The All Things Political Topic - A politician needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn’t happen

[Gromnir]

After arrest in rape of 10-year-old girl, Fox News hosts shift focus

Some of Fox’s most high-profile hosts — Tucker Carlson, Jesse Watters, Laura Ingraham — suggested this week that the account of the 10-year-old rape victim was a “hoax” and “politically timed disinformation,” and claimed that the Biden administration was “lying” about the case after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade.

...

Later on Wednesday, Carlson and Ingraham shifted their attention to Fuentes and his uncertain citizenship status. The hosts featured chyrons on their shows saying that the 10-year-old girl “in Biden’s abortion story” was raped by an “illegal immigrant.” Assistant Franklin County prosecutor Dan Meyer said during Wednesday’s hearing that he believes Fuentes, 27, is undocumented, according to video of the arraignment.

...

the thing is, as we mentioned earlier in the thread, the hypothetical thirteen-year-old rape victim were specific addressed by ohio legislators previous to their new rape ban being made law. deflection and evasion is such a common tactic these days.

Ohio bill would ban abortion without rape exemption

Democrats were ready to ask questions, with most of them coming from Reps. Richard Brown (D-Canal Winchester), Dr. Beth Liston (D-Dublin) and Tavia Galonski (D-Akron). However, Majority Floor Leader Rep. Bill Seitz (R-Cincinnati) jumped in.

The intense back and forth between Brown and Schmidt revolved around the lack of exemptions for rape and incest.

“So under this bill, if a 13-year-old girl, let’s say, was raped by a serial rapist, broke into her house, or maybe more likely raped by a family member, which occurs frequently — unfortunately, this bill would require this 13-year-old to carry this felons fetus to term, regardless of any emotional or psychological damage or trauma that may be inflicted upon this 13-year-old girl to deliver this, felons a fetus. Is that right?” he asked.

Schmidt responded and said that rape is a difficult issue.

“It’s a shame that it happens, but there’s an opportunity for that woman, no matter how young or old she is,” she said.

The opportunity — which would be the only option — is to deliver that baby.

“She can choose to raise the child, she can choose to give that child to a loving family member or to give it to someone else — and that child can grow up and be something magnificent, a wonderful family person, cure cancer,” she said. “Just because you have emotional scars doesn’t give you the right, right to take the life.”

Brown followed up.

“You earlier said every life is important — the life of a 13-year-old girl in my hypothetical is important,” he added.

He then brings up the pregnant juvenile going to middle school, saying that kids are “mean, they’re evil and they’re going to say all kinds of bad things to their classmate about her condition.”

“I think this girl has rights every bit as much as the zygote that has rights under your bill,” he said. “This girl has rights, and I don’t believe we can lose sight of the rights of the person who was raped.”

Supporters of the bill, like Ohio Right to Life, say just because someone commits a crime, doesn’t mean we should have the right to “purposely” end a life.

“They can live a dignified life that shows them that they can overcome certain circumstances,” Elizabeth Whitmarsh, a spokesperson for the organization, said. “That might seem impossible in the moment, but they’re able to get through it.”

...

not shocking. not unforeseen. 

however, am gonna suggest that caitlin bernard should not have mentioned the incident and most definite were mistaken in speaking to a newspaper 'bout a ten-year-old rape victim from ohio. the doctor, in spite o' having good intentions and recognizing that she did not release specific patient info, knew or shoulda' known that the girl's identity would be discovered once bernard made her story public. innuendo has the capacity to make statements tortious or illegal even if the speaker does not explicit reveal the identity o' an individual. bernard quite possible has added to the victim's nightmare by making the child's rape a matter o' public interest. 

but again, the ohio gop were okie dokie with thirteen-year-old victims o' incestous rape being unable to obtain an abortion in ohio, so their indignation and deflection today is hardly convincing. "Just because you have emotional scars doesn’t give you the right, right to take the life." at least the gop authors o' the rape ban were being honest 'bout the absolutist position. 

[Lexx]

Lately I keep thinking about the future and how the next 20 or so years might look like. Truth told, what has me worried the most is the developments in america. Everything over there becomes more fascist for years already, and americans don't even realize it, because they are so indoctrinated. It's like this frog in boiling water thing. Police becomes more military every day, right wingers successfully plant their judges and stuff everywhere, important human rights laws get overturned and disbanded, the gun violence, the tv channels that spew lies and propaganda without a break and it just feels like nothing can be done against any of this. It's too late. Really not looking forward to sit next to a right wing fascist bully with the strongest military in the world.

[Gfted1]

Nah, were kittens. You should be worried about Dead Hand - Wikipedia.

[Zoraptor]

5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

tarrant is pulled outta car, flops onto the ground and then is struck with rifle butt. 18 second mark. how much time elapsed previous to start o' video is unknown but were time enough for cops to get out of their car and reach tarrant. tarrant had plenty o' time to set off vest before being struck if that were the plan and if he were in condition to do so. just as you assume he were dazed from rifle strike, tarrant's behaviour previous to being struck suggests he were dazed from the car crash.
 

So, still haven't read the article with the 1st hand report from the arresting cops then? My surprise is a 1x1 transparent gif somewhere on this page.

It's exactly the kind of completely irrelevant guff you always spout anyway- so what if he was dazed from the car crash, initiated by the police? If the Uvalde cops had biffed in a stun grenade would you be saying 'oh but the gunman was stunned'? Nah, you'd be waxing lyrical about their competence and bravery.

[Gromnir]

we read the article. didn't prevent us from watching the video. our observations is hardly irrelevant 'cause as you keep ignoring, those observations illustrate just how different were the situations you inexplicable are trying to compare. non analogous and yet you somehow keep using as some kinda proof o'... what exact?

in the video o' tarrant, the cops could see the suspect who were plain visible to the cops on the scene as windshields is purposeful transparent, unlike the walls o' a uvalde classroom. was a lengthy delay 'tween ramming o' car and the suspect being removed from the vehicle and at no time did tarrant fire on the cops. the uvalde shooter had fired 'pon police and had not just been on the receiving end o' a high speed auto collision. oh, and even the nz cops were surprised tarrant were alone in the car. we know that bit o' info 'cause we read the article. is unlike uvalde where the shooter had a room full o' kids with him. with one hand a cop pulls tarrant outta the crashed car? serious?  try that with an uncooperative male adult. ever seen videos where it takes a bunch o' cops to wrestle even a smallish subject to the ground and restrain him? those ain't exceptional. the nz cop got tarrant outta the car and to the ground using only one hand before the suspect were struck with the rifle.  have personal been one o' those guys trying to restrain somebody who is uncooperative. is not easy to wrestle a large primate even if you got a significant size advantage. sure the cops hit the bad guy with a rifle butt and nobody is gonna second guess, but tarrant clear weren't putting up the kinda resistance any reasonable person would expect if he were well and trying to do harm to the cops. "Carmody called for Manning to enter the vehicle from behind and handcuff the driver with his hands up. Manning went around and opened the hatchback and saw what appeared to be four improvised incendiary devices - petrol cans with objects taped to them." note the wapo included video begins with hatch on the subaru up and manning nowhere near the back o' the car. so how much time had elapsed after impact wherein the terrorist were sitting in the driver seat, not firing at the cops? so much different.

stun grenades? did the first guys on the scene at uvalde have stun grenades? have said 'bout a dozen times the delay by law enforcement taking action has not been explained satisfactory. am seeing no excuse offered for the delay. stun grenades. ballistic shields. whatever. how could it take so long to come up with a workable plan, but once the shooter were behind a door in a classroom with kid hostages, expecting individual line cops to ignore leadership and rush through the door is not reasonable and hardly deserves a blanket condemnation o' cowardice. even if the first guys on the scene had stun grenades, the effectiveness o' such devices is hardly 100% particular if somebody is expecting, has ear protection and/or has sheltered or is protected from blast, as with tables or furniture acting as obstacles. do you know what the situation were in the classroom with the uvalde shooter? where were he positioned relative to the door? did he line up hostages between himself and the doorway so he would have a clear line o' sight to fire at anybody coming through the door while the kids became human shields for his defense? seem like the kinda stuff you would want to know, yes? 

and strawman much? we never claimed uvalde cops were brave, 'cause we don't know the situation o' individual cops and what orders they were following and what steps were being taken. am unable to label individual line cops as cowards for not rushing into oncoming weapon fire, but is not an either/or proposition. just 'cause am uncertain o' cowardice it most certain does not require our admiration and praise for bravery, but logic continues to be a problem for zor.

so not same situations as with tarrant and am so not applauding uvalde police bravery. the delay to come up with a viable plan at the uvalde school, particular as the shooter were murdering kids in the classroom, is in our mind unacceptable. if is an explanation for such a lengthy delay we would consider such, but so far nobody in authority has explained the delay. unforgivable. nevertheless, the fact a few months previous some uncertain amount o' uvalde cops got unspecific active shooter training, or that they were armed with military gear is hardly convincing us the individual cops on site were cowards.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 14, 2022 by Gromnir

[Zoraptor]

Right. You're moving onto the purposeful misinterpretation part then. I never said the cops at Uvalde were cowards, though it's certainly a valid interpretation of their actions. Indeed, I said it looked mostly like situational malaise/ paralysis. Always amusing to have strawman accusations as an actual strawman though.

The police description makes it clear Tarrant wasn't significantly stunned by the initial impact, he just had a gun trained on him within seconds. Him not being stunned was why the cop whacked him with the gun butt. It doesn't matter either way, because whether he was stunned or not it was because of an act the cops took instead of metaphorically sipping lattes like they did in Uvalde*. Similar, doesn't matter if he wasn't wearing a suicide vest and was alone if the cops believed neither were true- and he did have two ieds.

*The shooter left the classroom at one point to try and break into another, shooting several people there, and they weren't even set up to take him out then. And that was ~15 minutes in. That renders all the excuses about him being barricaded etc moot. He was actively shooting into a room they knew had students in, was outside of any barricades/ traps in a corridor and... crickets. There comes a point where it doesn't really matter if they weren't set up because they were changing their trousers after a collective code brown or just were that incompetent.

Yeah, it's not directly equivalent. You can compare the competency, effectiveness and apparent bravery of non directly equivalent incidents though.

 

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

stuff

 

*sigh*

where did we accuse you specific o' claiming uvalde cop cowardice? we will wait. we keep repeating the generalized observations 'bout the delay and how we believes such fits into the uvalde narrative. obsidian board posters has claimed uvalde cops were cowards due to their inaction and a couple times in responding to you we has reiterated, generally, we can't see cowardice. you being intentional obtuse 'cause this time we didn't add "charge in" to make obvious we were speaking to more than just you? converse, zor goes strawman with "Nah, you'd be waxing lyrical about their competence and bravery." you are net helping self with the logic fails, but false dichotomy and strawman yourself into knots if you want. 

as to police comments from the article, we noted already the police description does not require us to ignore the video. before wapo video even starts at least one o' the nz cops had time to go to the rear o' the car and open the hatch. at the start o' the wapo video, nobody were near the rear o' the car. so how much time elapses during which cops is not fired 'pon by tarrant and he is eventual wrestled outta the car and thrown to the ground before getting a rifle butt? dunno, but is so not like uvalde. stun grenades which may or may not have been available? *chuckle* a classroom situation with hostages and unknown positions o' shooter and obstacles. a shooter clear not discombobulated by a car crash. etc. you see what is clear different as analogous. 

from ap article

11:33 a.m. — Ramos enters the school through the unlocked door on the school’s west side and begins shooting into adjoining classrooms 111 and 112 from the hallway, school surveillance footage shows. Ramos then enters, exits and re-enters classrooms 111 and 112. He fires more than 100 rounds over about 4 minutes, McCraw said on May 27.

11:35 a.m. — Three city police officers, who have two rifles, enter the school through the same door Ramos entered, according to school surveillance footage.

11:36 a.m. — Arredondo, another school district officer and two more city police officers enter through the building’s south door, according to school surveillance footage. Then three more city police officers and another officer from the school district enter through the west door.

11:37 a.m. — Ramos fires 11 rounds as officers approach the classroom doors, according to school surveillance footage. McCraw said two officers received “grazing wounds” from Ramos.

11:38 a.m. — An unknown officer says, “He’s contained in this office,” said state police, who cited body camera footage in the timeline they released June 21. McCraw testified on June 21 that the school floor plan shows no office in the classroom.

...

(edit) 12:21 p.m. — Ramos fires four rounds, according to school surveillance footage. According to body camera footage, Arredondo says: “Can you go get a breaching tool? Like for a trailer house?” McCraw said during his June 21 testimony, “So if this is a barricaded subject, why is he still firing?” McCraw said on May 27 that at this time, officers moved down the hall.

12:23 p.m. — According to body camera footage, Arredondo says: “We’ve lost two kids. These walls are thin. If he starts shooting we’re going to lose more kids. I hate to say we have to put those to the side right now.”

...

12:30 p.m. — According to body camera footage, Arredondo says: “OK. We’ve cleared out everything except for that room. We still have people down there just past the flag to the right. But, uh, we’re ready to breach but that door is locked.”

...

12:50 p.m. — Officers breach the classroom and fatally shoot Ramos, according to surveillance footage. McCraw said on May 27 that they breached the door using keys they got from the janitor because the door was locked. He said June 21 that it turned out that the classroom door could not be locked from the inside by design and there was no indication officers tried to open it during the standoff. He also said a teacher had reported before the shooting that the lock was broken.

State police say an hour and 14 minutes went by from the time police entered the school to when Ramos was killed.

...

an hour and 14 minutes is at the 11:35/11:36 mark (am assuming a round up or down explains one minute discrepancy but is hardly important) which is following the time the shooter were entering and exiting classrooms. by 11:37 ramos never leaves and has already shot and injured multiple cops.

no exits from classroom is noted afterwards. would be disappointing if such happened, but again we would blame on leadership and we have already heaped considerable scorn 'pon leadership and their delay in dealing with the uvalde shooter. pointing out the failure o' the cops to stop the shooter sooner is pointless as we already agreed to the situation were handled poorly. for chrissakes, we has noted how the cops didn't know for some considerable period o' time the door to the classroom were unlocked while they searched for a key. from the timeline it looks as if they were spending all their time looking for keys and breaching tools in spite o' an unlocked door. serious. unless is some kinda hidden info which would exonerate, the folks in charge at uvalde screwed the p00ch and you making such a point is one o' those irrelevancies you complained 'bout 'cause we already agreed. duh.

were uvalde fail due to poor training which some o' them only got once a couple months previous. were uvalde due to mishandling by leadership? dunno. you is the guy making the assumptions. Gromnir, on the other hand, recognizes how different were the tarrant situation from uvalde while considering the many unknowns regarding training, instructions given to the cops at the school and the perversity o' the universe which may have the entire delay and numerous avoidable deaths explained by the absence o' anybody checking to see if the classroom door were unlocked. they got keys from a janitor. surely the janitor knew the doors couldn't lock? is hard to believe... or not given human nature.

HA! Good Fun!

ps apologies as the 12:21 were relevant in our estimation and somehow we failed to copy and paste it along with 12:23

Edited July 15, 2022 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

https://www.wsj.com/video/uvalde-surveillance-video-shows-police-waiting-in-hallway-during-shooting/07400042-D537-47A6-849C-310594CCD101.html

feel free to match timeline with video. 

11:37 a.m. — Ramos fires 11 rounds as officers approach the classroom doors, according to school surveillance footage. McCraw said two officers received “grazing wounds” from Ramos.

HA! Good Fun!

[Chairchucker]

On 7/10/2022 at 3:31 AM, Gromnir said:

best thing for liberals would be a trump 2024. democrats is terrible at voting, but they voted for not-trump in 2020. would millennials, who bare managed 50% voting in 2020 in spite o' their universal outrage the previous four years, vote not-desantis not-nikki haley? wouldn't count on it. insofar as a future President is concerned, the best thing for dems is a trump 2024 run... second best is gop choosing not-trump and then trump destroying the base in retaliation for the disloyalty done unto him. 

trump is arguable the only good thing going for the dems in 2024.

HA! Good Fun!

ps trumpism is already part o' the the new gop faith and fury based politics. imagine trump gets abducted by aliens tomorrow or pulls an ambrose bierce and disappears in mexico, never to be seen again. such won't change the problems for fractured democrats needing deal with an opposition party unified by outrage and grievance... unless trump manages to set the gop on fire before he disappears. 

Just gonna come back to this one. Personally I think, long term, the best thing for most people would be Trump in prison. I think it would be best if he saw some serious consequences, because the more time goes by without consequences for his actions, the more it seems like a good idea for someone to try it again.

[Gromnir]

49 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Just gonna come back to this one. Personally I think, long term, the best thing for most people would be Trump in prison. I think it would be best if he saw some serious consequences, because the more time goes by without consequences for his actions, the more it seems like a good idea for someone to try it again.

 

ff to 5:49... or don't. the secret service angle is worth listening to, but am admitting we will, as usual, wait 'til we get a bit more info 'cause while it is possible the text loss due to phone recycling were coincidental, am thinking it would be foolish to not look into the matter further.

regardless, why we post is 'cause you got a panel o' dems and liberals voicing their opinion 'bout a trump Presidential run and the impact o' such an announcement. don't need agree with them but is interesting to see what liberals is saying 'bout the prospects o' a trump Presidential run, yes?

btw, prison and/or a felony conviction does not preclude a Presidential run. there is an age, citizenship and residency requirement in the Constitution, but we have had candidates run for President while imprisoned although they have not been major party candidates. am suspecting prison has no impact on trump popularity with his base and the remainder o' conservatives who voted trump in 2020 could not be counted on to sudden find the will to resist. 

repost link:

ARIZONA REP. WHO DETAILED TRUMP‘S ILLEGAL PLOT TO STEAL THE ELECTION SAYS HE’D VOTE FOR TRUMP IN 2024

is mindboggling stuff but only in the abstract. these kinda stories disappoint and maybe even horrify, but does it surprise you bowers announced he would vote for trump 2024? shouldn't.

democrats suck at voting, but fear o' another four years o' trump got them off their arses in 2020. 

in any event, prison is not precluding a trump 2024 Presidential run. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 15, 2022 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

10 hours ago, Lexx said:

Lately I keep thinking about the future and how the next 20 or so years might look like. Truth told, what has me worried the most is the developments in america. Everything over there becomes more fascist for years already, and americans don't even realize it, because they are so indoctrinated. It's like this frog in boiling water thing. Police becomes more military every day, right wingers successfully plant their judges and stuff everywhere, important human rights laws get overturned and disbanded, the gun violence, the tv channels that spew lies and propaganda without a break and it just feels like nothing can be done against any of this. It's too late. Really not looking forward to sit next to a right wing fascist bully with the strongest military in the world.

Oh no, the fascist word ....bad Lexx, bad Lexx using a word in the wrong context 

A country that is Constitutional Democracy is not a fascist state. So the majority of Americans dont have to realize something that isnt true

But its always good to ensure that a Democracy doesnt slide into  a non-Democratic state and become an autocratic or true fascist state. Thats why you have a free media, independent courts and a vibrant civil society in the US and you have the different arms of government that hold each other accountable

I cant think of any example in the world where a working, functional Democracy has  become an autocratic or fascist state? But we must always be on our guard so its good to be concerned and wary

And finally the US is the most powerful military in the world but can you imagine how much more worse the world would be if the US suddenly became isolationist and we were left with Russia and China as the worlds next most powerful militaries. Thats much more scary than the US 

 

[Lexx]

News from Naziland: https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkgbny/republicans-investigate-neo-nazis-military

Edited July 15, 2022 by Lexx

[Lexx]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

A country that is Constitutional Democracy is not a fascist state. So the majority of Americans dont have to realize something that isnt true

American politicians are actively working on dismantling even the crappy form of democracy they currently have. It baffles me how americans don't realize where they are heading, and if you try to speak about it, they don't take it serious and / or laugh about it. Kinda how it went in the 1930s in germany, I guess.

American children are pledging allegiance to a stupid flag and talk **** about "one nation under god" every day at school - everyone who doesn't participate gets bullied into it. How you can not see that this is step 1 in fascism and indoctrination is beyond me.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Lexx said:

American politicians are actively working on dismantling even the crappy form of democracy they currently have. It baffles me how americans don't realize where they are heading, and if you try to speak about it, they don't take it serious and / or laugh about it. Kinda how it went in the 1930s in germany, I guess.

Just for the record I think another 4 years of Trump will be a bad idea for  US and global Democracy generally. But at least it will only be for another 4 years...how much damage can he really do?

I do share your concern about the undermining of Democracy anywhere in the world 

But I cant stress the point enough how much worse the world would be without the US because we would all  be beholden and influenced  to the likes of Russia and China and their ideological views. You must  realize the US provides the main counter to these true autocrat and undemocratic states 

[Lexx]

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

how much damage can he really do?

Are you serious? The 4 years he had caused enough damage for everyone around me to lose the last bit of trust in american politics.

That said, I'm also pissed that the EU didn't finally step up and get their crap together. It's like they were following US lead for so long that they can't do anything on their own. It's time to fix that.

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Are you serious? The 4 years he had caused enough damage for everyone around me to lose the last bit of trust in american politics.

That said, I'm also pissed that the EU didn't finally step up and get their crap together. It's like they were following US lead for so long that they can't do anything on their own. It's time to fix that.

Well I agree the EU needs to be do more and its starts having a more resourced military. Which is why Im glad Scholtz has increased the military spending for Germany 

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Are you serious? The 4 years he had caused enough damage for everyone around me to lose the last bit of trust in american politics.

 

Im interested in what you mean, Trump won in 2016 in a free and fair election. What did people you know lose trust in?

Because we cant get upset with the outcome of any Democrat election in the world if thats what the majority of people who register to vote and decide to vote choose?

I am genuinely interested in what you mean, I can guess but I dont want to guess?

[Gromnir]

37 minutes ago, Lexx said:

 

American children are pledging allegiance to a stupid flag and talk **** about "one nation under god" every day at school - everyone who doesn't participate gets bullied into it. How you can not see that this is step 1 in fascism and indoctrination is beyond me.

that isn't how am recalling it. we never said the pledge in high school and nobody f'ing cared. got a few funny looks day 1 but by end o' the first week it were a non issue. on advice from our grandfather, we would stand with the rest o' the class but we did not recite pledge. *shrug*

in our classes there were frequent some jehovah witness or other religious objector who didn't do pledge so were hardly shocking Gromnir didn't join. btw, has been illegal to compel pledge reciting since 1943.

we had US government issues when we were young (still do) but much o' those disappeared when we went to europe to teach and then realized US were doing it far better than we thought. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 15, 2022 by Gromnir

[Lexx]

11 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Im interested in what you mean, Trump won in 2016 in a free and fair election. What did people you know lose trust in?

Because we cant get upset with the outcome of any Democrat election in the world if thats what the majority of people who register to vote and decide to vote choose?

I am genuinely interested in what you mean, I can guess but I dont want to guess?

I'm not sure if you are  serious or if you really didn't see what happened? Here, just some stuff off the top of my head + 30 seconds of google:

- He is openly racist

- Crapton of nepotism

- How he handled Covid-19

- Immigration politics

- Lied constantly and got away with everything

- Insurrection, and got away with it (so far, we'll see what happens next)

- Withdrawal from the Paris Climate Agreement

- Wanted to get out of NATO

- Is obviously a russian puppet

- Enlisting Foreign Officials to Help His Candidacy (remember Ukraine)

- Dismantled the Iran atom deal

- Generally anti-science

- Is part of some weird religious cult (ofc he is not religious, but he and his people don't mind using whatever they can to get power and money).

Does all of this affect the rest of the world? No, but yes. America has become untrustworthy. Their word means nothing. They tell you one thing now and in 4 years, **** it. Now give those people the most powerful military in the world. No thanks.

 

5 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

that isn't how am recalling it. we never said the pledge in high school and nobody f'ing cared.

What year was your high school time?

 

/edit: By the way, I'm not saying that Biden / Democrats are better. Most of them are the same coin, just different side, which makes all of this even worse.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Lexx said:

I'm not sure if you are  serious or if you really didn't see what happened? Here, just some stuff off the top of my head + 30 seconds of google:

- He is openly racist

- Crapton of nepotism

- How he handled Covid-19

- Immigration politics

- Lied constantly and got away with everything

- Insurrection, and got away with it (so far, we'll see what happens next)

- Withdrawal from the Paris Climate Agreement

- Wanted to get out of NATO

- Is obviously a russian puppet

- Enlisting Foreign Officials to Help His Candidacy (remember Ukraine)

- Dismantled the Iran atom deal

- Generally anti-science

- Is part of some weird religious cult (ofc he is not religious, but he and his people don't mind using whatever they can to get power and money).

Does all of this affect the rest of the world? No, but yes. America has become untrustworthy. Their word means nothing. They tell you one thing now and in 4 years, **** it. Now give those people the most powerful military in the world. No thanks.

 

What year was your high school time?

 

/edit: By the way, I'm not saying that Biden / Democrats are better. Most of them are the same coin, just different side, which makes all of this even worse.

Yes I was being serious, when I ask questions about anyones opinion its because I dont want to assume. So unless Im clearly joking I am always sincere about the questions I ask

You raise some good points and I share some of your concerns. I will respond later because I have some work pressures now

But I appreciate you going into details because now I understand what you mean 

[Lexx]

That said, america is big, and obviously it's not the same everywhere. I'm blindly guessing that blue states fare much better- however, what's the point if red states can just bully everyone into their submission? You are just as strong as your weakest link, and americans weakest link are nazis who get approx 50% of all the votes right now. That's not a small number at all and should not be taken lightly. Blink and you can't do anything against it anymore.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Lexx

[Gromnir]

53 minutes ago, Lexx said:

 

 

What year was your high school time?

 

height of cold war reagan years, so...

edit: anecdote

we only had one teacher ever demand an explanation as to why we didn't do pledge. told her we were raised pine ridge by our grandfather who were still kinda angry 'bout both wounded knee incidents. we explained our grandfather had discouraged us from doing the pledge but that he would be ok with us taking an oath to defend the Constitution if we joined the military or became a US senator... he requested other situations be open for future discussion and debate. 

teacher were a bit nonplussed by our response but she never again brought up the subject.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 15, 2022 by Gromnir

[Chairchucker]

3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

in any event, prison is not precluding a trump 2024 Presidential run. 

HA! Good Fun!

I don't know the rules around that. Got the impression it were a bit of a barrier. In any case, that's not really what I was talking about.

 

3 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

 I think it would be best if he saw some serious consequences, because the more time goes by without consequences for his actions, the more it seems like a good idea for someone to try it again.

I was talking about how consequences might act as an incentive against future shenanigans.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Lexx said:

I'm not sure if you are  serious or if you really didn't see what happened? Here, just some stuff off the top of my head + 30 seconds of google:

- He is openly racist

- Crapton of nepotism

- How he handled Covid-19

- Immigration politics

- Lied constantly and got away with everything

- Insurrection, and got away with it (so far, we'll see what happens next)

- Withdrawal from the Paris Climate Agreement

- Wanted to get out of NATO

- Is obviously a russian puppet

- Enlisting Foreign Officials to Help His Candidacy (remember Ukraine)

- Dismantled the Iran atom deal

- Generally anti-science

- Is part of some weird religious cult (ofc he is not religious, but he and his people don't mind using whatever they can to get power and money).

Does all of this affect the rest of the world? No, but yes. America has become untrustworthy. Their word means nothing. They tell you one thing now and in 4 years, **** it. Now give those people the most powerful military in the world. No thanks.

 

What year was your high school time?

 

/edit: By the way, I'm not saying that Biden / Democrats are better. Most of them are the same coin, just different side, which makes all of this even worse.

So I am just  going  to summarize the response to the  points you mentioned, we can go into more detail if you interested. I have been  following the US election ideological developments since about 2003 and you have  to realize its much more nuanced and complicated than what most people realize because we naturally compare it to our own Democracies. For example gun control is not as simple as we all think because its Constitutional and cultural to many Americans and thats never going to change

And then its important to not generalize about either party in the US, both parties have extreme left and right elements and both parties have moderates and centralist views. I support  both parties in different ways but at the moment Im more GOP leaning but during Obamas time I was Democrat. But Im not a Trump supporter 

- He is openly racist : This is often raised but its subjective, he got 30% of the Hispanic vote in 2016 and he always has black people who support him. You will always find " Blacks for Trump " at all his rallies. Its awkward when white people like us assume Trump is racist yet not all black people will agree on that

- Crapton of nepotism : He had very clever advisors in his cabinet in 2016 especially around economic policies. The unemployment rate amongst Hispanic and black Americans was the lowest its ever been. So nepotism can be seen as qualified people in certain government departments like the Wilbur Ross and others 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_economic_advisors_to_Donald_Trump

- How he handled Covid-19: Agreed, it was mishandled but the high deaths in the US was more due to citizens and governors who rejected basic virus best practice like vaccines. Trump himself took  vaccines but much of his base and supporters  refused. So I think  this was more about the global push back to proven science around vaccines 

- Immigration politics : The immigration on the border is worse under the Democrats and getting worse. Illegal immigration is a crisis in many countries including SA

- Lied constantly and got away with everything : His supporters will tell you either he didnt lie or its " just how Trump is " or " the media is taking him seriously when he was just trolling" and he use to do this on purpose to get a liberal media response and create a distraction to real issues...and people fell for it time and time again. But he was cavalier with facts and repeated misinformation but his supporters didnt seem to care 

- Insurrection, and got away with it (so far, we'll see what happens next) : Trump genuinely believes the election was stolen. Its different from knowing he lost and lying about it like Bannon and Giuliani  did. But yes we need to see if he will he prosecuted for willful ignorance 

- Withdrawal from the Paris Climate Agreement: Bad decision and a mistake 

- Wanted to get out of NATO : Terrible decision and demonstrated Trumps lack of interest and understanding in history and events outside of the US  

- Is obviously a russian puppet : I wouldnt call him a Putin puppet but he admires autocratic and strongmen governments because they dont allow things like  a free media. Thankfully Trump cant destroy the free media in the US 

- Enlisting Foreign Officials to Help His Candidacy (remember Ukraine): Yes, Trump was transactional around everything. He never understood the importance of decorum and presidential protocol. So in his mind it was acceptable to try to " bribe " Zelensky to help him undermine Biden. Again this was an example of Trump not understanding geopolitics and what any president can or cant do

- Dismantled the Iran atom deal: A complex one, the Obama prudent nuclear deal was not practiced in good faith by the hardliners in Iran because they tested  ballistic missiles and continue to destabilize the ME. The nuclear deal was supposed to be about overall stability in the ME between Shia and Sunnis and the Iranian hardliners didntn follow this

- Generally anti-science: Agreed, Trump has very little understanding and belief in science 

- Is part of some weird religious cult (ofc he is not religious, but he and his people don't mind using whatever they can to get power and money) : Agreed, the Trumperism cult is a concern to me because most of them no longer vote on what they believe but rather what Trump tells them to do. This undermines the principle of what citizens in any Democracy are suppose to do 

Edited July 15, 2022 by BruceVC

[Chairchucker]

Might just piggyback onto Lexx's point by reposting a previous partial list of Trump's actions leading up to being voted out:

 

Calling Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals.

Insulting a prisoner of war for having been captured

Implying a journalist attempting to do her job by asking probing questions was PMSing

Responding to an act of violence carried out by his supporters in his name not by condemning their actions, but by saying that the people following him are very passionate and love this country.

Mocking a reporter about his congenital joint condition

Saying a judge was unable to effectively do his job because of his Mexican heritage.

Bragging that his celebrity status enables him to sexually assault women.

Dismissing bragging about being able to sexually assault women as ‘locker room banter’.

Being the subject of at least 25 separate accusations of sexual misconduct.

Implying that some of his accusers were not attractive enough for him to sexually assault.

Perpetuating the lie that vaccines cause autism.

Asking a black reporter if they can set a meeting up with the Congressional Black Caucus, and if they were friends of hers.

Labelling any unflattering news story as ‘fake news’ and calling those media outlets ‘enemy of the American People’.

Barring those outlets from press conferences.

Implying that in a clash between actual Nazis and Klan members yelling slogans such as ‘Jews will not replace us’ and counter protesters, in which a white supremacist killed one person and injured 19 others with their vehicle, both sides are approximately morally equal, and later saying there were very fine people on both sides.

Calling athletes who peacefully protested against police brutality by kneeling during the national anthem 'sons of bitches' and suggesting they should be fired.

Implying that media outlets who publish what he characterises as ‘fake news’ might lose their media license.

Joking that his vice president wants to kill all gay people.

Sharing anti Muslim videos posted by a member of a hate group.

Suggesting that the USA should accept more refugees from places like Norway or Asia, rather than African nations.

Inspiring a white supremacist website to write that he is more or less on the same page as them with regards to race and immigration.

Suggesting it was treasonous not to applaud his speeches.

Using a school shooting as an opportunity to criticise FBI investigations into himself.

Saying that it was great that China’s president was now President for life, and suggesting that the USA should give that a shot someday.

Siding with the leader of a foreign nation over the leaders of his own intelligence agencies.

Mocking the testimony of a victim of sexual assault.

Praising a congressman for assaulting a reporter.

Suggesting that several congresswomen of colour who are American citizens, three of whom were born in the USA, should go back to their own country.

Repeatedly downplaying the dangers of a global pandemic.

Suggesting the use of untested drugs against the advice of medical professionals.

Withholding pandemic aid from states with governors that aren’t ‘grateful enough’.

Calling on protestors to violate lockdowns.

Publicly speculating about the possible effectiveness of eating or injecting disinfectant to fight a virus.

Suggesting he has been treated worse than presidents who were assassinated.

Calling a congresswoman ‘Shamu’ and suggesting that she visited every buffet restaurant in the state.

Suggesting that a 75 year old peace activist, hospitalised after being shoved by police officers, ‘could be an ANTIFA provocateur’.

Sharing a video of one of his supporters yelling ‘white power’.

Saying he might not accept the results of an election if he loses.

Sending well wishes to someone who was arrested on charges of aiding a sex offender.

Calling someone pathetic for accurately saying that a pandemic is widespread.

Suggesting that a police officer mistakenly using deadly force is similar to a golfer missing a putt.

Encouraging people to vote twice.

Refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he lost an election.

Ridiculing a political opponent for heeding the advice of scientists.

Saying that people who tried to run a campaign bus of his political rival off the road ‘did nothing wrong’.

Falsely declaring himself the winner of an election.

Falsely claiming that election fraud has been committed.

Urging a crowd at a rally to march to the capitol.

Telling the crowd, after they commit domestic terrorism by entering the capitol building, erecting a gallows with the apparent intent to hang his Vice President, entering senate chambers and looting several items, ‘We love you. You’re very special’.

Continuing, despite his words already having inspired a right wing terrorist attack on the capitol building, to utter the same rhetoric to cause that attack.

Trying to have his Vice President overturn the election.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Chairchucker