at all in RPGs. Most of the time, the game's premise doesn't even lend itself to their existebce, as you're supposed to develop feelings for characters who have only been traveling with you for a very short time (and which you can barely relate to), and have to pay attention to their calls and needs while simultaneously defending yourself from attacks coming from all sides. If they have to be included for some reason - like pandering to loveless teens who want some virtual nookie - then they shouldn't be taken lightly, and should be mature elements.

 

 

 

I

[AlanC9]

Even in the event of it adding something for a fair majority of people, i haven't yet seen much of a consensus in that regard. Most of the boards i visit - including Bioware's - happen to have disagreements over the worth of romances, and of the characters included in them.

 

There are disagreements, but the pro-romance side consistently wins, and usually with an absolute majority. Folks who think it's a waste of dev time usually poll less than the "who cares" party.

 

Whether that's "consensus" or not is a metter of definition.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I've seen ocasions where the pro-romance stance wins more often than the more negative side, but never saw an absolute majority victory. Granted, i don't keep track of all threads in their boards (though i try, nonetheless).

[anari_quun]

If the story hinges on it, go for it.

 

If not, don't bother.

 

Since a romance is a different sort of relationship with your characters that would in real life have lasting repercussions that would lead to a different chain of events in the end, I think at this point it's just not possible to really make an effective romance in a game like KOTOR because the focus of the story is on the big picture: taking down the bad guys.

 

If there was a romance, I think at first the devolopers would need to limit the character selection to just male or just female, because of time constraints. Then, from there, there would need to be at least four different endings, good side romance, good side no romance, dark side romance, dark side no romance. And then there should be even more endings because you shouldn't be limited in who your character chooses to be attracted to. Man, it's just too complicated to make realistic!

 

I liked that they touched on it in KOTOR, though. I think this could open the door for more expanded romance "quests".

 

Oh, and about the men and women in the same party automatically being attracted to one another: The option should be there. It's not written in stone; you either go ahead with the romance, or you don't. It should be another option of gameplay, just like everything else.

[Rensei]

Lots of good ideas flowin here.

 

 

[Maria Caliban]

I can sympathize with those who don't want romances in their cRPGs. There is something absurd about a game consisting of mostly hacking through enemies with a sappy romance grafted onto it.

 

Despite this, romance is here to stay. At their heart, cRPGs cater to player fantasy and human fantasies tend to fall into two groups: sex/romance and power/fame. All entertainment mediums do the same but most have more sophisticated ways of narrating them. Most also have a broader audience base. Mature plotlines require a mature audience and a mature industry. Look at comic books; they've existed in their current form for sixty years yet the majority still caters to adolescent power fantasies. Cartoons are even worse as most are still aimed at the toddler to early teenage set. [i am certain someone will pipe up about anime and manga. That's an argument for a different thread.]

 

Fans of computer games have it easy comparatively because the computer was first extensively for adults and is still quite expensive.

[Raven]

I can sympathize with those who don't want romances in their cRPGs. There is something absurd about a game consisting of mostly hacking through enemies with a sappy romance grafted onto it.

 

Despite this, romance is here to stay. At their heart, cRPGs cater to player fantasy and human fantasies tend to fall into two groups: sex/romance and power/fame. All entertainment mediums do the same but most have more sophisticated ways of narrating them. Most also have a broader audience base. Mature plotlines require a mature audience and a mature industry. Look at comic books; they've existed in their current form for sixty years yet the majority still caters to adolescent power fantasies. Cartoons are even worse as most are still aimed at the toddler to early teenage set. [i am certain someone will pipe up about anime and manga. That's an argument for a different thread.]

 

Fans of computer games have it easy comparatively because the computer was first extensively for adults and is still quite expensive.

this is my view:

 

video games are used for stuff which is pretty hard , illegal, or impossible to do in the real world:

 

kill people

use a lightsaber + force

fly in a space ship

participate as an NFL player

and so on.

 

for some reason in your post you supported my view in an attempt to support your i guess, im not sure. could you be more clear?

[Maria Caliban]

Clear about what? I've said a great deal in this thread and so far I haven't explicitly agreed with any of your statements.

[Raven]

Clear about what? I've said a great deal in this thread and so far I haven't explicitly agreed with any of your statements.

you mentions a hack and slash game with a 'sappy' romance, which this topic is about the whole romance thing about kotor2. which kotor2 should have something to do with kotor1, which didnt have romance as far as i saw. i saw it more as a 'hack-and-slash' type of game of a sort.