Ukraine Conflict

[majestic]

1 hour ago, Mamoulian War said:

There are some MPs on Russian paylist, like Uhrik, and there are a lot “business first” MPs as well.

That's like 70% of all MPs.

[Gorth]

Lets see if justice is blind and works both ways...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63676446

No, the irony isn't lost on me, but lets see if the west can truly hold itself to a higher standard than those they condemn...

 

[pmp10]

Turkey to demand insurance on oil tanker crossing the straits.
With EU oil sanctions soon to take force that is a little surprising.

Especially if any of the oil price-cap plans see the light of day. 

 

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Lets see if justice is blind and works both ways...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63676446

No, the irony isn't lost on me, but lets see if the west can truly hold itself to a higher standard than those they condemn...

That one was partially recorded.
One Russian protested the surrender by running out guns blazing with predictable consequences. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by pmp10

[BruceVC]

https://www.ft.com/content/44647086-b594-4553-9fd4-0476e877a04a

G20 united in condemnation of Putins War, its a lonely world to be Russian 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Lets see if justice is blind and works both ways...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63676446

No, the irony isn't lost on me, but lets see if the west can truly hold itself to a higher standard than those they condemn...

 

The killing of soldiers who surrender is wrong and should be condemned by all 

[Zoraptor]

30 minutes ago, pmp10 said:

That one was partially recorded.

One Russian protested the surrender by running out guns blazing with predictable consequences. 

That's mentioned in the Beeb article. Impossible to know what was actually happening from the footage, especially since the guy shooting was clearly not in a normal Russian uniform and may be not in a uniform at all.

Could be justifiable under Perfidy (to whit faking surrender) but that's generally only applicable to those, well, faking surrender and most of the dead soldiers don't seem to have been faking. Also justifiable if they were shot incidentally which is... unlikely in this case. If the incident was finished and they were genuinely surrendering and were clearly doing so and remained doing so by taking no part and remained prone etc and then were executed it could be a war crime. There's definitely enough doubt as to the circumstances for it not to be prosecuted even if that were the case. Frankly, there are far more clear cut cases that are not going to get prosecuted than this one.

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

..lets see if the west can truly hold itself to a higher standard than those they condemn...

Reckon that horse has well and truly bolted but as above probably not in this case.

[Mamoulian War]

4 hours ago, Gorth said:

Lets see if justice is blind and works both ways...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63676446

No, the irony isn't lost on me, but lets see if the west can truly hold itself to a higher standard than those they condemn...

 

Here is a statement on that incident of Yuri Butusov, a Ukrainian war reporter, who has been critical to some general staff actions in the past, and even pointed at some growing tensions in high command after the fall of Lysychansk. To the contrary of some beliefs, there is at least one case of war crimes committed by Ukrainian soldier/s, which have been already prosecuted and jailed by Ukrainians courts.

 

[kanisatha]

For the record I very clearly and strongly agree that shooting prisoners who've surrendered and are unarmed is wrong and a crime.

However, there is no moral equivalence between the actions of Russian soldiers who are the aggressors and invaders in Ukraine with no justifications whatsoever for their crimes, and Ukrainian defenders whose country is being destroyed and whose civilians are being raped, tortured and murdered before their eyes.

[Lexx]

Well, that one guy f-ed up and killed all his fellow soldiers. The surrendering russians weren't yet searched and secured by the ukraine soldiers, and when that one guy started shooting, everyone opened up because that's what you do. This isn't police in a normal city, but soldiers in a war zone. It sucks that it happened, but it's not the same as what we usually consider executing prisoners of war.

/Edit: To add to that, the guys on the ground could have pulled out a grenade or pistol and caused more ukraine casualties. The situation would be very different if they were already searched and secured before this happened.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Lexx

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, Gorth said:

but lets see if the west can truly hold itself to a higher standard than those they condemn...

 

Are you new here? 

Not entirely sure it's a case that the one guy resisting means they can waste the rest, alas no one talking about this cites much of anything to conclude either way.  The bodies all remaining prone in a line is interesting to note. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Are you new here? 

Malc remember we dont like to use whataboutism on this thread, wasnt that what we agreed?

[Gfted1]

 

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

Not entirely sure it's a case that the one guy resisting means they can waste the rest,

It doesn't, per below, but there's wiggle room/ justification if the killings happened spontaneously under a belief of threat.

Quote

alas no one talking about this cites much of anything to conclude either way.  The bodies all remaining prone in a line is interesting to note. 

There isn't really anything to cite about that, that's just the general principle that you cannot expect people in a warzone to not respond to a threatening situation. eg you're not allowed to shoot children either- but if a kid is shooting at you you can respond because you don't have an obligation to let yourself be killed.

Since there's been a lot of misinformation about it, those surrendering are definitely PoWs by that point in the legal sense, per Article 5, and should not be shot unless there was a reasonable threat justifying it. Search etc is irrelevant, except to perceived threat. Shooting them after the fact would therefore be illegal, so if they really were all shot in the head afterwards having not moved it would very likely be a war crime. Just one that would very likely be too hard to prove.

Quote

The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 [ Link ] from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4 [ Link ] , such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal

emphasis added. And Perfidy from GCP1, since that has come up pretty often as a justification for executing the soldiers

Quote

Art 37. Prohibition of Perfidy

1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:
(a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and
(d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.

2. Ruses of war are not prohibited. Such ruses are acts which are intended to mislead an adversary or to induce him to act recklessly but which infringe no rule of international law applicable in armed conflict and which are not perfidious because they do not invite the confidence of an adversary with respect to protection under that law. The following are examples of such ruses: the use of camouflage, decoys, mock operations and misinformation.

Perfidy won't apply to those on the ground unless they were actively involved. Them all still lying on the ground and seemingly not having moved much at all very strongly suggests they weren't.

I think the general observation would be that if a bunch of Ukrainian soldiers got shot in similar circumstances after someone not wearing their uniform opened fire during a surrender the interpretation of facts would be... significantly different from some, even with the same evidence.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Zoraptor

[pmp10]

16 hours ago, Lexx said:

Well, that one guy f-ed up and killed all his fellow soldiers.

Pretty sure that was deliberate.
Sure - he got them all killed, but surrendering is much less of an option after that.

[xzar_monty]

Some of this stuff, if true, is very hard to understand -- in the sense of "how can it be that bad?".

 

[Lexx]

Great, so based on this guys words, the russian civilians who bought drones for the army are the reason we are still here today.

[xzar_monty]

55 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Great, so based on this guys words, the russian civilians who bought drones for the army are the reason we are still here today.

Fair point!

By the way, contrary to (other) fascist states, Russia has pursued a strict policy of demobilizing(*) and passivising its citizens, instead of getting them to rally in support of its leaders. The explicit aim has been to produce a total split between the people and the political sphere, and it has to be said that this has been extremely successful. For example, the people don't mind that there are no free or fair elections in the country, and haven't been for a long time. The people don't care that they have no say in what Russia does, politically speaking. Some people are active, of course, as they always are, but these people are treated with extreme harshness and even cruelty, and the vast majority of the population just doesn't care.

Here's a very recent selection of brief interviews from the streets of Moscow. Given the size of the city, it is obvious that a selection like this could be produced even if it weren't the majority view, but my sense is that this really does reflect the general views of the city's young population. And for me, this is heartbreaking stuff to watch. Truly.

 

(*) For decades. I'm not talking about the very recent mobilization.

 

[Malcador]

I am surprised anyone stops to answer questions like that, well or any one, from some YouTuber.  Channel is fairly one note now, complete with boring circle jerk comments.

Interesting to see that about the drones, Russians used their Orlans heavily throughout the war though. And recently the Lancets have been active. Well or footage anyway - a podcast with Kofman was saying Ukraine did something similar with their Bayraktar footage, releasing it later than the actual strikes.

Combat footage is great propaganda, and a good way to advertise your terrible taste in music

[Lexx]

I'm wondering about that for a while already - how come that every single one of those videos has absolutely terrible music playing over the footage? Is this like a requirement for them? It needs to have the most obnoxious water mark you can make + the worst music you can find?

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, Lexx said:

I'm wondering about that for a while already - how come that every single one of those videos has absolutely terrible music playing over the footage? Is this like a requirement for them? It needs to have the most obnoxious water mark you can make + the worst music you can find?

I wish they'd use more inappropriate music, I want to watch a Lancet hit a Buk to Mariah Carey, for example.

[Mamoulian War]

13 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Fair point!

By the way, contrary to (other) fascist states, Russia has pursued a strict policy of demobilizing(*) and passivising its citizens, instead of getting them to rally in support of its leaders. The explicit aim has been to produce a total split between the people and the political sphere, and it has to be said that this has been extremely successful. For example, the people don't mind that there are no free or fair elections in the country, and haven't been for a long time. The people don't care that they have no say in what Russia does, politically speaking. Some people are active, of course, as they always are, but these people are treated with extreme harshness and even cruelty, and the vast majority of the population just doesn't care.

Here's a very recent selection of brief interviews from the streets of Moscow. Given the size of the city, it is obvious that a selection like this could be produced even if it weren't the majority view, but my sense is that this really does reflect the general views of the city's young population. And for me, this is heartbreaking stuff to watch. Truly.

 

(*) For decades. I'm not talking about the very recent mobilization.

 

Well this might have been successful for keeping power, but now, when their army/country is in crisis, most people are as always lethargic, and do not care about anything “political” including war. Very hard to get people rallying to support anything.

[xzar_monty]

And yet again: https://tass.com/emergencies/1539571

[Mamoulian War]

In yesterdays report of ISW, there is an analysis of the Makiivka “surrender incident”.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-november-20

[Mamoulian War]

This one is hell of an interesting translation

 

[Mamoulian War]

NATO Parliamentary Assembly Designates Russia Terrorist Regime

https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/news/2022/11/21/7151071/

anyone know, how much weight this has in the international “waters”? Especially with the fact that no one voted against, nor abstained.