Ukraine Conflict - Alle Dinge unterliegen Interpretation je nachdem, was Interpretation zu einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt herrscht, ist eine Funktion der Macht und nicht die Wahrheit

[xzar_monty]

Yeah, that is true. For quite some time, they were able to fly in stuff at night, by helicopter, over the water, but this route was lost some time ago. It is an astonishing battle.

[BruceVC]

26 minutes ago, Lexx said:

I'm actually surprised that the remnants in the steel factory still have (or had) food and water left after so much time. The way I understood it, there must be at least ~1k people. Try getting rations for so many people if you are surrounded.

Yes, from all media coverage the availability of food and supplies is almost gone and as you said they surrounded 

But as @xzar_montymentioned would you want to surrender to the likes of the Russian military in Ukraine considering how some  civilians and Ukrainian military have been treated ?

[bugarup]

10 hours ago, 213374U said:

Not really. You gave four examples of what you think the Russian position is. Or what the media says the Russian position is. Or... what the Soviet Union's position was. Anything that doesn't fit with that is either ignored -a few articles deviating from the mainstream narrative in this thread- or flat out rejected because by definition nothing Russians say is true, while any "report" from a Twitter account with a Ukrainian flag in the handle is worth reposting.

You've made a choice to believe a certain version of facts. That's your prerogative, but painting anyone disagreeing with that version as insane strikes me as... dogmatic, to put it mildly.

I mean, I'm sure y'all are familiar with the old adage, "in war, truth is the first casualty". We shouldn't believe that "OSINT" sources have made that saying obsolete, heh.

Out of Xzar's list, only "2) Russia also clears essentially all of its western front in order to attack Ukraine, because it knows perfectly well that NATO has no intention to attack it, ever." may be interpreted as a speculation. Everything else can be fact-checked. Unless, of course, we speculate that Russia is so mired in lies that absolutely nothing their officials and propaganda mouthpieces say can be taken at face value....what would still prove Xzar's point, but in a roundabout way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, bugarup said:

Out of Xzar's list, only "2) Russia also clears essentially all of its western front in order to attack Ukraine, because it knows perfectly well that NATO has no intention to attack it, ever." may be interpreted as a speculation. Everything else can be fact-checked. Unless, of course, we speculate that Russia is so mired in lies that absolutely nothing their officials and propaganda mouthpieces say can be taken at face value....what would still prove Xzar's point, but in a roundabout way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree, if you want to spend maybe 10 minutes doing your own research or following any international media  house most of the stories about Putins War are true

@213374U I would recommend you stop streaming RT as your news source around Putins War, its well known to biased and pushes Putins propaganda. The worst lies I have heard from Russia is directly from the Russian ambassador in SA when he use to do  interviews in the beginning ( they have stopped interestingly enough )

He stated on a talk show publicly that " civilians and civilian building are not being  targeted and its the Ukrainian Neo-Nazis and freed Ukrainian prisoners that are guilty of executing people and bombing hospitals " 

Edited April 21, 2022 by BruceVC

[xzar_monty]

13 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

The worst lies I have heard from Russia is directly from the Russian ambassador in SA when he use to interviews in the beginning ( they have stopped interestingly enough )

Have you seen this? One comment I have seen was, "Monty Python is strong in this one." Unfortunately, it's not funny.

 

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

I'm actually surprised that the remnants in the steel factory still have (or had) food and water left after so much time. The way I understood it, there must be at least ~1k people. Try getting rations for so many people if you are surrounded.

It's not all that surprising.

Syria's a lot drier and sieges there lasted literally years, yet getting 'starved out' seldom (never?) happened. You can last an awfully long time on a can of beans a day, if you have to. For water there's a river right next door to azovstal too (OK, you wouldn't want to drink from it and it would be brackish that close to the sea, but still). OTOH going by what CossackGundi (the Brit Ukrainian Marine who surrendered) was saying from azovmash/ Ilyich they'd been out of food and drinking from puddles for a while there.

Technically you could supply ~1000 soldiers with a single Mi-8/17 helicopter load, assuming you could distribute it- Syria did that for months with the Deir Ez Zor Airfield pocket. But that's a lot easier against ISIS which has no airforce or much AA than against Russia.

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Yeah, that is true. For quite some time, they were able to fly in stuff at night, by helicopter, over the water, but this route was lost some time ago. It is an astonishing battle.

The route is technically still there, since azovstal has a coastline. The helicopter losses were just completely unsustainable. And when they lost the helicopter on the way in their defenders didn't get the supplies anyway.

[xzar_monty]

30 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

You can last an awfully long time on a can of beans a day, if you have to.

This contains an interesting question, by the way. What you say is, of course, quite true. However, the operative word is last, and we've got to distinguish between 1) staying alive and 2) being fit enough to fight (in the modern way, with guns and whatnot -- not bare hands). #1 you can indeed do for astonishngly long, but I have no idea about #2. I suppose it must be at least weeks, though.

"D'abord, durer."

(Completely unrelated, but proper alcoholics can go without eating anything at all for unbelievable periods of time. There is so much energy in alcohol. Of course they lose their teeth and get all the available deficiencies, but many of them don't die.)

Edited April 21, 2022 by xzar_monty

[213374U]

11 hours ago, ShadySands said:

I generally agree with this but that totally represents my in-laws in Russia... though if it must be said, I cannot say whether those same sentiments are as widely held by the majority of Russians. 

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

 

5 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I have not ignored anything, nor have I flat out rejected anything. I have also made it very clear that much of what I have posted cannot be regarded as confirmed -- just go back and check. At this point, I question your ability to read.

I can't see any point in responding to you any further, as your tone continues to be both surprisingly hostile and very inappropriate. If this was a real-life situation (i.e. you being in an administrative position in a shop or something, like you are a moderator here), I'd have a chat with your boss. Here, there is no such option.

Right. So your musings about Russia's collective insanity is supposed to get a pass because, hey, it's "not confirmed" or what? How does that work?

I'm sorry that you regard my calling you out as hostile. It's the nature of an open environment where you post stuff, and people respond. You are of course free to keep waxing psychological, and there is no need to respond to me. But expect that I, and possibly others, will continue to reply to things you post whenever.

And by all means, go ahead and talk to my "boss". Here, I'll even tag him for you, so we can finally put the matter of moderators having opinions *gasp* to rest so that it's not something that merits a passive aggressive remark every time one of us posts something that a member doesn't like.

@Fionavar

 

3 hours ago, bugarup said:

Out of Xzar's list, only "2) Russia also clears essentially all of its western front in order to attack Ukraine, because it knows perfectly well that NATO has no intention to attack it, ever." may be interpreted as a speculation. Everything else can be fact-checked. Unless, of course, we speculate that Russia is so mired in lies that absolutely nothing their officials and propaganda mouthpieces say can be taken at face value....what would still prove Xzar's point, but in a roundabout way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It can be fact-checked? Can you verify that strikes on a variety of targets, including a missile workshop are in retaliation for the sinking of the Moskva, and only because of that? Can you show that there were no such strikes previous to the Moskva being sunk? I mean, a stated goal of the invasion is demilitarization of the country, so it stands to reason that they would attack such a target -- much like they've been doing from day one. Their rationale has been "it's in retaliation for attacks on Russian soil", of which we've seen one or two in the past few days. Don't get me wrong, this is Russia spinning facts to fit a narrative, but it is not internally inconsistent and suggesting that it's evidence of "madness" is a bit of a stretch.

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, 213374U said:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

 

w days. Don't get me wrong, this is Russia spinning facts to fit a narrative, but it is not internally inconsistent and suggesting that it's evidence of "madness" is a bit of a stretch.

@ShadySands is saying that sounds like his in-laws because they believe the Russian propaganda, thats my understanding?

And we fine with the word madness, its not a stretch at all 

 

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

This contains an interesting question, by the way. What you say is, of course, quite true. However, the operative word is last, and we've got to distinguish between 1) staying alive and 2) being fit enough to fight (in the modern way, with guns and whatnot -- not bare hands). #1 you can indeed do for astonishngly long, but I have no idea about #2. I suppose it must be at least weeks, though.

I don't think it's near that stage yet anyway. The footage of the pows from Ilyich has them looking thin, but not literally starving. They were just psychologically spent.

Something like Antarctic exploring may be a good parallel. Physically people could last ages, even doing hard physical labour, in a situation where- even on full rations- you literally can't process enough calories to keep up with energy requirements; so long as they didn't have any other options but to do so. If you do have those other options they become more and more attractive because even a potentially bad option is better than a definitely bad option.

[xzar_monty]

Here's Russia again being illogical and in breach of its own rules, so to speak.

Russian and Belarussian athletes have been banned from Wimbledon. Kreml spokesman Peskov is obviously incensed, and according to him, "Once again they simply turn athletes into hostages to political prejudice." Russia has long upheld its stance that politics and sports should be separate from one another. (Which, to a certain point, is a reasonable idea -- but we have gone far beyond that point since late February, 2022.)

But, on the other hand and at the same time, KHL hockey teams are essentially ordered to support the war effort in a letter which states, among other things, “We ask you to contribute to this campaign and to support the military together with the fans.” (Most if not all non-Russian teams have obviously already left the KHL.)

So, in any moment, Russia just takes whatever stance it regards as the one best serving its own interests, and there need be no logic nor truthfulness to this. It's unfortunate that we are not dealing with an entity that could be brought face to face with its manifold inconsistencies. It would be interesting to see how it tried to reconcile them to a coherent unity. So, cross-examining this "Russia" character in court would probably lead to some fascinating answers.

Edited April 21, 2022 by xzar_monty

[xzar_monty]

11 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Something like Antarctic exploring may be a good parallel. Physically people could last ages, even doing hard physical labour, in a situation where- even on full rations- you literally can't process enough calories to keep up with energy requirements; so long as they didn't have any other options but to do so. If you do have those other options they become more and more attractive because even a potentially bad option is better than a definitely bad option.

Agreed, that kind of exploring is probably a good parallel.

Also, motivation and desire can provide a huge psychological boost that translates into something physiological. A much more harmless example of this phenomenon can been seen in sports, especially endurance sports like marathon: people can stretch themselves far beyond their exhaustion point if there's strong enough motivation to do so, but once they cross that finish line, they're just done. The change in capacity that sometimes occurs in that instant is really quite remarkable.

There are, of course, limits. The phenomenon known as John Henryism is one way of trying to explore and explain this (although mostly in circumstances that last longer than wars).

[Oner]

In case anyone was wondering.

[Lexx]

21 minutes ago, Oner said:

In case anyone was wondering.

And now nobody can do Z for Zorro anymore. Thanks russia.

[xzar_monty]

The victory parade (mentioned in the video) and Russia's heroic victory over the Nazis also nicely ignores some extremely important parts of Russian history -- and, as such, yet again underlines how blatantly the country is ready to gloss over its own deeds.

Russia started World War II as an ally of the Nazis. This is not something the country wants to remember.

The big problem is not in the shifting alliances that may come along in times of extremity. The big problem is in the inherently untruthful approach that the country has taken in relation to itself, and, apparently, pretty much everything else as well.

[bugarup]

2 hours ago, 213374U said:

It can be fact-checked? Can you verify that strikes on a variety of targets, including a missile workshop are in retaliation for the sinking of the Moskva, and only because of that? Can you show that there were no such strikes previous to the Moskva being sunk? I mean, a stated goal of the invasion is demilitarization of the country, so it stands to reason that they would attack such a target -- much like they've been doing from day one. Their rationale has been "it's in retaliation for attacks on Russian soil", of which we've seen one or two in the past few days. Don't get me wrong, this is Russia spinning facts to fit a narrative, but it is not internally inconsistent and suggesting that it's evidence of "madness" is a bit of a stretch.

If I'm mistaken, Xzar can correct me, but I think that with 

"1) The ship Moskva sunk because there was a fire on board.

2) Retaliatory attacks on Ukraine are needed because the ship Moskva sunk."

he wasn't referring to (possibly) retaliatory attacks, but Russia's news channels in unison stating how Moskva sunk because of fire on board (as if ship sinking out of incompetence is somehow a better spin than it being sank by the enemy...), and at the same time, on the same TV channels their propaganda dogs howling for Ukrainian blood because "revenge for Moskva!"

 

Oh, and those of you who read about that guy from Novatek who "killed his wife and daughter before killing himself" in Moscow, may experience deja vu today as you read about the guy from Novatek who "killed his wife and daughter before killing himself", but those are different guys from Novatek.

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-novatek-manager-protosenya-dead/31814581.html

 

 

[pmp10]

Azovstal to be blockaded instead of stormed
Makes sense given the supposed number of civilians in there, but I doubt that means end of bombardment.

A hostage situation might develop over this.
Ukraine has already offered prisoners in exchange.  

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

So, in any moment, Russia just takes whatever stance it regards as the one best serving its own interests

So, like everyone else then, heh.  

[xzar_monty]

16 minutes ago, bugarup said:

If I'm mistaken, Xzar can correct me, but I think that with 

"1) The ship Moskva sunk because there was a fire on board.

2) Retaliatory attacks on Ukraine are needed because the ship Moskva sunk."

he wasn't referring to (possibly) retaliatory attacks, but Russia's news channels in unison stating how Moskva sunk because of fire on board (as if ship sinking out of incompetence is somehow a better spin than it being sank by the enemy...), and at the same time, on the same TV channels their propaganda dogs howling for Ukrainian blood because "revenge for Moskva!"

Precisely this is what I meant. Presenting these two simultaneously is illogical in the extreme. If the ship sunk because of a fire, clearly there is no need for revenge, but as revenge is called for, clearly the ship did not sink because of a fire.

[xzar_monty]

15 minutes ago, Malcador said:

So, like everyone else then, heh.  

To an extent, yes. The big difference with Russia (and some other countries, such as North Korea) is that Russia appears willing to concoct any story to support its supposed interests. Germany, for instance, has never claimed that the Jews built their own concentration camps and then annihilated one another in them. Russia is currently doing essentially this.

[xzar_monty]

22 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Oh, and those of you who read about that guy from Novatek who "killed his wife and daughter before killing himself" in Moscow, may experience deja vu today as you read about the guy from Novatek who "killed his wife and daughter before killing himself", but those are different guys from Novatek.

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-novatek-manager-protosenya-dead/31814581.html

Wow! Thanks for this. Seems like internal and/or external pressures are becoming literally intolerable, and so people resort to truly desperate measures.

One may ask which shows more character and moral fortitude, committing a murder-suicide or continuing as a supporter/puppet of an intolerably brutal totalitarian regime. (I have no answer.)

[Gorth]

44 minutes ago, Lexx said:

And now nobody can do Z for Zorro anymore. Thanks russia.

So much potential for Zombie memes though

[Malcador]

I suppose the degree of lying does matter, yes.  Bit of extreme analogy there, though.  I find that Wimbledon ban a bit of nonsense, but it is to be expected from Britain. I assume the US Open would as well.  I guess it would set a bad precedent, but I think people are kidding themselves if they think it will - the wrong people might get banned in future.

[xzar_monty]

24 minutes ago, Malcador said:

So, like everyone else then, heh.  

(To take another look at this)

But then, not really. To take your country as an example: Canada is not currently engaged in cooking up a story according to which, for instance, the country was inflitrated by a group of ruthless murderers who entered Catholic schools and shamelessly killed quite a lot of children in them. And from specific ethnic backgrounds as well. Canada is doing something altogether different, and good for them, too. I wonder if you'd disagree.

The selfishness argument can be applied to this, too, of course, but it can be applied to absolutely everything. If there's someone dying on my doorstep and I help him, it can always be argued that I only have a selfish interest: to make myself feel better. This can never be avoided. I would argue, however, that "common sense", that most uncommon thing, can generally distinguish between selfish and unselfish acts.

[xzar_monty]

2 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I suppose the degree of lying does matter, yes.  Bit of extreme analogy there, though.  I find that Wimbledon ban a bit of nonsense, but it is to be expected from Britain. I assume the US Open would as well.  I guess it would set a bad precedent, but I think people are kidding themselves if they think it will - the wrong people might get banned in future.

My sense is that the sporting line is taken because Russia has historically placed a lot of importance on sports. Putin also, as a person, has placed a lot of importance on it, too. This may be one reason behind these bans. But I don't know.