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The All Things Political Topic - A conservative is someone who makes no changes and consults his grandmother when in doubt


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58 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Of all the possible people you want to bring out Trump as example??? ūüėĄ

I was going to say!¬†ūüėÜ

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

Kennedy? Trump?

Kennedy wasn't assassinated by the CIA, despite what Oliver Stone would have you believe. But you are also going back 60 years to pull an example. Trump is the new Teflon Don. He can convince a bunch of yahoos to storm the Capitol Building and is still going to end up on the ballot in every state. He might even end up President. I'm not sure what that is an example of, but it certainly isn't comparable to Putin's Russia.

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16 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Would think Assange or Snowden are better examples, albeit non political. 

Would add Epstein too.

@Hurlshort @Lexx Trump's character doesn't change that what is happening to him right now is clearly an effort to eliminate him from the running. Also it's not like the rest of your Presidents from FDR forward were much better (and some even before FDR).

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"because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP

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Just whose policy is it to let orcs illegal immigrants run wild in our White City, anyways?

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How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart.

In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance.

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5 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Would think Assange or Snowden are better examples, albeit non political. 

Are you comparing the  reality of the lack of freedom in  Russia to any Western country or the  US ? Would you say its similar ?

It reminds me of this debate on Codex, and I know you not suggesting this,  but there are people who have never been to the US and just have an opinion which is influenced  by SM and what they read on sensationalized forums  which are  all anti-Western\US 

So they do think the lack of freedom in the  US and Russia is  the same  and when I ask  them for examples  and  I  use  this  comparison 

In Russia 

  • no free¬† and fair elections¬†
  • no free¬† media¬†
  • no criticism of the war or government allowed¬†
  • no real¬† right to protest
  • journalists and political¬† opponents get arrested¬† or assassinated¬†

 

They respond with these points about what they think about US 

  • ¬†no free¬† and fair elections:¬†Trump should have won and election was¬† stolen
  • no free¬† media: deep state\Jews\CIA control media in the US
  • no criticism of the war or government allowed: you cant criticize LGBT policies¬† which government is forcing on society
  • no real right to protest: people were¬† arrested during Corona and werent allowed¬† to protest and dont forget " Canadian truckers¬† protest and how that was¬† crushed "
  • ¬†journalists and political¬† opponents get arrested¬† or assassinated : Again Trump gets¬† mentioned or Snowden is¬† used as an example¬†¬†

:grin:

But the  point is  there  are  people who genuinely believe the lack  of freedom is the same in the Russia and the US  or its not  much different 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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so, let us get this straight. navalny dies in a russian prison, and next thing you know, the predictable board personalities is discussing the evhuls o' western media, snowden, and the assassination o' kennedy? *chuckle* deflection, false equivalency, whataboutism and conspiracy theories? for reals?

you folks are a hoot.

we didn't particular like navalny, 'cause other than being against putin, he had few positions we could stomach-- his ideology were embracing nationalism and racism beyond even the russian norm. understatement to say we didn't embrace navalny as some kinda hero. 'course, to say we didn't like him much is different than wanting him to die in a russian prison.

tell us navalny improbable fell out o' a prison window to his death would not shock us... or probable anybody else, but y'know, whatabout... 

regardless, navalny's death as the impetus for seth rich kinda conspiracies and reflexive whatabouting so matches our expectations. wilie e. coyote at least mixes up his efforts... tries something different each time.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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19 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

One of those people I won't shed any tears for, regardless of how many gullible people thinks he had anything positive to contribute...

Some even fell for his shtick so much he got awarded some prize, which was later rescinded when they found out more about the man

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/24/amnesty-strips-navalny-of-prisoner-of-conscience-status?traffic_source=KeepReading

"Muslim ‚Äė****roaches‚Äô

In a 2007 pro-gun rights video, Navalny presents himself as a ‚Äúcertified nationalist‚ÄĚ who wants to exterminate ‚Äúflies and ****roaches‚ÄĚ ‚Äď while bearded Muslim men appear in cutaways.

He whips out a gun and shoots an actor wearing a keffiyeh who tried to ‚Äúattack‚ÄĚ him.

The 42-second video was released by the Russian National Liberation Movement, a nationalist group Navalny had just co-founded with Zakhar Prilepin, a renowned novelist who later fought for pro-Russian separatists in southeastern Ukraine and joined a pro-Kremlin socialist party earlier this year.

Shortly before releasing the video, Navalny was kicked out of Yabloko, Russia‚Äôs oldest liberal democratic party, for his ‚Äúnationalist views‚ÄĚ and participation in the Russian March, an annual rally of thousands of far-right nationalists, monarchists and white supremacists."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/25/navalny-has-the-kremlin-foe-moved-on-from-his-nationalist-past

 

...and this is the guy many people wanted to replace Putin??? Putin is soft by comparison (although granted, Navalny would probably have started ethnic cleansing programs to remove all non-Slavic blood from Russian territory before looking abroad)

 

Edit: Since his first strategy for seizing power failed, he tried the populist approach instead, trying to appeal to Western backing in his attempts to oust Putin

 

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‚ÄúHe who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.‚ÄĚ - Albert Einstein
 

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I don't think we should confuse the concern over a lack of opposition to Putin with support for said opposition. The problem is opposition is not allowed to exist in Russia. That is major component of tyranny. I doubt many in the west would prefer Navalny or the Wagner group chief guy. Alternatively, I'd guess a fair amount of people are depressed by the Presidential candidates this year. But at least there is a choice, and there is an open debate, and there is open criticism, and there is an end date to their terms.

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55 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

Alternatively, I'd guess a fair amount of people are depressed by the Presidential candidates this year. But at least there is a choice, and there is an open debate, and there is open criticism, and there is an end date to their terms.

What choice? They have all been largely the same term after term, continuing each others wars and starting new one, steering the country in the same general direction.

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"because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP

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15 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Would think Assange or Snowden are better examples, albeit non political. 

Those are political. That the unhinged neocons and galaxy brained centrists both think it's good to throw them in jail forever just shows how maintenance of US hegemony is integral to the ruling ideologies of US politics.

15 hours ago, Sarex said:

Would add Epstein too

Epstein had dirt on so many people that if he was killed, and he probably was, that it could have easily not been official government business so to speak. 

And Trump is less about being an opposition to the current elected leader and more that he ****ed with the process. It is a surprise that he's facing any consequences at all, and I think that had he accepted his election loss that all of his legal trouble (including the stuff not directly related to the whole election bull****) would have not happened.

7 hours ago, Gorth said:

..and this is the guy many people wanted to replace Putin???

B-b-but he only wanted what's best for his country! Surly ethnic cleansing is a small price to pay ?

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4 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

The problem is opposition is not allowed to exist in Russia.

That isn't quite the problem, since opposition is allowed to exist, it's not North Korea. The opposition is a lot more restricted than in most liberal democracies though, certainly.

That problem is more, at least from the western perspective, that there's very little pro western sentiment at any level and the practical Putin alternatives are: Medvedev or similar from United Russia, Zyuganov's ossified non corpse from the commies, Mironov who's basically a CCP style State Capitalist, or Zhiro's ossified actual corpse from the Liberals. The only one of those who isn't stridently revanchist is Mironov, who is a bit more moderately revanchist. The liberal, pro west party that Gorth mentioned (Yabloko) cannot even pass the 5% threshold- less than 2% vote in 2021- and doesn't on western polling data either. While the commies and LDPR are seen as controlled opposition they supported the 2012 protests extensively, hence all the soviet and Russian Imperial flags being waved at them.

Navalny wasn't tolerated since he was seen as a western stooge. Certainly his coverage in the west was disproportionate to his highest poll rating from western agencies of around 5% which might, barely have scraped his party into the duma. Both the commies and LDPR regularly get 3-4x that vote each, but are stridently anti west so don't count as opposition.

Ultimately, the problem for any western liberal politician in Russia is not Putin, but Yeltsin and, well, the west in general. You're not going to get a nice liberal pro free market pro europe pro west non revanchist out of the margin of error while peddling racial stereotypes, talking about breaking up their country and actively supplying arms and intelligence to kill their countrymen.

3 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Those are political. That the unhinged neocons and galaxy brained centrists both think it's good to throw them in jail forever just shows how maintenance of US hegemony is integral to the ruling ideologies of US politics.

Obviously I'd agree with that, personally. The disclaimer was more to avoid the- inevitable, as it turned out, ho hum- accusations of them being irrelevant since they aren't politicians while Navalny (/Trump/ Kennedy) are/ were.

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10 hours ago, Gorth said:

One of those people I won't shed any tears for, regardless of how many gullible people thinks he had anything positive to contribute...

 

 

as we observed, navalny were no hero in our estimation. the thing is, he weren't in prison for any o' the stuff you mention. 

we disliked navalny but that don't make what happened to him ok, does it? is it ok to ignore stuff like fair trials when the person being locked up is a bad person? who decides who is bad enough such that a government may poison or imprison a person? and again, the wrongs @Gorth perceives is so not why putin were annoyed with navalny... and the bigotry and nationalism o' navalny sure didn't make him less popular with a considerable number o' russians neither.

not shedding tears for navalny is one thing. seeing the imprisonment, poisoning and/or murder o' individuals as ok regardless o' stuff such as rights and fair trials just because the target o' government vengeance were a bad guy is dangerous.  

regardless, beware the whataboutism, deflection, conspiracy theories and false equivalency. is farcical and predictable how the death o' yet another putin critic is somehow reallys about western evhuls.

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

as we observed, navalny were no hero in our estimation. the thing is, he weren't in prison for any o' the stuff you mention. 

we disliked navalny but that don't make what happened to him ok, does it? is it ok to ignore stuff like fair trials when the person being locked up is a bad person? who decides who is bad enough such that a government may poison or imprison a person? and again, the wrongs @Gorth perceives is so not why putin were annoyed with navalny... and the bigotry and nationalism o' navalny sure didn't make him less popular with a considerable number o' russians neither.

not shedding tears for navalny is one thing. seeing the imprisonment, poisoning and/or murder o' individuals as ok regardless o' stuff such as rights and fair trials just because the target o' government vengeance were a bad guy is dangerous.  

regardless, beware the whataboutism, deflection, conspiracy theories and false equivalency. is farcical and predictable how the death o' yet another putin critic is somehow reallys about western evhuls.

HA! Good Fun!

My inner anarchist is all in favour of people in power, whether political, military or corporate being held accountable for how they use said power, so I can lament the lack of a functioning judiciary (and a lack of check and balances in general) in Russia. In this case It felt like some bizarre episode of Games of Thrones though. Two guys were butting heads for the iron throne, neither of the two giving a damn about law and order, much less human values (and the value of human lives)... and one of them lost.

But how do you change a society like that? It has no history of such things as independent judiciary or democratic principles (at least not the last 600 years). Replacing a tyrant with a tyrant isn't really the way.

There is of course also that part where my reaction had more to do with some western leaders rubbing me the wrong way, because they (including the Aussie government at some point) kept portraying Navalny as some kind of paragon of human virtues (which doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in said leaders) ūüôĄ

 

‚ÄúHe who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.‚ÄĚ - Albert Einstein
 

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3 hours ago, Gorth said:

But how do you change a society like that? It has no history of such things as independent judiciary or democratic principles (at least not the last 600 years). Replacing a tyrant with a tyrant isn't really the way.

what can you do, right? the history o' russia, china, north korea, syria and (fill in the blank with whichever nation you believe deserves to be in such illustrious company) is so inexorable enmeshed in corruption and blood, there just ain't a real solution. 'course you could say same for most any nation if you stretch the timeline back far enough, yes? england? france? sweden? any of 'em get off clean if we go back six hundred years? don't need to go back very far with germany, italy and japan, do we? as such, am not sure if shrugging the whole thing off as russians being russians is a compelling counter argument.

the situation in russia is never gonna change if the people in russia in particular keep shrugging off change as impossible. 

being poisoned, imprisoned on trumped up embezzlement charges and possible murdered is okie dokie 'cause is russia and 'cause gorth has decided navalny were one o' the bad russians. if am misrepresenting, please clarify, 'cause anarchist or not, you gotta recognize what a precarious moral precipice 'pon which you are standing when you make such distinctions. and as much as we agree navalny's bigotry were rare mentioned by western leaders, you should see such is irrelevant insofar as deciding whether or not being poisoned, imprisoned and possible murdered were justified.

clarification: as an anarchist, gorth don't trust the russian government, but the russian peoples, for the most part, like putin and all those things you dislike about navalny don't bother most russians-- is the reason navalny went to prison for embezzlement and not one o' the sins you mention.  can't trust the russians and their six hundred year traditions? ok, now what? does gorth get to decide which russians is bad and deserve punishment. obviously as an anarchist there ain't gonna be a government solution. 

maybe gorth just don't care. as long as the bad guys he identifies suffer, then call it a win? am s'posing that works just as long as everybody everywhere agrees to adopt gorth's moral compass. am not gonna hold our breath waiting for that day.

let's use a western example and since a poster improbable brought up trump.

Gromnir is on record as being dubious 'bout the ny hush money case against trump. from as yet uncontroverted evidence, it would appear trump engaged in illegal behaviour multiple times as he paid stormy daniels but did not disclose those payments appropriate on his taxes or campaign contribution records. however, ny is trying to bring a case against trump for felony counts based on a rather novel bootstrapping approach; the individual charges against trump in ny is all misdemeanors. also, ordinary the fed would handle such a case given trump were running for national office, but they declined to do so reported 'cause they had no confidence that their primary witness, michael cohen, would benefit their case. of all the cases against trump, the ny hush money case looks weakest to us and am questioning its legitimacy. much like the mar-a-lago case, am thinking some o' the tv lawyering is giving the public false impressions... though in the mar-a-lago situation the media were underselling the threat to tump as 'posed to oversell.

trump has done all kinda wrongs. his knowing misrepresentations 'bout covid led to hundreds o' thousands o' unnecessary deaths, and those numbers is from folks chosen by trump to serve on his covid advisory team... and am not even talking 'bout fauci. we would be here all day listing the unconstitutional and moral wrongs committed by trump which should make anybody who has ever uttered tds sans irony look like a complete yutz. trump deserves prison, but he ain't going to prison unless it can be proven to a jury o' his peers, and beyond a reasonable doubt, that he committed crimes. is our opinion that even if ny can prove their hush money case against trump, it ain't a case which shoulda' been brought. that said, there is plenty o' other folks with more legal cred than Gromnir who disagree with us and am happy to argue the merits o' prosecuting trump in ny for his porn star payoff.

now suppose one o' the obsidian board liberals, bothered by our opinion on trump's ny case, starts pointing out how things work in russia and china. Gromnir complains 'bout the US media, but boardies ask us to imagine how chinese news papers would cover if somebody xi didn't like were being prosecuted. and btw, there is a whole lotta evidence trump is a russian stooge, so that makes all the russia whatbouting relevant somehow. were literal more than a dozen russian state-sponsored hackers who were convicted o' helping trump and the mueller report found considerable evidence o' collusion by the trump campaign insofar as russia in spite o' what bill barr convinced the maga faithful. is not difficult to find soundbites o' trump which make him look like a russian stooge. in russia, trump would be lucky to have any kinda sham trial, so our handwringing about the ny ag finessing the law a bit is so qq. etc.

insofar as the hush money case is concerned, chinese newspaper coverage, the russian system o' justice, and trump being responsible for more than 100k covid dead is irrelevant. if trump goes to prison for the hush money case, Gromnir is gonna question whether such were a fair outcome. 

sounds ridiculous when you do same deflection and whatabouting, yes? heck, we didn't even work in the conspiracy theories. 

whatabouting and deflection from the usual suspects hereabout is so reflexive, most o' us don't even consider how silly such is. 

aside-- the mar-a-lago case remains the obvious no-brainer/dead-to-rights case trump is facing, but the judge in that case is utter incompetent and is dragging her feet at almost every opportunity. am literal unable to imagine a meaningful defense for trump in that case assuming the state proffered evidence is legit. contrary to conspiracy theorists, is improbable the feds engineered false recordings and made up testimony in their indictment if for no other reason than that such lies would be revealed easily during discovery.  is near impossible for trump to claim evidence were planted after he called for a special master to return his seized property.  a couple of trump's own attorneys has given testimony which incriminates the former President. there is audio recordings o' trump talking about documents he claimed in an affidavit were not in his possession. is also video tape o' his cronies moving boxes filled contemporaneous with the lawyer and fbi searches. is also the IT guy's testimony. etc.

in any normal situation, the defendant in such a case woulda' tried for a plea deal, but if trump can win the election, the prosecution disappears... 

HA! Good Fun!

ps a fun fact am having mentioned once before is that when the US Constitution were penned, felonies were, by definition, those crimes punishable by death.¬†high crimes and misdemeanors were a bit less baffling in 1787. felony v. misdemeanor has changed a smidge over the years. even so, am thinking many people is shocked to learn that in the US, misdemeanor ‚Ȇ trivial. max time o' imprisonment for a misdemeanor in most US jurisdictions is one year.¬†

 

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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12 hours ago, Sarex said:

What choice? They have all been largely the same term after term, continuing each others wars and starting new one, steering the country in the same general direction.

No, not really. The idea that Reagan is the same as Bush is the same as Clinton is the same as W Bush is the same as Obama is the same as Trump is the same as Biden is not going hold up under scrutiny.

And again, the criticism of all of these guys is non-stop. The western media eats theie own. What does the Russia media do?

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Russia had a decent chance of being a 'liberal democracy' in 1992 and maybe even making it to one without the air quotes.

Instead they got economic shock therapy that lead to two bankruptcies, and the incomparable incompetent sot Boris Yeltsin. Who may have been feted among western politicians but left office on the basis that the population would not be permitted to lynch him- and that's pretty much literally the one thing he asked- and whose democratic credentials internally were utterly ruined by the 1996 election. At that point what do you do, vote for ongoing disaster? Not likely. It's a real shame, if there had been even a moderate Marshall Plan type system in place for Russia the world would likely be a massively different- and better- place.

6 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

No, not really. The idea that Reagan is the same as Bush is the same as Clinton is the same as W Bush is the same as Obama is the same as Trump is the same as Biden is not going hold up under scrutiny.

And again, the criticism of all of these guys is non-stop. The western media eats theie own. What does the Russia media do?

There's a very significant point of view difference at play here between those who live in the US- where no doubt there were major differences between Presidents- and those outside where apart from Trump there's been a pretty consistent neocon/ neolib interventionist foreign policy and economic mindset at play since... Reagan, maybe? Certainly since Clinton. So something like Obamacare would have been a major point of difference for an American, but it meant little to nothing to anyone outside the US. They saw Obama having more or less the same external economic policy as Bush and- despite the rhetoric- an almost identical foreign policy too. Bombing Libya, arming the moderate beheaders in Syria, stepping up drone attacks everywhere, while not shutting down Guantanamo. Guy sure talked a good talk though compared to Bush.

('eats their own' is an overstatement. It's not like you got most of the conservative media going into a feeding frenzy against GWB; and similarly you might have the conservative media foaming about Obama, but not the liberal. Trump is the obvious outlier, but on some things they'd even unite on in praising him- eg bombing Syria. Better than Russian media, sure, but that's not exactly a high bar to pass now is it)

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12 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

No, not really. The idea that Reagan is the same as Bush is the same as Clinton is the same as W Bush is the same as Obama is the same as Trump is the same as Biden is not going hold up under scrutiny.

And again, the criticism of all of these guys is non-stop. The western media eats theie own. What does the Russia media do?

As Zoraptor says, that's from an a insiders point of view (and even then there are zealots and realists). The only difference the rest of the world saw was when Trump came to power. Your main stream media is a laughing stock and in it's own way is just as bad as the Russian media if not worse because it has more influence. This has been demonstrated multiple times in "recent" history. Just to be clear here, I have a very low opinion of all "journalist" (worldwide) in general.

Also if you want to go in to how much change leaders effect in their own countries, again the US side is laughable compared to what was done in those countries. There is a reason why generally the Russian's love Putin and the Chinese love Xi. If you take a look at where Russia and China were 20-ish years ago and where they are now, it's an drastic difference. But to see that you would need to actually look or maybe even go there and see, instead of believing everything that is being served up to you.

As for the current situation, I think, it would not be much different if the US or EU started general mobilization. You would have a lot of people running for the border and trying to dodge it. Also worth noting is that a lot of the people that left Russia did so to dodge sanction and to be able to continue making money.

23 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Epstein had dirt on so many people that if he was killed, and he probably was, that it could have easily not been official government business so to speak.

Considering how smoothly his death was glossed over, I personally would doubt that.

Edited by Sarex

"because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP

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4 hours ago, Sarex said:

As Zoraptor says, that's from an a insiders point of view (and even there there are zealots and realists). The only difference the rest of the world saw was when Trump came to power. Your main stream media is a laughing stock and in it's own way is just as bad as the Russian media if not worse because it has more influence. This has been demonstrated multiple times in "recent" history. Just to be clear here, I have a very low opinion of all "journalist" (worldwide) in general.

Also if you want to go in to how much change leaders effect in their own countries, again the US side is laughable compared to what was done in those countries. There is a reason why generally the Russian's love Putin and the Chinese love Xi. If you take a look at where Russia and China were 20-ish years ago and where they are now, it's an drastic difference. But to see that you would need to actually look or maybe even go there and see, instead of believing everything that is being served up to you.

As for the current situation, I think, it would not be much different if the US or EU started general mobilization. You would have a lot of people running for the border and trying to dodge it. Also worth noting is that a lot of the people that left Russia did so to dodge sanction and to be able to continue making money.

Considering how smoothly his death was glossed over, I personally would doubt that.

Do you  know whats laughable, that you honestly believe  that a state controlled media in an autocracy where  people  can't protest  or criticize  their  government is somehow more  credible than a free media in any country where an independent media  exists

Thats the real  joke 

And when you say "Russians love of Putin" what about those Russians that dont support  him or believe in political  change. They arent allowed a voice and  political  opponents get arrested or  assassinated, great country to live in 

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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9 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

 

There's a very significant point of view difference at play here between those who live in the US- where no doubt there were major differences between Presidents- and those outside where apart from Trump there's been a pretty consistent neocon/ neolib interventionist foreign policy and economic mindset at play since... Reagan, maybe? Certainly since Clinton. So something like Obamacare would have been a major point of difference for an American, but it meant little to nothing to anyone outside the US. They saw Obama having more or less the same external economic policy as Bush and- despite the rhetoric- an almost identical foreign policy too. Bombing Libya, arming the moderate beheaders in Syria, stepping up drone attacks everywhere, while not shutting down Guantanamo. Guy sure talked a good talk though compared to Bush.

('eats their own' is an overstatement. It's not like you got most of the conservative media going into a feeding frenzy against GWB; and similarly you might have the conservative media foaming about Obama, but not the liberal. Trump is the obvious outlier, but on some things they'd even unite on in praising him- eg bombing Syria. Better than Russian media, sure, but that's not exactly a high bar to pass now is it)

Nah,  its very obvious the differences in US presidents and their ideological  views  and then you can easily see the  differences  in their  geopolitical views

It  just requires some effort and understanding and of course  genuine interest but I dont buy the  point that only Americans notice the differences,  its  demonstrably  clear  because you can see and follow both there  domestic  and foreign policies and its very visible and   openly discussed   in the global  media space  

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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epstein death were hardly "glossed over." were front page news. were investigated. and recall we got a deep divided government hereabouts, so those murky and unspecific powerful forces wanting to coverup something terrible is gonna be counter-balanced by those who will want to exploit the situation. 

and as we mentioned previous, the silliness on focusing on epstein death as some kinda mosad or cia action (HA!) ignores the actual manner in which powerful people in this country use the system. epstein's predations were an open secret to many powerful people and apparently at least a couple prosecutors knew as well, but precisce 'cause epstein were influential, he were able to avoid any meaningful legal repercussions for decades. 

'course discussion o' epstein as somehow relevant to navalny being poisoned, imprisoned and possible killed is just more deflection... 'cause.

moon hoaxers. 

*snort*

but serious, the next time some underrepresented group in the US or the uk suffers violence and the wrong is either the fault o' government or the government once again fails to address the problem, see how people react. in response will anybody bring up the bosnian genocide, chinese treatment o' the uyghurs or russian functional making it illegal to be lgbqt in an effort to diminish the perceived wrong o' a western power? how likely is it that a board american patriot scoffs at the chinese and russian state media predictable and insufferable response to underrepresented injustice in the west following the most recent tragedy.

sounds crazy no? it is crazy, but since it happens all the time, you don't even notice anymore.

however, am gonna concede conspiracy theory indulgence would be pointless as an effort at deflection or in efforts to reciprocal whatabout 'cause is no need to go to the conspiracy well to find unquestioned but irrelevant bad acts and villainy by russian, chinese, syrian, north korea, etc. is no shortage o' real examples as 'posed to feverdream nonsense.

regardless, am thinking the whataboutists, deflectors and conspiracy wonks should be called to account for their silly and ridiculous reflexive responses. go along and discuss their pet conspiracy theory or teh rehul evhul that is western media is not gonna help them overcome their issue unless you make 'em face their whatabouting sickness.  be part o' the solution and not the problem. help these folks find a better way.  

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I think it's pretty obvious who is mentally unwell on this forum, not taking any political or ideological leaning in to account. But that is still not an excuse for tossing around words and phrases one has no grasp off. Again I will point you back to the start of the discussion, where a comparison was made and called on.

I am well aware of the deficiencies and wrong of the system around and near me and certainly don't need your warped view or help in understanding it. As for the deficiencies and wrong farther away from me, well sadly I do not have a choice in ignoring it as it will not stop pushing it's own agenda where it affects me.

 

"because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP

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