Ukraine Conflict - Das Himmelfahrtskommando

[Mamoulian War]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

This missile attack in Lviv is a big deal, for some reason.

Because Lviv is very close to Poland/Eu/NATO

[Mamoulian War]

1 hour ago, ComradeYellow said:

EDIT: Also reminder, Russia is trying to avoid civilian casualties, which could explain the apparent lack significant breakthroughs lately

That's why they bombed the Mariupol Theater with children inside and killed 300 people right? Or I forgot, it was not Russian army, it was Ukrainian nazis... You are even more silly than Lavrov, who is whining like an 3 year old girl...

[Zoraptor]

And the US bombed a civilian air raid shelter in Baghdad and killed 400+ people- that the DoD incontrovertibly knew was a civilian air raid shelter. Crap happens in war.

I bring it up all the time because it's very pertinent to the question of perception vs reality, but the surgical and precise ~1 year liberation of Mosul may well have killed more civilians than the barbaric and indiscriminate ~5 year Battle of Aleppo (governate, not just city) killed civilians and combatants. If the enemy is defending a city nothing is surer than that you will kill civilians, and a lot of them, doesn't matter who you are.

There's also the dichotomy of propaganda pretty obviously at work.

1) Russia is running out of arms and supplies.

2) Russia also has so much of both that they can be wasted deliberately targeting puppy orphanages and juice fountains for disabled old people rather than military targets.

The second is especially 'funny' when we've heard they've been 'almost out' of things like cruise missiles since week 1 ye they're also accused of deliberately using them on civilians.

1 hour ago, pmp10 said:

Yes, but these areas are being actively defended.
And let's be honest - Russians are capable of much worse than they have done so far.

Yep, if there was no concern for civilians they'd sit back and drop thermobarics on the place. That would definitely be a breach of the Geneva Conventions, but if you really don't care... TOS-1 can fire from well outside any ATGM range, let alone air dropped munitions like FOAB (lol, about as pointless as Tsar Bomba) and friends.

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

There's also the dichotomy of propaganda pretty obviously at work.

1) Russia is running out of arms and supplies.

2) Russia also has so much of both that they can be wasted deliberately targeting puppy orphanages and juice fountains for disabled old people rather than military targets.

These both can be true

Russian soldiers in front line may have running out of arms and supplies where they have plenty missiles and artillery shells 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Elerond

[Zoraptor]

That's general supply. The go to example there would be something like fuel. Russia has rather a lot of petrol and diesel, I think everyone accepts that, it's getting it to the front line that is potentially difficult.

Which is why I brought up cruise missiles specifically. According to 'western intelligence source' Russia has been running out of them- ie their stocks would be literally depleted, no more available, not just hard to deliver to the front in [timespan++] since week one, and not being able/ having enough to use them on military targets, and now according to the same sources they're also incredibly unreliable with a failure rate of 50%+.

Except, they also have plenty to fire pointlessly at civilians, apparently, and they're also apparently absolutely reliable, when fired at civilians.

That's propaganda, because the two claims are fundamentally incompatible. Or at least they're incompatible without some variation on "but they're just eeeeevil". Which is itself a very common sign of propaganda.

(The classic example of that sort of propaganda is the Syrian 'Barrel Bomb'. In reality, they were made because Syria was running out of proper bombs and you could roll them out of an otherwise useless transport helicopter with no specialist equipment, and they required basically nothing specialist to build either. They weren't used preferentially, or because they were particularly brutal- you didn't have Dorniers or B-17s and Lancasters dropping barrel bombs in area bombing specifically designed to kill civilians and destroy their cities, they dropped incendiaries and proper bomb(lets)- they were used because it was that or nothing.

Barrel bombs were ad hoc, had no guidance, they were highly unreliable. Except, when it came to targeting the last hospital in [cityname] and bakeries etc. Then, they were aimed with precision to embarrass a JDAM. At least, in western and rebel media they were.

Truth is, they were rolled out from above manpad ceiling- ie up to 5000m- over an area, with something like +/- 500 metres accuracy. You'd have difficulty hitting a hospital or bakery if you aimed for it a dozen times, and at 5000m the operators wouldn't have had a clue besides an initial gps or something. You also ended up with every bomb dropped from fixed wing craft being a 'barrel bomb' due to the hysteria in western media. Surprisingly, you can't actually roll a barrel out of a MiG 21 or Su 22 nor attach it to the hardpoints on the outside...

They were also so effective that when Russia supplied the Mi8s with proper bomb rails and Syria with proper bombs the barrel bomb... got deprecated instantly? Because the aim wasn't actually to pointlessly waste military resources targeting civilians in areas you'd ultimately have to pay to repair)

[Lexx]

4 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Except, they also have plenty to fire pointlessly at civilians, apparently, and they're also apparently absolutely reliable, when fired at civilians.

Or maybe we only hear about the ones that actually explode. Well, except for this one:

Spoiler

 

[213374U]

51 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Or maybe we only hear about the ones that actually explode. Well, except for this one:

That looks like the booster of a Smerch rocket[1][2] rather than a cruise missile. Which also explains why a) it didn't explode and b) why the damage to the house is just a hole in the roof and a destroyed kitchen sink.

edit: just for clarification, I assume you added that for humorous purposes and not because you think that's an actual cruise missile in someone's kitchen.

Edited March 26, 2022 by 213374U

[Hurlshort]

14 minutes ago, 213374U said:

That looks like the booster of a Smerch rocket[1][2] rather than a cruise missile. Which also explains why a) it didn't explode and b) why the damage to the house is just a hole in the roof and a destroyed kitchen sink.

edit: just for clarification, I assume you added that for humorous purposes and not because you think that's an actual cruise missile in someone's kitchen.

Way to cruise missile the fun out of the post.

[Zoraptor]

I'd have done that anyway, numbersman just got in quicker. Mistaking them for uxo is pretty common though- doubly ironic Yahoo doing so in an article about the '60% failure' claim.

(One of the first image search results for 'smerch booster' on duckduckgo is... an Intel CPU. Yeah, OK)

[Gorth]

Just a reminder... these threads have so far run relatively smoothly, considering the topic being of big importance to a number of community members. A few posts have been removed, but considering the volume, not enough to do drastic things. So, please keep in mind, discussing the politics, consequences, military aspects, putting figures on losses, advances and lost territory, financial consequences, and especially humanitarian consequences is fine, but there are things that are not fine. Mocking the dead and dying, those grieving lost ones and wishing death on or encourage the killing of people/groups of people (even if it's Scott Morrison) is not Ok. Such posts will be removed. Remember today's enemy is tomorrows friend (ask Germany and France or the US and Japan).

[pmp10]

An interesting little fact that went under-reported:
A few day ago 'United Russia' has opened an office in Mariupol even while fighting for the city center was still taking place.
That could mean captured southern Ukrainian land is meant for straight up annexation Crimea-style.

Edited March 27, 2022 by pmp10

[Zoraptor]

Going to be very interesting to see if a certain Ukrainian video released a couple of hours ago gets mentioned at all in the media.

[Gfted1]

Dont leave me hanging, link?

[Lexx]

No, no, it is much better if it is mysterious.

[kanisatha]

6 hours ago, pmp10 said:

An interesting little fact that went under-reported:
A few day ago 'United Russia' has opened an office in Mariupol even while fighting for the city center was still taking place.
That could mean captured southern Ukrainian land is meant for straight up annexation Crimea-style.

And relatedly:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10634885/Putin-deports-Ukrainians-camps-Russia-accused-putting-refugees-filtration-centres.html

Putin is literally stealing Ukrainian people, including taking children from orphanages and boarding schools, and even directly from their parents. Russia's barbarism knows no bounds.

[pmp10]

2 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Dont leave me hanging, link?

If it's the one I saw then it would violate board's ToS.
In case no western media picks it up, you can easily find it by googling 'Russian pow abuse'.

It's an open secret that Russian PoWs are not treated kindly.

[Gfted1]

Thanks for the heads up, I dont want to see that.  

[213374U]

19 minutes ago, pmp10 said:

If it's the one I saw then it would violate board's ToS.

It most certainly would. Discussing something that isn't allowed to be posted has proven problematic before, so I trust members' judgment to stay within the guidelines.

Not the first ugly video to come out, and sadly, certainly not the last.

 

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Dont leave me hanging, link?

Footage of Half Life 3

[Lexx]

Watched the HL3 footage now. It's pretty bad and good material for the russian propaganda side. At the same time I find the reactions on russian side a bit hypocritical, considering they are the ones who can't stop blowing up civilians.

Anyways ... Not much else to say. It's almost as if war is bad.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Lexx

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Going to be very interesting to see if a certain Ukrainian video released a couple of hours ago gets mentioned at all in the media.

Probably not, if covered at all it will be there but with their reminding everyone Russia did it as well or first. 

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Putin is literally stealing Ukrainian people, including taking children from orphanages and boarding schools, and even directly from their parents. Russia's barbarism knows no bounds.

Contrast this with the idea (expressed here, too) that Russia is trying to avoid civilian casualties, and things don't add up neatly at all.

Speaking of contrasts, I think it's psychologically both fascinating and terrifying that Russia is both an extremely cruel aggressor and the most childish whiner you've ever seen. Just look at Kreml's / Lavrov's / Putin's comments on how the naughty west is not being kind to them at all.

[Katphood]

 

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

Watched the HL3 footage now. It's pretty bad and good material for the russian propaganda side. At the same time I find the reactions on russian side a bit hypocritical, considering they are the ones who can't stop blowing up civilians.

It's very bad (didn't watch it and don't intend to) but these are people who have unlawfully attacked a sovereign country and whose mission is to kill both soldiers and civilians. It's not as if anyone has entered Russian soil with similar intentions.

[kanisatha]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Contrast this with the idea (expressed here, too) that Russia is trying to avoid civilian casualties, and things don't add up neatly at all.

Speaking of contrasts, I think it's psychologically both fascinating and terrifying that Russia is both an extremely cruel aggressor and the most childish whiner you've ever seen. Just look at Kreml's / Lavrov's / Putin's comments on how the naughty west is not being kind to them at all.

Yup. I brought this up myself in a post yesterday.

Putin, Lavrov et. al.: "We're going to do some outrageously brutal and horrific and criminal things to the Ukrainians, but the only wrong thing here is you nasty Westerners being mean to us about it all."