Gaza - conflict, war, land, water rights, bad colonional legacies...

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, bugarup said:

I would hazard a guess it's more "people who elected terrorists and openly celebrate their carnage" issue than "brown people with funny religions". Because fellow "brown people with funny religions" of Egypt keep their border with Gaza closed too for som

Interesting attitude to civilians getting killed with your first point there. Given Israeli conscription, that could cut the other way in a real nasty way.   Also does ignore the time passed due to election and the ages of people involved. 

Not even sure the relevance of your second point, but seems to be reflexive response these days. 

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/30/canada-clarifies-its-stand-on-a-humanitarian-truce-00124372

Interesting balancing act with domestic politics here, well and I guess in other countries

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'll just come out and say that collective punishment, killing civilians/non-combatants, cutting off access food and (clean)water to civilians/non-combatants, cutting off power and internet to civilians/non-combatants, and specifically targeting journalists are horrific things that can't be justified. Call me crazy, but when I see over 3000 children dead in three weeks I can't help but think that's ****ed and needs to stop. When I see certain world leaders at best voicing some mealy mouthed concerns while still supporting (both politically and materially) killing 1000 kids a week I can't help but think the rules based international order applies different rules to different people.

[HoonDing]

Only difference with Congo, Yemen, Burma, Tigray,... is that the rules-based order needs to bother to pretend to care.

Edited October 31, 2023 by HoonDing

[bugarup]

3 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

So, guess we need to find a reason why it's OK to shoot up Palestinian civilians then- and we're back to them being brown and having the wrong religion.

...I didn't think I was arguing about why it is OK to shoot up civilians because the answer is pretty obviously "It is never OK", even if they celebrate when their ruling terrorists do unspeakable things to neighboring countries civilians.  I'm saying that different reaction to war crimes might be not as primitive and lazy as "Durr dem brown muslims and those other ones while christians", or not only, at least.

[Malcador]

Maybe Israel did learn from Ukraine's marketing, some dude on MSNBC saying that if Hamas isn't stopped they'll come for the rest of us.  Really not buying that, but have to admire the attempt

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

37 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Maybe Israel did learn from Ukraine's marketing, some dude on MSNBC saying that if Hamas isn't stopped they'll come for the rest of us.  Really not buying that, but have to admire the attempt

 

I think it's more like Russia's marketing, Israel is invoking the Nazis while saying they have to "denazify" Gaza as self-defense, and nevermind the last 75 years.

On social media though it's obvious they've got a millennial tumblr girl to take over their account. I think that alone is losing them the online propaganda battle, because everyone hates smol bean posting and Harry Potter.

[Malcador]

The people that died probably cheered on Hamas, so no biggie.

[Zoraptor]

4 hours ago, bugarup said:

...I didn't think I was arguing about why it is OK to shoot up civilians because the answer is pretty obviously "It is never OK", even if they celebrate when their ruling terrorists do unspeakable things to neighboring countries civilians.  I'm saying that different reaction to war crimes might be not as primitive and lazy as "Durr dem brown muslims and those other ones while christians", or not only, at least.

I didn't think you personally were arguing it was OK either. Plenty of people do think that way though, and there's a good reason why that thinking is shonky at best quite apart from the baseline ethics- ie you can easily reverse the 'logic' to use it to justify attacking Israel- which is what I was pointing out.

When it comes right down to it it almost certainly is as primitive as "the side that is like me is the good guys, because I'm a good guy".

Which is, of course, ironic given that both Palestinians and Israelis are semites and you wouldn't actually be able to tell them apart easily if you removed the context.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d9jqx/israel-gaza-leak-displacement-nakba?utm_source=vicenewstwitter

That's not good.

 

[Zoraptor]

Open secret beforehand. May not be official policy but, well, if the Palestinians leave they aren't ever coming back whatever official policy may say.

Guess the question remains whether Austria knew what it was lobbying the EU for when they took the plan to get Egypt to accept refugees to them, or not.

[Malcador]

59 minutes ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d9jqx/israel-gaza-leak-displacement-nakba?utm_source=vicenewstwitter

That's not good.

 

Will be some interesting, if not amusing, UNSC meetings if they do that.

[Mamoulian War]

According to Visegrad news, Yemen declared war on Israel, and already shoot a missile at them. Which hit Jordan.

[Zoraptor]

That'd be the Houthis, not rump Yemen. They've been sending drones along the Red Sea for about a week. One hit the Egyptian town next to Eilat Israel a couple of days ago and a US warship shot another couple down a few days earlier than that. Houthis actually have "'Death' to Israel" as part of their motto which is on their flags.

Rump Yemen can't use the toilet without asking Saudi- or the UAE, if it's around Aden/ Socotra- permission. They're more likely to declare war on the faction backed by the other country than on anyone external.

[pmp10]

9 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d9jqx/israel-gaza-leak-displacement-nakba?utm_source=vicenewstwitter

That's not good.

 

It's just the preferred Israeli policy even if you are normally not allowed to say it out-loud.
US will never allow it anyway, it would damage the idea of 'rules-based order' a little too much.

[xzar_monty]

On 10/31/2023 at 4:20 PM, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I'll just come out and say that collective punishment, killing civilians/non-combatants, cutting off access food and (clean)water to civilians/non-combatants, cutting off power and internet to civilians/non-combatants, and specifically targeting journalists are horrific things that can't be justified. Call me crazy, but when I see over 3000 children dead in three weeks I can't help but think that's ****ed and needs to stop.

It would be very hard to disagree with this, I'd say. However, needs to stop is easy to say. There are no checks in place to make this kind of thing stop. I think both Ukraine and now Gaza are excellent demonstrations of how our potentially superb international organizations like the UN are just great for flower arrangement and stuff, but when the going gets tough, they're useless.

The needs to stop is somewhat equivalent to how an international body condemns or strongly condemns and in very dire situations even unequivocally condemns something that's not a good thing to do in front of the children, but in truth, it means nothing.

Back in the 1980s, there was an overlong but wonderfully conceived sketch on Finnish TV. The Soviet Union had yet again breached Finnish airspace. Finland sent two diplomats on a mission to Moscow, to deal with the question. These guys went to see the Soviet big guy who heard them and then said, "So what?". The Finnish diplomats reiterated their message and made it extremely clear that the Finns were absolutely outraged about the Soviet Union's disregard for everything that's good and decent and nice and wholesome. Again, the Soviet big guy listened to them and then said, "Ok, but so what?". The Finnish diplomats huffed and puffed and said they were fart-sucking angry and outraged and whatnot and so on. Again, the Soviet big guy listened to them and then said, "Yeah, so what?". The Finnish diplomats looked at each other, looked at each other again and were silent for a while.

That's where we're at. It's awful, I agree, and what Israel is doing is several times more cruel and devastating than what Russia has been doing, especially when it comes to the children. But Israel doesn't care one bit. And it needing to stop doesn't actually change anything.

[majestic]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:35 PM, Zoraptor said:

Guess the question remains whether Austria knew what it was lobbying the EU for when they took the plan to get Egypt to accept refugees to them, or not.

General rule of thumb: never assume our current government knows or understands anything, and you're good. Our chancellor's reaction to the steep rise in food prices was let them eat cake, in a 21st century variation, i.e. let them buy burgers at McDonald's. Bunch of clowns wouldn't find their own noses if they weren't attached to their faces.

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

It would be very hard to disagree with this, I'd say. However, needs to stop is easy to say. There are no checks in place to make this kind of thing stop. I think both Ukraine and now Gaza are excellent demonstrations of how our potentially superb international organizations like the UN are just great for flower arrangement and stuff, but when the going gets tough, they're useless.

The needs to stop is somewhat equivalent to how an international body condemns or strongly condemns and in very dire situations even unequivocally condemns something that's not a good thing to do in front of the children, but in truth, it means nothing.

Back in the 1980s, there was an overlong but wonderfully conceived sketch on Finnish TV. The Soviet Union had yet again breached Finnish airspace. Finland sent two diplomats on a mission to Moscow, to deal with the question. These guys went to see the Soviet big guy who heard them and then said, "So what?". The Finnish diplomats reiterated their message and made it extremely clear that the Finns were absolutely outraged about the Soviet Union's disregard for everything that's good and decent and nice and wholesome. Again, the Soviet big guy listened to them and then said, "Ok, but so what?". The Finnish diplomats huffed and puffed and said they were fart-sucking angry and outraged and whatnot and so on. Again, the Soviet big guy listened to them and then said, "Yeah, so what?". The Finnish diplomats looked at each other, looked at each other again and were silent for a while.

That's where we're at. It's awful, I agree, and what Israel is doing is several times more cruel and devastating than what Russia has been doing, especially when it comes to the children. But Israel doesn't care one bit. And it needing to stop doesn't actually change anything.

Why  do people  say the the UNSC or the UN is useless or  a talkshop  because it  cant stop wars like  Ukraine or  the current Israeli vs Palestinian conflict?

The UN doesn't control  any  government   and it cant stop a government from  lying to  the world and then  invading another country, like Russia did with Ukraine

I think its  because most people  dont  realize all the good work and humanitarian work  the UN  and   the UNSC does do. Here is a  list of the UNSC resolutions adopted   by the UNSC just in 2022  and this required 9 yes votes  and no vetoes which tells  us the UNSC agrees  on more  things than they disagree  on 

https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/content/resolutions-adopted-security-council-2022

And then there  are  dozens of UN funded  intuitions like the WHO  and the World Food  Program  that literally are the  lifeline for many  third world  and impoverished  countries that grapple with famine and natural disasters

Its not accurate to  think of the significance   of the  UN as just about Vetoes  in the UNSC.  Its  much more  than that and much  of  the world   would be immeasurably worse  off without  the UN and its various humanitarian institutions 

 

 

[xzar_monty]

38 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Why  do people  say the the UNSC or the UN is useless or  a talkshop  because it  cant stop wars like  Ukraine or  the current Israeli vs Palestinian conflict?

But I didn't say that. I said that our international organizations, such as the UN, are useless in stopping things like this. I did not say they are useless because they cannot stop things like this.

[Malcador]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/01/lindsey-graham-israel-hamas-war-civilian-casualties

Graham is really something else.

[Zoraptor]

An ambulance was hit outside Gaza's main hospital. We know it can't have been Israel though, because no 5-7m wide crater and they only have munitions that make 5-7m wide craters... oh wait, they admitted to hitting it, very strange. Maybe they got some new weapons that don't just make 5-7m wide craters? Some sort of retribution based name might be appropriate, hellfire maybe?

Or perhaps their presentation on the Al Ahli hit was complete bollocks designed to convince idiots who'd accept anything. Not just that absolute trash impact comparison but also a missile break up/ interception that took place over 2km away from the hospital, plus the magical launch sites 4km apart and the amazing pidgin arabic comms interception.

Also, rather a lot of new incidents of civilians being shot up along the 'safe routes'. Yet Netanyahu keeps telling people to use them, for some reason. No doubt it's Hamas wasting munitions on making Israel look bad, Or Something.

The only 'funny' thing about this is how every single 'Russia bad' trope from Mariupol, Bakhmut, a Leppo, Ghouta and every other 'siege' is being carried out by Israel to a far greater extent, to geopolitical crickets when not outright aid from the Rules Based Order. My personal favourite was Biden suggesting that the Palestinian casualty figures were exaggerated when he knew (well, it's Biden so...) that they were regarded as accurate by the US.

Have to wonder though in a chicken/ egg way which came first, France deciding to host a conference for humanitarian aid to Gaza, and Israel deciding to hit AFP (Agence France Presse) and the French Institute as 'terror targets'.

[Malcador]

"Israel has a right to defend itself" is becoming a mantra.

[ComradeYellow]

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231105-we-are-failing-again-un-us-resignations-highlight-splits-over-israel-s-gaza-assault

Whelp, one "good" thing about this ****show, it is exposing deep fissures and contradictions within the West.  If the Russo-Ukraine conflict exposed fissures between The West and the Global South, this one is far more internally hemorrhaging unlike Ukraine.

I wonder where the next tragedy will strike, and we yet see more contradictions manifest.  I mean it's not altogether bad, it takes these things to inch closer to the eldrich truth, but it's just sad that it takes war and death to achieve it.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Gorth
Lets *not* try to circumvent the language filter?

[Zoraptor]

Past 10,000 dead Palestinians today.

Interesting fact: 4104 of those are children, killed by humane precision western backed weapons per the Rules Based Order fired by the most moral army in the world. This amounts to almost exactly 40% of the casualty figure, and is ~the proportion of children in the Gaza strip vs the whole population. ie, it's exactly the proportion you'd expect statistically if Israel were firing off weapons blindly, or deliberately targeting the general population. Weird, eh?

31 Israeli children died out of 1400 to the indiscriminate/ deliberate terrorists of Hamas. That's ~2% of the 1400 Israeli deaths, the overall proportion of children in Israel is 28%. So the indiscriminate/ deliberate attacks managed to kill 1/12 the number of children you'd expect as a proportion for indiscriminate/ deliberate attacks. Weird eh? Israel has managed to kill 135x more children than Hamas did in absolute terms; and using the most generous measure (ie normalising for demographics and relative casualties between the two groups) more than 10x as many in relative terms. That's super duper weird, eh?

Can't wait for all the baffled looks from western politicians next time they burble on about someone they don't like committing war crimes and wonder why the rest of the world won't fall into line behind them.

[melkathi]

31 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Can't wait for all the baffled looks from western politicians next time they burble on about someone they don't like committing war crimes and wonder why the rest of the world won't fall into line behind them.

 

They managed to discredit themselves completely now.

The US sends a nuclear sub to prevent further escalation? How many people will read that as "If you try to stop genocide, we'll nuke you" ?

 

But extremely scary is also what this means about anti-semitism. Netanyahu and his ilk managed to make it extremely hard to explain antisemitism: Jews kill babies? A Zionist conspiracy controls the world? How do you explain to people that is racism when they can point at the thousands of Palestinian children killed or at that Yale professor keeping a list of what companies didn't side with Israel, the watchdog groups demanding people get fired for being pro-Palestine (mind you, the Apple employee did sound like a Nazi)? Anti-Semites can rejoice: they seemingly get all their hate justified, and a lot of good Jewish people around the world will pay the price for a long time.

For the first time since I am in tourism did I have Israeli guests ask what restaurants in the neighbourhood were safe for them to eat in.

 

And I am back out of this discussion. Just had to vent somewhere.

 

P.S.

With the US stepping up military funding of Taiwan, let's hope we don't get a discussion going about a war there soon. Seems right up Biden's agenda...

[Gfted1]

Jordanian C-130 Airdropped Supplies To Gaza Hospital | The Drive