Ukraine Conflict - "An empire founded by war has to maintain itself by war"

[BruceVC]

33 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

I'm exactly as outraged as you were when it was Iraqi and Serbian infrastructure on the receiving end, Brucykins.

Though asking for a cite for the natural gas stuff is fair enough.

Zero guesses as to what the 'more profitable market' is.

And do you think if Putin hadnt throttled gas, sabotaged the pipeline   and started trying to blackmail the EU using gas the EU would have found other sources of gas or be prepared to pay more than Pakistan and Bangladesh  can pay?

So who do we really blame for this gas shortage?

 

[Zoraptor]

Russia isn't inducing the breaking of contracts with 3rd parties to bail themselves out and thus exporting their misery to those 3rd parties, Europe is. Europe could, after all, not induce contract breaking, if it wanted to avoid hurting 3rd parties. Which would, of course, immediately be followed by the opening of the Winter Olympics by the head of state of the host country, Satan.

I await eagerly the expressions of dismay when, yet again, the west fails to get support from much of the rest of the world and the complete bafflement as to why; and the amazement that Pakistanis and Bangladeshis aren't 100% happy and satisfied at their gas going to keep some euroweenies' toes warm.

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Russia isn't inducing the breaking of contracts with 3rd parties to bail themselves out and thus exporting their misery to those 3rd parties, Europe is. Europe could, after all, not induce contract breaking, if it wanted to avoid hurting 3rd parties. Which would, of course, immediately be followed by the opening of the Winter Olympics by the head of state of the host country, Satan.

I await eagerly the expressions of dismay when, yet again, the west fails to get support from much of the rest of the world and the complete bafflement as to why; and the amazement that Pakistanis and Bangladeshis aren't 100% happy and satisfied at their gas going to keep some euroweenies' toes warm.

It was  a good link you posted and objective

But as far as  getting support from the world thats complicated and what do we mean by that? Its not going to change the support for the resources for Ukraine or for the open support for Russia from the likes of Belarus or Syria. Its well known who is committed to what side and I cant see that changing because unless you involved in providing resources to either side what difference does a particular countries opinion  make around who  provoked who?

Most countries seem to want UN endorsement which always surprises me because its symbolic. But the votes and resolutions have never gone Russia's way

And as far as broader global support or criticism of the West thats nothing new. I live in a country where at least 2-3  times a month a political analyst or commentator  in our media will blame " colonialism\Western influence " for civil wars or leaderships failures in Africa that have nothing to do with either. Its less and less as the years have gone on and more commentators will explain the issues in Africa are about reasons like bad leadership, corruption or rejection  of governance and accountability

But a certain small group still blame the West even when its not involved. I think this  comes from reality of the history of Colonialism and some  people are still fixated on that time period and ignore how things have changed and most of the problems in Africa are not because of Colonialism 

 

 

 

[xzar_monty]

Incidentally, here's a fresh analysis of the evil West.

 

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Incidentally, here's a fresh analysis of the evil West.

 

This is yet another example of the egregious propaganda  and grandstanding that is common from the Russian state controlled media

This is the official message from the state, you dont find this degree of grandstanding from Western countries. You just dont 

 

[xzar_monty]

It's very interesting that those Western countries where the media environment looks most suspect tend to be the ones that are also suspiciously close to Russia. Hungary being the prime example. I find an awful lot to criticize in the Western media, US media in particular, but there's a world of difference between that and Russian media.

It would be extremely interesting to get to the bottom of the Russian involvement in the US (media, elections, Trump, all that). But it's such a convoluted subject that I don't think we're going to know the details for a long time, if ever. But that is going to be one great field of historical study in the future.

[Mamoulian War]

10 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

lol no. It was 100% Ukraine that did it and many of the sources for that are sources you'd otherwise take as gospel- like UPravda and UNIAN. Then of course there was Kuleba admitting to it in a prank call; and that's without getting into the litany of anonymously sourced western articles. If it was intended as a 'justification' by Russia they'd have picked something of a lot less strategic importance.

The only credible efforts so far as disputation goes is trying to avoid it being a suicide/ homicide bomb that was used- and those often aren't very credible at all per the BBC's "maybe it was a remote control boat [with, uh, 65kg payload, lest we forget]?". Which was either monumental stupidity or active misinformation- as an aside, absolutely hilarious that that obviously and ludicrously incorrect claim makes it onto wikipedia because it comes from a 'credible' source, but that's wikipedia for you.

The targeting switch was almost certainly planned right from the outset and before even that. Indeed, they will also have a plan for targeting just about everyone's infrastructure- and targets for nukes for that matter. That's the nature of planning. They don't really need a justification for it and as above even if they did the Kerch Bridge is an awful choice.

Have you seen the report of FSB investigation, which was linked even here? It is a fairy tale on the same level, that the Iraq had WMDs…

[Mamoulian War]

4 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

I'm exactly as outraged as you were when it was Iraqi and Serbian infrastructure on the receiving end, Brucykins.

Man, you are really delusional, you have absolutely no clue, how and when people are offended, and you talking bull****, that I did not care about what NATO did to Yugoslavia, and USA did to Iraq, is offending me to the max level. As much as it offends me, that someone tells, that I did not care what Milosevic did to Bosniaks, and what did happen between Hutus and Tutsis. **** is happening tens of thousand of years between nations, and dozens of wrongs in the past, still does not make what Russia is doing now, right. No amount of West blaming will wash the Ukrainian blood from Russian hands. The only one responsible for what is now happening in the world is Russia. Period. Because Putin attacked Ukraine, despite deal which has been agreed upon, between Ukraine and Russian ambassadors few days before 24th of February. The only thing what are you achieving with your whataboutism, is to approve all the ****ty unlawful conflicts of the past, because “no one cared” about any previous conflicts as well. And the same counts for all future conflicts. Whenever some idiot like Trump starts a new war in the future, everyone in the West, including their mothers, dogs and hamsters will be chanting “But what about Ukraine” back at you… so please, will all respect due, stick the “What about <insert random country>” somewhere, where the Sun does not shine, I am getting more and more offended by it…

[BruceVC]

I had to share this to remind us of the depth and prevalence of the Russian propaganda machinery and fake news in February , some of it is hilarious  

 

[Lexx]

32 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

whataboutism

Ah, he will soon explain to you that this isn't whataboutism at all and you are wrong because <insert more russia shilling>. Also russia isn't committing any war crimes, because <the west>.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Lexx

[xzar_monty]

@BruceVC: Russia employs a huge army of trolls whose job is to produce this stuff on social media. It's quite an interesting phenomenon; there's a big "troll factory" in St. Petersburg, for instance. Of course it's also very sad: imagine having a job doing that. All the things you could do in your life and with your life... and you'd end up doing that. So soul-destroying (whether you believe in souls or not).

As an extremely stark comparison: I'm now engaged in a fairly big work project concerning the Congolese gynecologist and fairly recent Nobel prize winner Denis Mukwege. It is uplifting just to know that there are people doing the stuff that he does, and get to know the history of it. It brings more sunlight into the world.

Edited November 2, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Lexx]

We (probably) even have those trolls here on the forum. Sometimes they swap names, but it's pretty obvious since there is usually only one very crazy person active at a time. : >

Of course not everyone is a paid russian troll. Some simply fall into the propaganda trap and believe in it for realz.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Lexx

[xzar_monty]

2 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Of course not everyone is a paid russian troll. Some simply fall into the propaganda trap and believe in it for realz.

For me, the most interesting phenomenon is the Westerner who lives in a Western society and is extremely cynical about it, often expresses some measure of sympathy and understanding of anything that countries like Russia do and never fails to bring up the injustices of the West. A person like this isn't necessarily a troll, a conspiracy theorist or someone who has swallowed the propaganda. It can be something else as well. This baffles me somewhat.

Now, I am not blind to the injustices of the West, which are indeed obvious and manifold. But to constantly bring them up in a discussion expressly dedicated to the Ukraine conflict is just odd, especially if there is a simultaneous dismissal or denial of what Russia is constantly doing. I have seen rather a lot of this during this conflict, in many places.

[BruceVC]

Just now, Lexx said:

We even have those trolls here on the forum. Sometimes they swap names, but it's pretty obvious since there is usually only one active at a time.

There are different types of people who support Putins War and why they say what they say on the Internet. Some of them are paid trolls and this is a well known media  strategy of the Russian state as Monty mentioned  but others are  " pro-Russian"  for other reasons like they more anti-US, anti-Capitalism or they angry about Western influence and ostensible imperialism. Some of them normally wouldnt support  Russia, they just support anyone who is opposed the West for a variety of reasons 

IMO the Russian trolls like Comrade and Vals arent paid trolls, they more anti-US\West so they just repeat certain narratives and have certain views that align with supporting Putins War

 

 

[Lexx]

Generally I'd agree, but they spend so much time and energy on proving that the west is bad and russia is doing nothing wrong in a public forum thread with little impact on anything that I do start to question if it's either autism, extreme boredom, or a paid job.

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Generally I'd agree, but they spend so much time and energy on proving that the west is bad and russia is doing nothing wrong in a public forum thread with little impact on anything that I do start to question if it's either autism, extreme boredom, or a paid job.

Yes, its logical to come to that conclusion. But many of these guys have for years had certain " anti-Western " ideological views and they have been discussing these grievances  for years. They based some of their  views on geopolitical events like  Bosnia and Iraq where you can criticize the West in certain valid  ways

And Russia was seen as somehow being the antithesis to the " evil, Capitalism West " and to them provided a " better " system. But  they ignored the rising and constant militancy and hegemony  from Putin during the years because there issues with the West was greater 

But when Russia invaded Ukraine and demonstrated everything, and worse,  that they said was dysfunctional and wrong with Western  " imperialism " it shattered there narrative and what some of them have believed for the last 10- 30 years or so 

And I can imagine how jarring this must be. Suddenly Russia was the liar, the warmonger and doing everything they claim made the West the bad guy

And some of them have accepted this new reality but many haven't. Thats another reason why they seem to spend time defending Russia or ignoring things like blatant war crimes and atrocities. They just cant accept their ideological views have been turned upside down 

A simplistic analogy is you find out your parents arent your parents anymore, they actually stole you from someone else. It hard to accept and how do you emotionally respond....lots of things to consider ( and again its not the same but its similar )

 

 

[xzar_monty]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

And some of them have accepted this new reality but many haven't. Thats another reason why they seem to spend time defending Russia or ignoring things like blatant war crimes and atrocities. They just cant accept their ideological views have been turned upside down

Now, not having been on the forums for very long, I cannot say whether your analysis is correct when it comes to this particular question and these particular people. But the more general human truth is that changing long-held beliefs and convictions can be extremely hard(*). As strange as it may sound, this can be a problem even in the realm of science. I mean, after all, it was Max Planck who said that the progress of science advanves one funeral at a time. Or more precisely: “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

My (limited) understanding is that if you want to change a bad habit, for instance, you're likely to need at least six months or persistent daily practice. Never get discouraged at the start: it is going to take a long time, and it's good to know this.

 

(*) Quite possibly even at the level of the physiology of the brain. I mean, memory and convictions are physical reality: synapses and engrams and all that, encoded and embedded in the brain. But this is conjecture, because we know so little about this stuff. But it's interesting how the brain holds the qualities of both rigidity and plasticity at the same time.

Edited November 2, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Now, not having been on the forums for very long, I cannot say whether your analysis is correct when it comes to this particular question and these particular people. But the more general human truth is that changing long-held beliefs and convictions can be extremely hard(*). As strange as it may sound, this can be a problem even in the realm of science. I mean, after all, it was Max Planck who said that the progress of science advanves one funeral at a time. Or more precisely: “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

My (limited) understanding is that if you want to change a bad habit, for instance, you're likely to need at least six months or persistent daily practice. Never get discouraged at the start: it is going to take a long time, and it's good to know this.

 

(*) Quite possibly even at the level of the physiology of the brain. I mean, memory and convictions are physical reality: synapses and engrams and all that, encoded and embedded in the brain. But this is conjecture, because we know so little about this stuff. But it's interesting how the brain holds the qualities of both rigidity and plasticity at the same time.

Agreed, any long standing belief can be hard to change. Its not just political, its religious and things like science and I also agree its partly hardwired into our psyches 

But as you said our views can be changed but we must first accept we were wrong. And that doesnt mean you wrong about everything. True story,  until about 6-7  years ago I couldn't admit I was wrong in any forum debate or debate in RL. I inherited that from most of the men in my family subconsciously who always like to be right.  I was  insecure especially in debates and for reason I felt I couldn't just accept or admit  my view wasn't correct

Anyway I had a paradigm shift in RL and on the Internet  and I changed and I genuinely mean it when I say  its good to admit you wrong, if you are,  because then you can correct the mistake and or acknowledge what you didn't know. So you update your previous views, it builds strength and character. It doesnt make you weaker because end of the day all our views are about us and what we believe. They not about what others think about you 

Of course we all believe what we say, we dont intentionally want to wrong. Who has a debate thinking they wrong? 

But in life sometimes we are wrong and that's healthy and normal 

 

 

 

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Incidentally, here's a fresh analysis of the evil West.

 

I expect to see her in a gulag within a fortnight... officially there is no "war", just a "special military operation"

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Lexx said:

Ah, he will soon explain to you that this isn't whataboutism at all and you are wrong because <insert more russia shilling>. Also russia isn't committing any war crimes, because <the west>.

Whataboutism has a definition though, still amazed you people can't get that.  He's never claimed they're not war crimes.  And you have to admit the moral outrage is rather amusing when you remember things over a mere 30 years.

Especially when he's talking to someone as full of **** as Bruce.

 

[xzar_monty]

22 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I expect to see her in a gulag within a fortnight... officially there is no "war", just a "special military operation"

I think there's two things, a special military operation in Ukraine, and a war against the West.

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

I await eagerly the expressions of dismay when, yet again, the west fails to get support from much of the rest of the world and the complete bafflement as to why; and the amazement that Pakistanis and Bangladeshis aren't 100% happy and satisfied at their gas going to keep some euroweenies' toes warm.

Well, you hope bafflement, more often than not it's some sort of racism (highlight of one such conversation was a guy amazed that South Africa could make guns, as it's jump from spears to that.  Americans...)

Speaking of which, grain deal is back on, Erdogan and Putin had a meet

Can interpret this however you like, Erdogan intimidating Putin, Putin being more concerned with Third World.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Malcador

[xzar_monty]

5 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, you hope bafflement, more often than not it's some sort of racism (highlight of one such conversation was a guy amazed that South Africa could make guns, as it's jump from spears to that.  Americans...)

With a population of over 300M you're going to get everything, so to say "Americans" on the basis of this guy doesn't exactly sound kind.

[xzar_monty]

31 minutes ago, Malcador said:

And you have to admit the moral outrage is rather amusing when you remember things over a mere 30 years.

Change can be abrupt. Think slavery, the US, 1860 vs. 1870. A mere 10 years. There are plenty of other examples.

This is more complex, of course, but change can be abrupt.

[Malcador]

15 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

With a population of over 300M you're going to get everything, so to say "Americans" on the basis of this guy doesn't exactly sound kind.

You cracked the case, it wasn't meant to be nice.  Was on Reddit though, so was scraping the barrel when it comes to talking about the war (usually it's ok, but big news items brings trash).  At least it's a break from guys jerking it to "orcs die" and "cargo 200".

 

4 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Change can be abrupt. Think slavery, the US, 1860 vs. 1870. A mere 10 years. There are plenty of other examples.

This is more complex, of course, but change can be abrupt.

Don't hold your breath on that one.