Historical misrepresentation of race in documentaries\movies, whats your view?

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, majestic said:

What do you mean, Bravehart was not a documentary?

Well, it was one of sorts. On how one can make historians very cross.

[Zoraptor]

Cleopatra was Greek, she certainly wasn't sub saharan in the way the documentary writers would like her to be. The Ptolemies were greek, and more inbred than the actual Egyptian pharaohs in their later years. But even before that they married fellow Greeks. You'd need an extremely unusual departure to get any sub saharan ancestory into that.

The big irony is that there are at least three queens they could have picked that could be argued to have been nubian, and hence 'black'*. Hatshepsut, Nefertiti/ Nefertuaten (assuming the same person) and at a pinch Ankesa/-namun -paaten (likely never a regnal pharaoh though). Historically Hatshepsut was ruler of a far more important and powerful country than Cleopatra's comparatively pathetic rump Egypt, she just didn't boff any Romans or get written about by Shakespeare. But then these are documentary writers who started off claiming her Seleucid ancestry made her African. If you wanted genuinely and historically 'black' pharaohs there is also the actual Nubian Dynasty, but they had no female pharaohs. There are at least two other female pharaohs though not much is known about them (Sobeknefru(?) at the end of the old kingdom and one other whose name escapes me).

Fun fact for the day: Nubia has more pyramids than Egypt- and lasted longer as an independent country.

Ultimately there isn't any issue with having a black Cleopatra, the issue is with having her in a documentary. No one (well, I'm sure someone does, but...) really cares about, say, a black Anne Boleyn in a BBC drama or a black Queen Charlotte in Bridgerton because they're dramas, and specifically not documentaries.

*they probably weren't either though and it still has the problem that to most writers black --> west african, because that's usually their ultimate origin due to where most US/ Caribbean slaves originated. Nubians looked nothing like Ghanaians/ Nigerians/ Congolese/ Senegalese though. Unsurprising, after all Tamils look nothing like Vietnamese and they're a similar distance apart. If you had Muttiah Muralitharan playing Ho Chi Minh in a doco you'd get some commentary too.

8 hours ago, Gorth said:

Particularly hilarious in this case, because the Egyptians , as I mentioned in my first post, especially around 30BC were not really related to Arabs (which is today is part of the 90% majority of the current population living in Egypt, 10% being Kopts or some such, descendants of the pre-Arab/Greek population.

Yeah, nah. That's the difference between culture and ethnicity (and to a large extent why it's a load of bunk). Egyptians/ Misr are only culturally arab. They're genetically- and thus 'racially'- very similar to ancient Egyptians, so far as anyone can tell. Which actually is a decent amount here, since they left so many mummies. Replacement Theory is very popular in certain circles because it means that the pyramids and the greatest ancient civilisation for a millenia was built by black africans who all then got killed off by not black enough misr around 660AD- and it's a load of old bollocks as credible and scientific as the pyramids being grain silos, something everyone laughed at Herman Cain for thinking.

You can see the same phenomenon with other people. English, named after a german tribe and continually invaded for over 600 years in the first millenium, are still mostly celtic genetically. Not Roman, not Angle/ Saxon, not Danish or other Norseman, not French. And Turks are almost all Greek, Kurd or Anatolian genetically, the proportion of actual capital T Turkic DNA they have is miniscule.

That's because areas basically never get properly depopulated and invaders almost always end up just replacing the ruling caste, and in the end they get bred out. Unless they're Ptolemaic and the family tree looks more like a plait.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Zoraptor

[Raithe]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I was a little unhappy  by Braveheart, they always portray the English as the worst types of people in that era  like in Rob Roy 

To go with the classic quote:

"Wallace and company screaming for “freedom!” in their Pict-paint while dressed up in 17th-century kilts on a bridge-less meadow is the equivalent of me making a movie about the Battle of Bunker Hill in which I dress the American colonials in Star Trek uniforms, paint their faces with made-up “Native American” designs … and then shot the film in a Florida parking lot."

It might be the classical civilisation student in me, but docu-dramas on historical figures /events always bug me for how much they misrepresent the facts. Sure, dramatise around the facts, be fuzzy with things, craft your own dialogue, but mashing key points of history wrong just for the drama of it, grates on my nerves already. Mostly because how many people will then take it as fact and forget the "docu-drama" element.

 

5 hours ago, Pidesco said:

The British have often been the worst, in any era. Although for a long time, the worst Brits were French.

We are very good at what we do, and at times in history what we did best was Imperialism on the planet. Which historically is not a very nice thing. But, that's because we were better at it then pretty much every other country trying to do not-nice Imperialism. So I don't think it's a particular bad point on the British.

[BruceVC]

12 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

White folks been playing minorities for over a century, so I'd say this is no big deal. I hope Egypt got upset about this abomination as well.

Is this a movie about the actual history of Egypt or is it a fantasy movie? If its a historical movie  I am not  sure what race the gods of Egypt were but you could be right and this could be a good reason for outrage?

[Zoraptor]

It's a fantasy movie with barely a vestige of historicity about it. Not actually too bad either so long as brain is parked in neutral.

The cast was... not very historically accurate in terms of ethnicity from what I remember, though that was the least of its issues. The only really out of place one was the blonde Isis(?) Even with that though, well, Ramses the Great was pretty much 100% confirmed a ginger (yes, seriously).

Doubt we'd see Rupert Grint playing him any time soon though.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Zoraptor

[bugarup]

Wish all those popcorn entertainment bozos would just stop rethreading the same old stuff over and over. Like, before clapping yourself on the shoulder for colorqueer cast in some Agatha Christie's adaptation, maybe ask yourself if the world needs the 114th Agatha Christie's adaptation? And there are whole genres where a cast of diverse people would be a default, like science fiction or cyberpunk...with its signature hatred for corporations...yeah ok, this one's not happening. 

[Pidesco]

15 hours ago, Raithe said:

We are very good at what we do, and at times in history what we did best was Imperialism on the planet. Which historically is not a very nice thing. But, that's because we were better at it then pretty much every other country trying to do not-nice Imperialism. So I don't think it's a particular bad point on the British.

You were indeed very good at genocide and doing an assortment of other evil stuff. Congrats.

[Raithe]

7 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

You were indeed very good at genocide and doing an assortment of other evil stuff. Congrats.

Indeed.

It's the fun thing that morality of the times, and all countries did it. We suffered under it, we inflicted it.  That joyful cycle of history and politics.

Possibly majorly kick-started by the Neo-Assyrians,and just became variations of the norm.

[Pidesco]

1 hour ago, Raithe said:

Indeed.

It's the fun thing that morality of the times, and all countries did it. We suffered under it, we inflicted it.  That joyful cycle of history and politics.

Possibly majorly kick-started by the Neo-Assyrians,and just became variations of the norm.

It's like boxing though. Loads do it, but not everyone is Muhammad Ali.

[BruceVC]

13 hours ago, Pidesco said:

It's like boxing though. Loads do it, but not everyone is Muhammad Ali.

Pidesco its important we  dont become  selective of historical injustice and things like genocide. All European countries and most civilisations did it. Are the English worse than the Ottomans and what about the terrible carnage that the Vikings inflicted on my ancestors the Saxons? The Vikings were responsible for the most unspeakable deeds that included slavery, colonialism, rape, mass murder and killing of Christian monks and priests

Its not  something we like to talk about and I understand that but  we must always be honest  when we look through lens of historical injustice. @Gorth and I have spoken about what his ancestors did to my ancestors but I am sure it upsets him  so I dont like to always bring it up and we havent agreed on redress but I think we close to it?

 

 

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Its not  something we like to talk about and I understand that but  we must always be honest  when we look through lens of historical injustice. @Gorth and I have spoken about what his ancestors did to my ancestors but I am sure it upsets him  so I dont like to always bring it up and we havent agreed on redress but I think we close to it?

Stop that, it was entirely beneficial for the islanders to get exposed to some overseas cultures. Without my ancestors, they wouldn't have had a proper language, but still using that mix of grunting sounds and Latin they were using, not to mention teaching them some really important life skills like warfare and beer drinking! Don't get me started on the spiritual side of things, teaching those heathens some proper gods to worship, like Odin and Thor, instead of kneeling down before dumb rocks, worshiping tree stubs and praying to the sun

[ShadySands]

You don't conquer the world by being nice.

[Malcador]

15 hours ago, ShadySands said:

You don't conquer the world by being nice.

Just don't ask "Why do they hate us?" when something explodes.

[BruceVC]

Here is a really interesting interview on this topic and its highlights from an Egyptian the criticism towards the documentary. Piers Morgan does a good job at discussing both sides and the Egyptian guest criticizes both Hollywood and the Afrocentrism issues about the documentary

I agree with several things he mentions like who built the pyramids

 

[Hurlshort]

Yeah, the one guy brought up the differences between race and nationality, and he was on point. The Egyptian comedian brought up Israel more than once, so it's pretty clear his anger on this casting is deeper than skin color. He also seems pretty concerned with Kevin Hart not building the pyramids.

It's hard to take cries of "Stealing my culture!" over a Netflix documentary seriously when stuff like Rhodesia is in the history books.

 

[HoonDing]

Black is beautiful.

[Chilloutman]

Funny enough. I can't remember any good black actress but I like a lot of black actors - maybe they just can't play? 

 

edit: ok I googled something random and I must say I am not impressed - except Hale Barry I don't know any of them (but Hale is good so)

 

https://www.discoverwalks.com/blog/world/30-most-famous-black-female-actresses/

Edited May 17, 2023 by Chilloutman

[uuuhhii]

42 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

Funny enough. I can't remember any good black actress but I like a lot of black actors - maybe they just can't play? 

 

edit: ok I googled something random and I must say I am not impressed - except Hale Barry I don't know any of them (but Hale is good so)

 

https://www.discoverwalks.com/blog/world/30-most-famous-black-female-actresses/

are people don't watch community anymore

 

yvette nicole brown have the best line delivery in the best comedy show

[Gorth]

53 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

Funny enough. I can't remember any good black actress but I like a lot of black actors - maybe they just can't play? 

 

edit: ok I googled something random and I must say I am not impressed - except Hale Barry I don't know any of them (but Hale is good so)

 

https://www.discoverwalks.com/blog/world/30-most-famous-black-female-actresses/

No idea who put together this list. Maybe the best female black actors just aren't "celebrities" (Halle Berry was the only name I recognized too)? Plenty of outstanding male counter parts though, that also achieved fame. E.g. Samuel L. Jackson, Danny Glover, etc.

Edit: How could I forget James Earl Jones aka "Thulsa Doom"???

 

[LadyCrimson]

I think it's more likely they don't often get offered great or varied film roles. Sure it may be changing these days (especially in TV series) but if you are a "minority" and also female, well, (USA) movie wise, probably not tons of consistent opportunity for meaty roles or A-list making turns to hone or show off abilities (vs. disappear in an ensemble/supporting/hey look it's the wife). From that list I mostly know of Angela Bassett and Alfre Woodward ("You broke your little ships" in STNG film, among other roles ) and I thought Danai Gurira was great in Walking Dead, although being an ensemble show she didn't get tons of screen time.

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by LadyCrimson

[Zoraptor]

I've heard of half of them at least enough to recognise the names andor faces.

That list is pretty weird to be honest, especially if it's actually for most famous. Both for order and for roles played... Zendaya is far better known than most above her, and a most famous list but no mention of Spiderman or Euphoria for her? Indeed, no mention of Davis in the DC films/ Peacemaker (OK, that was a cameo) or King leading Watchmen. Which didn't rate that well, but was critically acclaimed. Maybe the writer doesn't have an HBO sub?

Perhaps the oddest is Candice Patton being only one place below Lupita Nyong'o, who has won an oscar.