Random video game news... RNG 4 EVA

[majestic]

  https://www.ign.com/articles/bayonetta-voice-actor-hellena-taylor-says-she-didnt-reprise-the-role-in-bayonetta-3-as-she-was-only-offered-4000

Quote

"Fat cats cream off the top and leave us the rotten crumbs. You know, in England right now, there are nurses going to food banks to feed their children. This is not right, this is not acceptable. It impacts mental health. Because of it, I suffered from depression and anxiety. I worried that I was going to be on the streets. That terrified me so much that once, I was suicidal.

I am not afraid of the non-disclosure agreement, I can’t even afford to run a car. What are they going to do, take my clothes? Good luck to them. Bayonetta always stands up for those with less power, and stands up for what’s right, and in doing this, you stand with her."

Above quote from the IGN article, taken from a video of hers, apparently. Cannot afford to run a car right now, is afraid that she might end up on the street, but does not take a 4000$ contract and whatever she may or may not make from promotions, i.e. the later complained about possibility that Jennifer Hale could strut around pretending to be Bayonetta. Sounds legit. Even if she would spend a month in the voice booth and have no time to voice something else (now, my experience is limited, but something tells me this is not the case).

Time for some google-fu.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/july2022

Sadly that's average income, not median, which would be a better figure to compare. She really is a right champion of the little people, is she not?

Quote

"They now have a new girl voicing her over, and I love actors and I wish her all the joy in the world and all the jobs, but she has no right to say she is Bayonetta," Taylor said. "She has no right to sign merchandise as Bayonetta. Any more than I have the right to sign as Eva Green, even though I was her parrot in Golden Compass. That betrayal[sic!]* is hers, and hers alone. They’ll probably try to do a spin-off with Jen, don’t buy that either."

*Poster's note, presumably meant to be portrayal, probably an error by the IGN writer.

Yeah, something tells me the 'new girl' doing the Bayonetta voice acting does not need to sign Bayonetta merch and most certainly does not need to pretend to be Bayonetta.

Now for the conclusion, at a first glance, 4000$ for a somewhat iconic voice role for a 450m$ franchise does sound insulting. On the other hand, we're talking about the English dub of a Japanese game, and one where the second entry was considered a financial failure which was actually cancelled and only released because Nintendo picked it up for its ill-fated Wii U. It did have a stronger Switch re-release, but that came bundled with the original Bayonetta.

Between writing directly to Hideki Kamiya, which he probably appreciated very much, Japanese (corporate) culture being what it is, the jabs at Jennifer Hale and the woe is me call to boycott the game, I shall be honest: this does not a good case make. Especially for a woman who has a handful of voice acting and acting credits to her name, and let us face it, at the end of the day, she is Bayonetta, not Commander Shepard.

Well, but it worked, she has got the Twatteria raging for fair wages for her. Because, you know, that poor nurse at the food bank probably needs to put two in months worth of back breaking, physically and mentally exhausting work to earn that kind of money, while Ms. Taylor's work is sitting in a recording booth, wearing her pajamas and sipping on some coffee (paraphrased quote by Mark Hamill on why he does more voice acting than regular acting). Or not, because Jennifer Hale seemed to have no problems with whatever Plantium offered her. Which likely is more than what Ms. Taylor would have earned, but how much we will probably never know.

I will agree that the offer is low and she probably has a point insofar as that her voice is probably worth more for Bayonetta 3, however, time and sales will tell. On the other hand, she went to an audition, got an offer, and was unhappy with it. The rest? The rest smells like hurt ego.

[Hurlshort]

It seems like they should have a decent point system like movies do. I think all of the other departments should also be getting a decent cut as well, so it doesn't have to come at the cost of artists and such.

edit: How much does majestic think nurses make? They should be making six figures in most places.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Hurlshort

[Keyrock]

Yeah, I don't know whether $4000 is an insulting offer or not, I'm not in that industry, I could tell you what an insulting offer for a trucker is, but as far as voice acting... 

That said, I have zero sympathy for the woe is me I can't pay my bills spiel given that she, by her own admission, turned down a $4000 pay day, and, again by her own admission, had nothing else going on at the time. If you're really that hard up you take what you can get. Trust me, I've been dirt poor, I know.

[Hurlshort]

2 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

Yeah, I don't know whether $4000 is an insulting offer or not, I'm not in that industry, I could tell you what an insulting offer for a trucker is, but as far as voice acting... 

That said, I have zero sympathy for the woe is me I can't pay my bills spiel given that she, by her own admission, turned down a $4000 pay day, and, again by her own admission, had nothing else going on at the time. If you're really that hard up you take what you can get. Trust me, I've been dirt poor, I know.

You say that, but there is a point where the money offered for a haul doesn't cover all the expenses involved with operating a rig. My mother-in-law had to close the doors of her trucking company because her small fleet couldn't compete with the bigger fleets that could lowball offers. $4k seems like a lowball offer for an actor.

[Keyrock]

4 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

You say that, but there is a point where the money offered for a haul doesn't cover all the expenses involved with operating a rig. My mother-in-law had to close the doors of her trucking company because her small fleet couldn't compete with the bigger fleets that could lowball offers. $4k seems like a lowball offer for an actor.

Even so, if you're actually wondering how you're going to pay your bills, $4000 is a lot better than $0. What operating expenses are there for a voice actor? You either record the lines in your studio at home or they fly you out and put you up in a hotel, presumably on their dime, to record at their studio.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Keyrock

[Lexx]

57 minutes ago, majestic said:

Because, you know, that poor nurse at the food bank probably needs to put two in months worth of back breaking, physically and mentally exhausting work to earn that kind of money, while Ms. Taylor's work is sitting in a recording booth, wearing her pajamas and sipping on some coffee

Just wanted to point out that this is a meh-take, since just because some other job is paid badly, doesn't mean you have to suffer the same.

About the price for the voice - I'd argue it is in the similar category as regular actors. If your voice is a brand, like David Hayter / Solid Snake (best example I can think of right now), it should be recognized as such. But yeah, this is a pretty fluid area and not every voice / character is on the same level.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Lexx

[Hurlshort]

28 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

Even so, if you're actually wondering how you're going to pay your bills, $4000 is a lot better than $0. What operating expenses are there for a voice actor? You either record the lines in your studio at home or they fly you out and put you up in a hotel, presumably on their dime, to record at their studio.

If this was the first game, I'd probably agree. Take the job and build on it. But if you are taking the 3rd contract with a company that has profited off your work, and you're still not making enough to cover cost of living ($4k a month is not a liveable wage in LA/NY), then you probably need to rethink your career or demand better pay.

[majestic]

25 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

edit: How much does majestic think nurses make? They should be making six figures in most places.

You really need to get out of California at some point in your life. Five second google, from https://www.nurses.co.uk/

Quote

In 2018, The Royal College of Nursing calculated the average weekly pay for an NHS Nurse as being £642.

Again with the average, not the median, but what can you do.

Quote

Roughly, after all stoppages, Newly Registered Nurses get between £1,650 - £1,850 per month.

For the record, our nurse average monthly income before taxes is roughly 2000€, there are some better paid outliers, but in general they're not paid all that well, and certainly not anywhere close to six figures. 

15 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Just wanted to point out that this is a meh-take, since just because some other job is also paid badly, doesn't mean you have to suffer the same.

It was her who brought up nurses in particular, which was my point. She feels badly treated and the offer was insulting to her, that is fine. Putting herself in the same position as a nurse waiting in line at a food bank because runaway energy prices and inflation killed their income after turning down a relatively quick 4000$ contract? Nope.

24 minutes ago, Lexx said:

About the price for the voice - I'd argue it is in the similar category as regular actors. If your voice is a brand, like David Hayter / Solid Snake (best example I can think of right now), it should be recognized as such. But yeah, this is a pretty fluid area and not every voice / character is on the same level.

Average income for voice actors isn't all that great, by the way. US union rates for audiobook narrators, for instance, are in the ballpark of 250$ per completed hour (and maybe optional royalties per sale). That is probably a lot less than top-shelf non-union narrators make, of course, but it is a decent ballpark. For what it is worth, I think Jennifer Hale is still a member of SAG-AFTRA, so she charges union rates too.

4 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

If this was the first game, I'd probably agree. Take the job and build on it. But if you are taking the 3rd contract with a company that has profited off your work, and you're still not making enough to cover cost of living ($4k a month is not a liveable wage in LA/NY), then you probably need to rethink your career or demand better pay.

Month? How much dialogue does Bayonetta have in the new game, as much as the entirety of A Song of Ice and Fire has by now?

[majestic]

For the record, I do not really disagree with her take that she's most likely worth more than the offer she got (unless Bayonetta's lines in the game are doable in a single recording session), and that the offer may as well have been an intentional insult to make her quit or get good value out of her in an exploitative manner. It is all the rest of what she says that smells like hurt ivory tower ego much more than glorious champion of exploited labour.

Edited October 16, 2022 by majestic

[Hurlshort]

17 minutes ago, majestic said:

You really need to get out of California at some point in your life. Five second google, from https://www.nurses.co.uk/

Again with the average, not the median, but what can you do.

Yikes on the UK wages. https://nursinglicensemap.com/resources/nurse-salary/

I won't speak to the differenced between an RN and NP, as I'm not in the field, but it still doesn't seem to be a good comparison to a contract voice actor who has to work for every individual contract. How many contracts do you think the average voice actor gets in a calendar year?

[Azdeus]

For what it's worth, a normal Swedish nurse makes about 3500$/month before taxes here.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Azdeus
So frigging tired of the forum software

[Gfted1]

Goddamnfatcats!

[Bartimaeus]

Considering they got Jennifer Hale to replace her, who almost certainly commanded a much higher asking price given her experience and fame in the industry, it would suggest that they simply wanted someone different and the lowball offer was their way of trying to shift blame ("we tried to get her back, but she refused the offer"). I haven't played the game or heard her work, so I can't comment on the wisdom of this.

7 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

it still doesn't seem to be a good comparison to a contract voice actor who has to work for every individual contract. How many contracts do you think the average voice actor gets in a calendar year?

Yes: one should perhaps instead look up how much travel nurses are paid in the U.S. - it is substantially higher than regular nurses for short-term positions to cover staffing deficiencies, either because of simply not having the normal manpower for whatever reason or because of temporary situations that require more (e.g. surges in covid). Even that's still not exactly analogous to true contract work like you'd find in the tech industry, where e.g. external computer architects and engineers can get paid literal hundreds of dollars per hour for a job that may only be as short as 4 hours...or possibly much longer, depending on what it is. Point is, you don't know when the next job will come in for contract work, since by its nature it's irregular and unpredictable employment, so if your skills are valued enough for people to hire you for contract work, it necessarily has to be a lot more so the person can afford to stay afloat; if they can't, then it wouldn't be sustainable and it wouldn't be a thing.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Keyrock]

I don't know if it's feasible for a video game voice actor to make a good living without a second job, unless they're Nolan North, Troy Baker, Jennifer Hale, or Tara Strong. Whether that's right or wrong is up to you, but the reality of the business is the reality of the business. A company makes you an offer for a contract, you either accept or refuse the contract, and then if you refuse they find someone else. That's the reality in most industries. 

Going out and putting out a bleeding heart interview in IGN will get you some attention and mobilize the social media outrage squad... For about a week. Likely approximately 0.1% of said outrage squad will actually do anything to benefit you financially then they will all move on to the next outrage topic du jour and that will be that.

[Bartimaeus]

17 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

I don't know if it's feasible for a video game voice actor to make a good living without a second job

Most non-star VAs do have a second job: it is and has always been an underpaid and undervalued industry that preys on people's desire to be a part of something and be known for a role, possibly make it big. Regardless, it still doesn't take away the value of their work and impact whether they're being offered competitive rates for the roles they perform; replacing her with Jennifer Hale makes it pretty clear that it wasn't really about the money. Why Platinum Games seemingly wanted to replace her is a much more interesting question that we probably won't get an answer for.

Personally, the little I've seen of those games makes me wish I could forcibly silence all voice-acting because of how gosh-awful the general voice direction is, so hey, if they really want to save some money, they could hire me so that I could fire everybody and just use text boxes that one hundred percent would be totally fitting and completely not clash with the style of the game at all, .

Edited October 16, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

3 hours ago, Keyrock said:

I don't know if it's feasible for a video game voice actor to make a good living without a second job, unless they're Nolan North, Troy Baker, Jennifer Hale, or Tara Strong. Whether that's right or wrong is up to you, but the reality of the business is the reality of the business. A company makes you an offer for a contract, you either accept or refuse the contract, and then if you refuse they find someone else. That's the reality in most industries. 

Going out and putting out a bleeding heart interview in IGN will get you some attention and mobilize the social media outrage squad... For about a week. Likely approximately 0.1% of said outrage squad will actually do anything to benefit you financially then they will all move on to the next outrage topic du jour and that will be that.

Im outraged by what she said, she is just pandering to the SJW gaming  crowd and hoping to find sympathy and drag this business matter into  culture wars garbage 

But Im more outraged by her suggestion that " I am asking the fans to boycott this game and instead spend the money that you would have spent on this game donating to charity" ....I have never bought Bayonetta before but I am now going to buy 10 copies !!!  

And then she says "I decided to do it to stand up in solidarity with people all over the world who do not get paid properly for their talents"  .....please, pass the barf bag. If she was getting paid what she wants we wouldnt be hearing one word from her about " people who do not get paid properly for their talents " 

But this grandstanding from her will be an epic failure because Japanese companies arent part of Western  cancel culture so nothing is going to change 

Edited October 16, 2022 by BruceVC

[majestic]

6 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Most non-star VAs do have a second job: it is and has always been an underpaid and undervalued industry that preys on people's desire to be a part of something and be known for a role, possibly make it big.

Quoted for truth, and true for much of the entertainment industry too, and it includes video game developers and artists. Not that long ago there was an article about Blizzard paying their teams so little (note: for they area the company resides in, and compared to their profits, not in absolute numbers) that they basically had to share appartments because they could otherwise not afford them, and we're talking about an industry giant that sees insane revenue from existing IPs that barely any other company on the planet can claim to have, and they can get away with it because they are Blizzard, and people topple over each other to work for them.

It really is a disgrace, but exists in all sort of industries. When one looks at a certain major supermarket player here, for instance, one would find a corporation that could raise each of their employee's annual income by 10,000$ (which would amount to a 30 to 40% increase for cashiers) and cut sales prices by 10%, and would still be left with a nine figure profit per year after any and all investments they deemed necessary for expansion. They do not, of course, because they do not have to. There are only two major companies who split the non-discount market amongst themselves, and as a result our grocery prices are roughly 30 to 50% higher than in comparable areas in the European Union (particularily compared to Germany).

It is pointed out regularily by employee and labour interest groups, but nothing really changes, and any and all inquiries into their market position come back with 'no evidence for price gouging or rigging can be found', which is also true for gas stations, who all seem to miraculously have the same prices in our little corner of the world. Granted, one will not find evidence of price-rigging when prices are set automatically by machine learning algorithms based on real time telemetry. There is no need to rig a price, or talk to the competition. That just happens automatically.

That said, and in light of the posts by the usual clowns here, I want to reiterate that I do not have any issue with her demanding better pay for VAs, but simply the way she expresses herself: spur of the moment videos or not, that is just not any way one talks about her colleagues, particularily not when they are Jennifer Hale, a high profile industry veteran who is still part of SAG-AFTRA and in the past has taken the side of smaller VAs.

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

That said, and in light of the posts by the usual clowns here, I want to reiterate that I do not have any issue with her demanding better pay for VAs, but simply the way she expresses herself: spur of the moment videos or not, that is just not any way one talks about her colleagues, particularily not when they are Jennifer Hale, a high profile industry veteran who is still part of SAG-AFTRA and in the past has taken the side of smaller VAs.

No disagreement there, she did a lousy job representing herself. Why attack Jennifer Hale when she's got nothing to do with it? It obviously came from a place of emotion and distress from multiple angles (not being able to reprise what is presumably her most treasured role in a major game series that she was well-liked for is one thing already before you throw in needing money to survive), so I get it, but certainly not the most effective plea. I read earlier that before they "awarded" Hellena the role, they opened it up for others to audition, which is interesting. I don't know enough about the voice acting business to know whether that's typical, but it seems odd to already be auditioning replacements before you give the lowball offer. I can't imagine somebody like Charles Martinet (Mario, Luigi, Wario et al.) having to do that for each game that uses his voice, and she's already played the role in five different games as it is...but I don't know, maybe that's just part of Platinum Games' process: not every company will do things the same way, particularly across continents. Again, not likely something we'll get an answer about.

1 hour ago, majestic said:

It is pointed out regularily by employee and labour interest groups, but nothing really changes, and any and all inquiries into their market position come back with 'no evidence for price gouging or rigging can be found', which is also true for gas stations, who all seem to miraculously have the same prices in our little corner of the world. Granted, one will not find evidence of price-rigging when prices are set automatically by machine learning algorithms based on real time telemetry. There is no need to rig a price, or talk to the competition. That just happens automatically.

Ah, the beautiful future of 'AI': just another one of those boots forever stomping on the face of humanity in search of a quick buck.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Humanoid]

Them launching a GaaS game earlier this year, having it score 41 on Metacritic, and now unlaunching it for good is probably just as good a reason to boycott the company anyway.

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, majestic said:

 

 I want to reiterate that I do not have any issue with her demanding better pay for VAs, but simply the way she expresses herself: 

Nah, its too late. You have betrayed and let down the SJW crusade, you should never raised it in the first place. Just own it when  they come for you...oh and never apologize, thats immediate cancel culture and reparations  

[HoonDing]

Behave, please. This is not RPGCuckdex.

[Malcador]

On 10/16/2022 at 5:30 AM, majestic said:

That said, and in light of the posts by the usual clowns here, I want to reiterate that I do not have any issue with her demanding better pay for VAs, but simply the way she expresses herself: spur of the moment videos or not, that is just not any way one talks about her colleagues, particularily not when they are Jennifer Hale, a high profile industry veteran who is still part of SAG-AFTRA and in the past has taken the side of smaller VAs.

Her comments about Hale seem pretty tame.  Ultimately, nothing will change from this, but it's at least an entertaining bit of drama.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Malcador

[Gfted1]

Newly Updated Steam App Lets You Start Remote Downloads to Your PC - ExtremeTech

[Lexx]

I absolutely hate the new app. Before I always used the app to quickly check if there are any new comments on my mods on the workshop before heading to bed. Now the interface is so complicated and shows the shop and all other stuff... but I can't figure out how to get to my workshop files.

Really don't need remote downloads on my phone. I can wait the minutes till I'm home to start downloading something.

[Hawke64]

The new Steam mobile application keeps throwing errors at me, but I was able to customise the four first-showing sections, which still don't quite work. Not sure if one less click is preferable to the pages actually loading.