Ukraine Conflict - Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine tätige Unwissenheit

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Mamoulian War said:

Around the Moskva, there are slowly emerging rumours, that it might have carried Nuclear Missiles. Anyone here with a good knowledge into naval military stuff, who can do some theorycrafting, how plausible this statement might be?

It carried two types of ballistic missiles that have nuclear warhead variants. But It is unlikely that they have wasted storage base for ammunition that they aren't planning to use.

[Katphood]

A very interesting read :

https://www.sott.net/article/466340-Retired-Swiss-Military-Intelligence-Officer-Is-it-Possible-to-Actually-Know-What-Has-Been-And-is-Going-on-in-Ukraine

[kanisatha]

4 hours ago, Elerond said:

It carried two types of ballistic missiles that have nuclear warhead variants. But It is unlikely that they have wasted storage base for ammunition that they aren't planning to use.

Indeed.

The Slava class was built with the capacity to carry and use nukes for both its anti-sub rocket system and its land-attack/anti-ship missile system. But they have not carried nukes since the end of the Cold War. So I also would agree it is highly unlikely Moskva took on nukes for this mission. But at the same time, many of Russia's decisions in this war make little sense, so who knows. It's possible in the current environment, the Russians saw Moskva's role as including nuclear deterrence against NATO in the Black Sea.

[kanisatha]

Two extremely interesting and intriguing recent bits of information:

Biden Administration debate on how far to go sharing intel with Ukraine:

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-biden-united-states-europe-b12831d7c6990c1b76802b16845b75a2

Russians pissed at extent of US and allied military aid to Ukraine:

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-04-15/russia-warns-us-to-stop-arming-ukraine-5694229.html

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Around the Moskva, there are slowly emerging rumours, that it might have carried Nuclear Missiles. Anyone here with a good knowledge into naval military stuff, who can do some theorycrafting, how plausible this statement might be?

You mean people just regurgitating BS?

[Mamoulian War]

More info about Moskva by BBC Russia. The information by the Russian MoD, that they rescued all 510 sailors are most likely false. What a surprise

https://t.me/bbcrussian/26888

Google translated:

"Maritime security of Ukraine: the crew of "Moscow" was not evacuated due to a storm

The Russian military failed to evacuate the crew of the sunken cruiser "Moskva", said Natalya Gumenyuk, spokeswoman for the Ukrainian border guard maritime guard.

"The hit led to the detonation of the ammunition - and the struggle for survivability began. We watched how other ships tried to provide assistance, but even the forces of nature were on the side of Ukraine. Because the storm did not allow either to carry out a calm rescue operation or to evacuate the crew. Defeats so serious that the combat capability of the ship has been lost," she said.

The night before, the Russian Ministry of Defense confirmed that the cruiser had sunk. Representatives of the Ukrainian authorities reported that the Moskva cruiser was attacked by Ukrainian Neptune missiles. Russia does not recognize this.

According to the statement of the Russian Ministry of Defense, the crew of the cruiser was evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet in the area. The department did not mention the dead or wounded.

On Friday, Russian news agencies, citing sources, reported that the crew of the Moskva cruiser had been delivered to Sevastopol. At the same time, the interlocutors of the agencies did not specify how many people were on the cruiser when the fire started there, and how many sailors were evacuated."

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, 213374U said:

I figure it's a matter of time now that a Polish airbase or Romanian depot will catch a cruise missile or two. And then the nukes can finally start flying. Luckily, I've read "reports" on twatter that Russian nukes don't actually work, so all will be well. Right guys?

...right?

Wily Russians remain so inept that they are a joke, yet will become a juggernaut if they win.  Maybe the water in Ukraine makes super soldiers.

[213374U]

30 minutes ago, Malcador said:

You mean people just regurgitating BS?

No, no. Twitter "reports". There's a difference -- these sometimes include Alamy stock photos, or ARMA clips.

--

In other news, Spanish journalist Soviet superspy Pablo González Pavel Rubtsov has been held incommunicado in a Polish prison for a month and a half, and stands accused of spying for the damn Russkies. The accusation is substantiated on the fact that he, uh, had a Russian passport. He faces charges that could land him behind bars for up to 10 years.

No right to counsel for you, Pavel, that'll teach you to love freedom!

Edited April 15, 2022 by 213374U

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, 213374U said:

No, no. Twitter "reports". There's a difference -- these sometimes include Alamy stock photos, or ARMA clips.

--

In other news, Spanish journalist Soviet superspy Pablo González Pavel Rubtsov has been held incommunicado in a Polish prison for a month and a half, and stands accused of spying for the damn Russkies. The accusation is substantiated on the fact that he, uh, had a Russian passport. He faces charges that could land him behind bars for up to 10 years.

No right to counsel for you, Pavel, that'll teach you to love freedom!

Links so we can confirm this story for ourselves, it doesnt sound very plausible that someone would get arrested  just for a Russian passport ?

 

[Zoraptor]

11 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Reactions in Russia don't appear too happy. By the way, it is really quite something to see stuff like this on television. No wonder the people are in a rage, if the quality of discussion has been like this for years and years already. So so sad.

 

 

They should have been bombing the railways from the start- the whining about war crimes would have drowned out a fleet of 747s, but they are and always have been legitimate targets. The criticism would also have been monumentally hypocritical given, well, incidents like Grdelica.

They should also have blown and kept blowing every bridge they didn't plan on using themselves. Can't hit a lot of the crossing of the Dniepr though since they're dams, but you get some lovely supply line choke points if they're the only option. And they already have a bridgehead over it in the south.

9 hours ago, Elerond said:

It carried two types of ballistic missiles that have nuclear warhead variants. But It is unlikely that they have wasted storage base for ammunition that they aren't planning to use.

Yeah, it's very unlikely.

(Ships do carry ammunition they don't plan on all the time- she probably had ASW ammo on board despite Ukraine having no subs for example. It isn't that she wouldn't have planned to use it so much as that nuclear missiles would potentially take up space for missiles they might intend to use)

4 hours ago, Malcador said:

Wily Russians remain so inept that they are a joke, yet will become a juggernaut if they win.  Maybe the water in Ukraine makes super soldiers.

Ah yes, the dichotomy of propaganda. Your enemy is precisely as brilliantly ruthless and cunning or monumentally inept and stupid as you need him to be for the scenario in hand.

I think my favourite way to get it to manifest itself inside two sentences is to suggest that since Russia is so inept and can't even handle Ukraine that defence spending can safely be cut instead of increased. After all, if they can't handle Ukraine how could they handle NATO?

[BruceVC]

Brilliant Putins War cartoon 

Edited April 16, 2022 by BruceVC

[Mamoulian War]

16 hours ago, Malcador said:

You mean people just regurgitating BS?

The possible nuclear warheads on Moskva were mentioned by BBC as well

[Mamoulian War]

According to former State Duma deputy, only 58 marines out of 510 were saved from Moskva.

And we might see first hints, where will be the next Special Military Operation taking place

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Lexx]

Why the hell would the US build biological laboratories in mongolia.

[Mamoulian War]

30 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Why the hell would the US build biological laboratories in mongolia.

Are you still trying to find any logic behind Russian statements?

[Azdeus]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

Why the hell would the US build biological laboratories in mongolia.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some Aralsk-7 like facility in Mongolia built by the Soviets, and the US financing a cleanup operation like they are with Aralsk-7.

[BruceVC]

48 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Are you still trying to find any logic behind Russian statements?

Can you guys think of one country since the end of the Cold War that has constantly and unashamedly been guilty of the level of misinformation that we are seeing from Russia. I use to think China was the worst with fake news but Russia has surpassed China now since the Ukraine invasion

" the US is building biological labs in Mongolia " 

And the funniest part is people believing it and repeating it. At least we not seeing that much  on this forum anymore, the last time was people cheerleading the invasion because of the "  denazification "  of Ukraine 

 

[kanisatha]

5 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

The possible nuclear warheads on Moskva were mentioned by BBC as well

Some nuclear weapons proliferation experts (academics) have also now said this publicly. The claim is that two of the sixteen P-1000 Vulkan anti-ship missiles had nuclear warheads, which was standard practice during Cold War deployments.

[Mamoulian War]

I have found one hour long video analysis of the possible consequences of long term conflict for the "west", Ukraine and Russia. It was worth the watch, and it answered a lot of my questions (e.g. why Ruble is still so strong). I would hope that here is at least one or two economy savvy forumites, which will watch it whole and point out to his strong sides and flaws of his analysis, and share it with us, I would be very grateful

 

 

[Chairchucker]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Can you guys think of one country since the end of the Cold War that has constantly and unashamedly been guilty of the level of misinformation that we are seeing from Russia.

I'll take 'the previous US President and associated administration' for 500, Alex.

[BruceVC]

11 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

I'll take 'the previous US President and associated administration' for 500, Alex.

Sure, Trump definitely spread fake news and misinformation at times

But not even close to what we seeing from Russia, Trumps  "alternative facts " were not about a war   special military operation and used to justify the invasion. He focused more on hyperbole that was aimed at his base and not the global community and comments at the UN and UNSC 

[rjshae]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Can you guys think of one country since the end of the Cold War that has constantly and unashamedly been guilty of the level of misinformation that we are seeing from Russia. I use to think China was the worst with fake news but Russia has surpassed China now since the Ukraine invasion

" the US is building biological labs in Mongolia " 

And the funniest part is people believing it and repeating it. At least we not seeing that much  on this forum anymore, the last time was people cheerleading the invasion because of the "  denazification "  of Ukraine 

I'm sure there is biological science taking place in Mongolia, so a biological lab would not be out of place. A bioweapons lab is something else entirely.

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

The possible nuclear warheads on Moskva were mentioned by BBC as well

Should lead with that then. Although wonder what that changes even if there are nuclear weapons aboard.

[rjshae]

23 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Russians pissed at extent of US and allied military aid to Ukraine:

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-04-15/russia-warns-us-to-stop-arming-ukraine-5694229.html

Bummer.

The Little-Known Role of the Soviet Union in the Vietnam War

Quote

From 1968 on, the Soviet Union provided the vast majority of the military and economic aid that North Vietnam received. They supplied their communist allies with food, petroleum, transport vehicles, iron, steel, fertilizer, arms, and ammunition. Most critically, the Soviets supplied all of this as aid rather than loans (as the Chinese had done early in the war). This eased the economic strain on North Vietnam and further advanced their war effort.

 

[BruceVC]

34 minutes ago, rjshae said:

I'm sure there is biological science taking place in Mongolia, so a biological lab would not be out of place. A bioweapons lab is something else entirely.

You think the US would build a biological lab or any type of biological lab in country that has  closer ties  to China ?