Ukraine Conflict - "An empire founded by war has to maintain itself by war"

[majestic]

40 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

And then when you say " State only owns percentage of stocks in several companies" that means they minority shareholders but is it  still tax payers money that pays for this minority shareholding?

What is the reason the state owns stocks in private sector companies?

Well, not a Nordic country here, but a similar concept to what we employ here I'd wager. Owning non-controlling minority shares (sometimes known as blocking minorty) in companies that serve public interests (education, energy supply, healthcare, infrastructure, etc.) allows the state to block any actions taken by the majority of shareholders that it perceives as against public interest. One of the reasons, amongst others (dividends), why Austria is holding more than 30% shares of the OMV concern.

Edited November 3, 2022 by majestic

[xzar_monty]

This, unfortunately, is not surprising. Very small news from Poland: a place rented for the needs of the Russian embassy is returned. Not in prime condition.

 

[Lexx]

How the hell did they ruin the building like this in such a short time.

[xzar_monty]

The damp and some of the ceiling damage cannot be brand new. Otherwise it looks like there's been a demolition crew there. I don't know if you've seen videos of the places that the new Russian mobilized have been sent to, inside Russia. Some of the locations look absolutely terrifying, and the mobilized soldiers have indeed been terrified: not one working shower, every single toilet blocked, trash all over the place, beds unusable, etc. It's a lack of care taken almost to an extreme.

[BruceVC]

40 minutes ago, Elerond said:

In Finland universities are free for Finnish and EU/ETA decree students. Universities started to collect tuition from students outside of EU/ETA in 2017. If you have not enrolled in university you can still study university course through so called Open University, but then courses cost 15€/study point (26.67h worth of estimated work)

It depends on company, usually they want representative in company board because of strategic significance of company. In not so strategically important companies they just own stocks through investment funds, to increase state income.

For example state owns over 50% of shares in Finland's largest energy company Fortum, and closer to 40% in Finland's largest fuel company Neste, to ensure that they are able to give their opinions how those companies operate. State also owns big share of Finnish postal  company Posti and Finland's largest railway company VR. EU rules put limits on what companies states can fully own and control, which is why Finland privatized most of state owned companies in 1990s when it seek membership in EU.

Pension companies in Finland are mostly private mutual insurance companies (so they are owned by their customers)

 

 

That makes  sense and the state owning certain  amounts of stocks ensures that strategic decisions are not  badly by  certain companies and boards. Its the same  reason Majestic mentioned in Austria 

I support that for certain companies. But you need an effective government for that to be sustainable and acceptable. In SA the PIC doesnt get involved in the decisions companies make even though they are minority shareholders 

We have far too many examples of rampant corruption in the Public sector for them to get involved in corporate decisions. But  if  this was reduced the reality would be different for this type of joint corporate influence 

 

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

This, unfortunately, is not surprising. Very small news from Poland: a place rented for the needs of the Russian embassy is returned. Not in prime condition.

 

Impressive that they cancelled the lease in April but only now did they kick them out.

Also they are apparently wrecking cell towers, boats, as well.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Malcador

[bugarup]

23 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Let's be blunt though, celebrating the moral superiority and fantastic response Europe achieved by, uh, taking the 3rd world's resources is an absolutely terrible look for anyone not western. It's also hilarious when you're constantly told that colonialism is 'in the past'.

And what do you think Europe should do? Please don't say "Give in to blackmail by disgusting little piece of **** tyrant". I also don't get you constantly being snide at Europe's so-called "moral superiority" any time some European official calls out russia on its atrocities. How do you think that horror of a country's crimes should be called out? Like, "Russia, you are bad, but we are WORSE! Also hypocrites! Please forgive us Iraq and Iran, Serbia and Afghanistan, La Conquista, the Inquisition, ****ing up China with opium and lets throw it in Black Plague for good measure?", something like that?

Also, Mamoulian War already said it, but I'll just repeat it for yer daily emphasis: "taking the 3rd world's resources " happens only because russia blackmails Europe with cutting off energy. Why it blackmails Europe? Because it wants its sanctions lifted. Why it got sanctioned? Because it attacked its neighboring country and as of right now still keeps destroying it, one civilian infrastructure after another. It all happens because russia started this war. It is russia's fault.

 

[Malcador]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-government-rejects-german-request-re-export-swiss-ammunition-ukraine-2022-11-03/

People hating on the Swiss for this

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, bugarup said:

And what do you think Europe should do? Please don't say "Give in to blackmail by disgusting little piece of **** tyrant". I also don't get you constantly being snide at Europe's so-called "moral superiority" any time some European official calls out russia on its atrocities. How do you think that horror of a country's crimes should be called out? Like, "Russia, you are bad, but we are WORSE! Also hypocrites! Please forgive us Iraq and Iran, Serbia and Afghanistan, La Conquista, the Inquisition, ****ing up China with opium and lets throw it in Black Plague for good measure?", something like that?

Also, Mamoulian War already said it, but I'll just repeat it for yer daily emphasis: "taking the 3rd world's resources " happens only because russia blackmails Europe with cutting off energy. Why it blackmails Europe? Because it wants its sanctions lifted. Why it got sanctioned? Because it attacked its neighboring country and as of right now still keeps destroying it, one civilian infrastructure after another. It all happens because russia started this war. It is russia's fault.

As previous, Europe could just do with less energy, it isn't impossible. That is, after all, 100% what Europe is forcing Bangladesh and Pakistan etc to do- and whatever argument you make that it isn't really Europe's fault and they're being forced to take others' supplies applies far, far more strongly to those others. After all, even if it isn't really Europe fault it absolutely 100% isn't Pakistan or Bangladesh's, but they're the ones made to suffer. Shouldn't have an expectation that someone on €1000 p/a should be happy to sacrifice what energy they have so that someone on €120000 p/a can keep their underfloor heating on instead of switching it off.

Realpolitik actually dictates what happens of course, so the supplies are taken because Europe can, and if they didn't politicians would lose their jobs (and yeah, some people would probably die too but realpolitik wise that's only a problem, for you, when it's blamed on you so it loops back); and it's dressed up the way it is because that looks good to the population. The big thing of course is the hypocrisy. Europe expects solidarity from others and will cheerfully label less than fulsome support for them as support for Russia, war crimes etc etc. Unsurprisingly, they see Europe as having zero solidarity with them while being immensely sanctimonious about it too- and not for the first time, either.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Bartimaeus]

On 11/2/2022 at 2:17 PM, Zoraptor said:

just grab Bartimaeus's script ffs it's there in his sig

Whoa, whoa, hold on a second here...that link is just a recommendation to make use of the normal ignore list (while also carrying an implicit suggestion to exercise self-control), not my filters. The filters are a paid service, .

(Okay, not really, but yeah, not a link to the filters. Ironically, I barely ever use the filters these days because...well, they were a useful tool for learning to stop caring and use self-control, and I've almost entirely mastered that at this point - pretty much the only time I look at one of the most egregious posters who are on my ignore lists' posts is if they happen to post directly after mine, otherwise I assume they're not talking to me and there's no need to look. I'm sure the moderators appreciate that, because in years past, I used to kind of spam them with reports for BruceVC and company's, how would one phrase it...unreadable posts? That seems appropriately non-inflammatory while still being somewhat insulting).

Edited November 3, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

27 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

The filters are a paid service, .

Bartimaeus confirmed to be Elon Musk.

[bugarup]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

As previous, Europe could just do with less energy, it isn't impossible. That is, after all, 100% what Europe is forcing Bangladesh and Pakistan etc to do- and whatever argument you make that it isn't really Europe's fault and they're being forced to take others' supplies applies far, far more strongly to those others. After all, even if it isn't really Europe fault it absolutely 100% isn't Pakistan or Bangladesh's, but they're the ones made to suffer. Shouldn't have an expectation that someone on €1000 p/a should be happy to sacrifice what energy they have so that someone on €120000 p/a can keep their underfloor heating on instead of switching it off.

Realpolitik actually dictates what happens of course, so the supplies are taken because Europe can, and if they didn't politicians would lose their jobs (and yeah, some people would probably die too but realpolitik wise that's only a problem, for you, when it's blamed on you so it loops back); and it's dressed up the way it is because that looks good to the population. The big thing of course is the hypocrisy. Europe expects solidarity from others and will cheerfully label less than fulsome support for them as support for Russia, war crimes etc etc. Unsurprisingly, they see Europe as having zero solidarity with them while being immensely sanctimonious about it too- and not for the first time, either.

I do agree about needless excessive consumption that could be curbed in these trying times and that's it's OK for outbidden (is there such a word even?) countries to feel slighted and owe nothing to Europe, and that is indeed absolutely 100% not their fault, which is because it is 100% absolutely russia's fault. Wouldn't you think that being cross with Europe, but not with the actual culprit - russia - in this situation is, well, a tad hypocritical?

As for realpolitik, why do you think Europe expects solidarity? My knowledge on realpolitik is admittedly shallow, but I don't think it ever included expecting to get anything for free. I mean, it would be nice to get free stuff of course, but not exactly expected? It's more like "It might be mutually beneficial for us all if you took our side, and if you want to go spanner in the works on us we can make it, shall we say, quite unbeneficial for you", which is just politics. Also, what countries get labeled as war criminals and Russia supporters when they are not? Because the opposite thing IMO is more prevalent right now, i.e. countries who quietly help russia fly under radar (or more likely everyone knows but nobody says anything).

[Zoraptor]

6 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Wouldn't you think that being cross with Europe, but not with the actual culprit - russia - in this situation is, well, a tad hypocritical?

Not really. They're innocent (in this matter) and uninvolved parties to an economic war half a world away who are, fundamentally, the ones actually losing their energy supply- they have an absolute right to be pissed about it. The only disputation is the degree of blame they should assign to one or another party further up the chain. That's not really an issue of hypocrisy because there's no inconsistency in stated motivation vs actions, only a disagreement as to who is ultimately to blame.

Might help with an analogy: if Russia takes Europe's lunch money that would be bad, sure. But if Europe takes someone else's lunch money to replace that chances are that the excuse "well Russia took ours first" isn't going to wash with the person who ends up not having lunch. Because it isn't Russia taking it from them, it's Europe, and it isn't Russia ordering it; Europe could just go hungry for a bit. Especially when Russia, inevitably, offers to do their best to replace the victim's stolen lunch. They don't see Russia taking their lunch, they see it trying to help, the person they see taking it is Europe. Of course, it can easily be argued that that is an unfair attribution of blame, but it is how blame usually works.

Quote

As for realpolitik, why do you think Europe expects solidarity?

Realpolitik certainly doesn't have room for concepts like solidarity, it's a transactional/ objective theory where concepts like 'solidarity' is just shared, often transitional, interests and a good way to dress things up for the populace-- "..no permanent friends or enemies, only interests" is perhaps the epitome of the theory. The problem is that while Europe does do things for realpolitik reasons that isn't the explanation they give for it, because that explanation in this case fundamentally clashes with the ideals they publicly espouse. It's the clash between those espoused ideals (even if not really believed) and practical reality that leads to the hypocrisy, because they're at odds with one another.

[Chilloutman]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

Might help with an analogy: if Russia takes Europe's lunch money that would be bad, sure. But if Europe takes someone else's lunch money to replace that chances are that the excuse "well Russia took ours first" isn't going to wash with the person who ends up not having lunch. Because it isn't Russia taking it from them, it's Europe, and it isn't Russia ordering it; Europe could just go hungry for a bit. Especially when Russia, inevitably, offers to do their best to replace the victim's stolen lunch. They don't see Russia taking their lunch, they see it trying to help, the person they see taking it is Europe. Of course, it can easily be argued that that is an unfair attribution of blame, but it is how blame usually works.

Well you are confusing trade with theft. Europe is not stealing it, its buying it, so someone else is gaining on this. I know where you are going but its on shaky legs. 

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Not really. They're innocent (in this matter) and uninvolved parties to an economic war half a world away who are, fundamentally, the ones actually losing their energy supply- they have an absolute right to be pissed about it. The only disputation is the degree of blame they should assign to one or another party further up the chain. That's not really an issue of hypocrisy because there's no inconsistency in stated motivation vs actions, only a disagreement as to who is ultimately to blame.

Might help with an analogy: if Russia takes Europe's lunch money that would be bad, sure. But if Europe takes someone else's lunch money to replace that chances are that the excuse "well Russia took ours first" isn't going to wash with the person who ends up not having lunch. Because it isn't Russia taking it from them, it's Europe, and it isn't Russia ordering it; Europe could just go hungry for a bit. Especially when Russia, inevitably, offers to do their best to replace the victim's stolen lunch. They don't see Russia taking their lunch, they see it trying to help, the person they see taking it is Europe. Of course, it can easily be argued that that is an unfair attribution of blame, but it is how blame usually works.

Realpolitik certainly doesn't have room for concepts like solidarity, it's a transactional/ objective theory where concepts like 'solidarity' is just shared, often transitional, interests and a good way to dress things up for the populace-- "..no permanent friends or enemies, only interests" is perhaps the epitome of the theory. The problem is that while Europe does do things for realpolitik reasons that isn't the explanation they give for it, because that explanation in this case fundamentally clashes with the ideals they publicly espouse. It's the clash between those espoused ideals (even if not really believed) and practical reality that leads to the hypocrisy, because they're at odds with one another.

Im not as clever as you guys and I dont use words like realpolitik because its confusing so I focus on what  is happening now . Russia invaded a sovereign country and because of the Western sanctions and inefficiencies  of the Russian military campaign Putins plans of conquest is failing. 

Putin decided to throttle gas to Europe and vatniks cheered " Europeans  freezing to  death ". The consequence of gas blackmail wasnt initially  hyperbole because of the European dependency on gas from Russia  so Russia could directly impact the lives  of millions of people in the EU because he decided to invade Ukraine ....the EU didnt invade Russia

The primary responsibility of most governments is the wellbeing of their own citizens so the EU was forced to find other markets for gas, they didnt do this until Russia used gas blackmail as a response to  sanctions

Apart from the fact I have family and friends who live in the EU there are also loads of people who live in the EU on this forum and Putin's War and actions directly impacts them. This is not some hypothetical debate about Realpolitik. This is about something that directly influences  people's lives I know 

So no, Im not blaming the EU for responding to Putins War and the consequences of it 

 

[Zoraptor]

4 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

Well you are confusing trade with theft. Europe is not stealing it, its buying it, so someone else is gaining on this. I know where you are going but its on shaky legs. 

True, but that's why it's an analogy; it simplifies the thought process by using a figurative comparison. I'd say it is a fair simplification though, as Russia also has only figuratively stolen Europe's gas.

(I've said before what my opinion is of the energy suppliers making windfall profits breaking contracts- it's... not great. And in that case I was pretty sympathetic to Europe because the context there was the US was demanding more aid to Ukraine from Europe, while making 600% mark ups on gas supply. Not really any solidarity being shown in that case, and if the US wants more aid from Europe more money would definitely be available if they weren't being gouged by the US on energy pricing. But ultimately, still not those 3rd world countries fault, and their gas is still going because of something Europe could avoid doing if they really wanted to)

Edited November 4, 2022 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Whoa, whoa, hold on a second here...that link is just a recommendation to make use of the normal ignore list (while also carrying an implicit suggestion to exercise self-control), not my filters. The filters are a paid service, .

(Okay, not really, but yeah, not a link to the filters. Ironically, I barely ever use the filters these days because...well, they were a useful tool for learning to stop caring and use self-control, and I've almost entirely mastered that at this point - pretty much the only time I look at one of the most egregious posters who are on my ignore lists' posts is if they happen to post directly after mine, otherwise I assume they're not talking to me and there's no need to look. I'm sure the moderators appreciate that, because in years past, I used to kind of spam them with reports for BruceVC and company's, how would one phrase it...unreadable posts? That seems appropriately non-inflammatory while still being somewhat insulting).

Well Im  just  glad you got through it, I can only imagine how traumatic it must have been to create a script 

[BruceVC]

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/iaea-finds-no-evidence-of-possible-use-of-dirty-bombs-in-ukraine/ar-AA13HlPG 

 

Zero evidence of the Ukrainians creating a dirty bomb. Of course its no surprise, you get use  to the Russian lies and propaganda

[BruceVC]

https://www.theinteldrop.org/2022/11/03/russians-hack-american-delta-command-control-system-complete-battle-plans-for-ukraine-revealed/

Ruskies may have hacked US command system, they must change military plans if true?

[Lexx]

Here is some more about it:

Quote

According to the editor-in-chief of "Censor.NET" Yury Butusov, in August, there was an incident when, due to the negligence of two servicemen, their computers were infected with a virus, and the enemy gained access to the system. After receiving the passwords, the Russians entered the program. The hack didnʼt happen, Butusov claims, “because the enemy got the passwords, and Deltaʼs security provides such a threat, the Russians were able to see only a small amount of information about their troops that were available to careless users.

The Russians saw one of the fragments of the system that showed the location of their troops in the south of Ukraine, and 13 minutes later, their access was blocked," the journalist reported.

https://babel.ua/en/news/86457-the-ministry-of-defense-denied-the-disinformation-of-the-russians-about-the-hacking-of-the-system-used-by-the-armed-forces-on-the-battlefield

Edited November 4, 2022 by Lexx

[Elerond]

Here is non-computer translated English version

https://news.yahoo.com/butusov-says-russian-claims-ukraine-170400235.html

It seem that attack occurred in August. Ukraine was able to do successful counter offensive in Kharkiv after the breach, so it maybe that Ukraine's surprise re planning of their counter offence was because of this data breach.

Russia seems to have published data about their attack just to spread doubt in Ukraine troops and increase morale of their own troops

[BruceVC]

Just now, Lexx said:

Here is some more about it:

https://babel.ua/en/news/86457-the-ministry-of-defense-denied-the-disinformation-of-the-russians-about-the-hacking-of-the-system-used-by-the-armed-forces-on-the-battlefield

Thanks for sharing, thats a good link and Im glad its exaggerated 

[Lexx]

The worst is probably how this will be used in propaganda now. Inb4 "russia says the truth and must be believed since they have full access to command data."

/Edit: And if they really would still have access to the system, they probably wouldn't talk about it in public.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Lexx

[Mamoulian War]

Another piece of puzzle uncovering the planned attrocities on Ukrainians by Russia…

 

[Mamoulian War]

And here is the link to the report on Youtube.