Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 3

[majestic]

9 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Magic Fang, thing that is used to buff critters? On one hand, would have never figured to try it on myself. On other, it is a barbarian...Also, I'm not opposed to Trickster since it looks more like Deadpool against Azata's My Little Pony and actually was my first pick for Mythic.  Plus I've read it allows to keep some of your Trickster stuff when you go Legend and I will certainly want to go Legend with one of builds. 

Magic Fang is used to make your unarmed attacks magical if they aren't otherwise. Yes, normally that goes on your pets and whatnot, but when you're playing a Motherless Tiefling with Beast Totem rage powers, that's sort of necessary.

Edit: Clarification: Motherless Tieflings have an additional unarmed attack and Greater Beast Totem gives the pounce ability and two unarmed claw attacks at full attack bonus. With it you're more beast than person, anyway... heh.

Edited February 3, 2022 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

18 minutes ago, majestic said:

Magic Fang is used to make your unarmed attacks magical if they aren't otherwise. Yes, normally that goes on your pets and whatnot, but when you're playing a Motherless Tiefling with Beast Totem rage powers, that's sort of necessary.

Edit: Clarification: Motherless Tieflings have an additional unarmed attack and Greater Beast Totem gives the pounce ability and two unarmed claw attacks at full attack bonus. With it you're more beast than person, anyway... heh.

Motherless and Beast Totem grant natural attacks, which for reasons known only to the 3e designers follow a different rule than unarmed. Most stuff that gives enhancement bonuses to unarmed and natural works together, but natural doesn't require improved unarmed strike to not provike aoos and can't be used with flurry of blows. It's weird and dumb.

[Gromnir]

a skald is gonna be able to multiply natural attacks for your entire party, though chances are you are disabling rage for your spell casters. now admitted 'cause o' the way pathfinder works, your critters is likely to get the most use from extra natural attacks 'cause they are the ones who is gonna have the appropriate weapon focus and critical modifying feats and whatnot. regardless, greater magic fang is particular useful with a skald buffing your party.

as to trickster, we wouldn't have a problem with trickster if it were deadpool v. my little pony. unfortunate, trickster ain't some kinda wisecracking anti-hero but instead is philippe pétain, benedict arnold and regina george all rolled into one... w/o the funny aspects o' those three. the wotr trickster handbook would be titled, how to win friends and then betray them when it is convenient. we only played trickster in the beta and have no urge to play again. is no question the trickster mythic path is gonna be op for many builds, but we would prefer to chew aluminum foil than play a trickster. 

HA! Good Fun!

[majestic]

2 minutes ago, KP the Torque Dork said:

Motherless and Beast Totem grant natural attacks, which for reasons known only to the 3e designers follow a different rule than unarmed. Most stuff that gives enhancement bonuses to unarmed and natural works together, but natural doesn't require improved unarmed strike to not provike aoos and can't be used with flurry of blows. It's weird and dumb.

Yeah, you're right. I keep lumping both into the same category for some reason.

2 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

a skald is gonna be able to multiply natural attacks for your entire party, though chances are you are disabling rage for your spell casters. now admitted 'cause o' the way pathfinder works, your critters is likely to get the most use from extra natural attacks 'cause they are the ones who is gonna have the appropriate weapon focus and critical modifying feats and whatnot. regardless, greater magic fang is particular useful with a skald buffing your party.

That might be fun to combine with a Motherless Tiefling Monk(1)/Vivisectionist/Arcane Enforcer(3) Trickster, you'll end up zipping around the battlefield with impunity and dishing out ridiculous sneak attack damage, and with Great Magic Fang + Shatter Defenses you'd actually hit stuff, can buff yourself with Shield and Barkskin, get some easier use out of Archmage Armour (not that there's any lack of potions). Feral Mutagen/Feral Wings/Mobility 1, and for fun you can take infusion and uhm cast Beast Shape on your pets, because why not turn them into beasts twice?

Just need the proper party for it. For anything caster heavy Court Poet is probably still the better choice.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 minutes ago, majestic said:

Yeah, you're right. I keep lumping both into the same category for some reason.

Don't worry, so does Paizo and Owlcat (intermittently).

[Gromnir]

8 hours ago, majestic said:

 

Just need the proper party for it. For anything caster heavy Court Poet is probably still the better choice.

our opinion is kinda reversed from yours, but that sure don't make us right.

explanation:

one reason blasters is popular in wotr is 'cause they do not rely on spell dc, and 'cause is ez to overcome high sr. touch ac is often a negligible hurdle to overcome . yeah, particular later in the game as you want your siroccos, chain lightnings and storm bolts to reliable do damage or prone and/or stun, the dcs for blasters is a real concern, and you may simultaneous raise your dcs o' at least one other school via the expanded arsenal mythic, but practical speaking, is only a few highly specialized wotr caster builds which is focused on generating high dc. the stat bloat kp laments requires highly focused efforts on behalf o' the player at generating proportional caster dc bloat. converse, an oracle angel may ignore dc entire and spam bolt and storm o' justice for wins, precise 'cause dcs is such a non factor for the angel spellbook.

we went for eight levels o' court poet with seelah for our azata sorc run, and the sorc benefited only marginal from the dc increase o' +2. with a full court poet we coulda' managed a +3 modifier to charisma (and int), which ultimate were not worth the effort in our estimation as eleven levels o' paladin resulted in seelah having mark o' justice.  worked out well enough for us particularly as seelah's mark of justice and smites were improved by her own court poet inspirations... and lann's celestial velociraptor also benefited. if you go the blaster route, ember only benefits a little from the dc boost and her hexes is so fantastic 'cause there isn't saves. converse, go enchantment with ember and and any dc boost is vital. is possible to make nenio an excellent blaster, with levels o' arcane trickster and a single level o' crossblood sorc, in which case dcs is again a nice bonus but not essential. instead go the illusion route with nenio to maximize impact o' phantasmal killer and weird makes court poet boosts valuable. etc. court poet is fantastic, but is the skald variation one need be most concerned 'bout building the ideal party to exploit.

vanilla skald, on the other hand, is gonna benefit just 'bout any party. for example, if you got a party o' melee combatants, then the extra natural attacks and stacking bonus to natural ac (barkskin and the beast totem stuff stack) is gonna be a meaningful upgrade, and is not as if you are limited to animal fury and the beast totem powhaz. three extra natural attacks and pounce, all o' which make a crit more likely. if you built your party to take advantage o' seize the moment and ever ready, all those extra attacks is making essential crits more likely, yes?  the lethal stance stuff is also representing a noteworthy increase in damage output for your party. we seen how folks mention that the only way to get 24 hour benefit from haste is with a lich build. not true. admitted is a capstone feature o' skald, but master skald simultaneous perma hastes and and removes any negative rage penalties, so even your casters is free to enjoy skald stance advantages at endgame. 

other skald stance stuff is gonna be useful although beast and lethal is our favorites. am less a fan o' the fiend totem stuff, but am able to see benefits. smell is underrated 'cause it acts like echolocation. the reckless stance line is underrated as is one o' the ways to generate stratospheric ab bonuses. unless it has been nerfed, inspire ferocity, which seems like a wasted ability for a skald, functional doubles the benefits o' reckless stance. so at level 20 you are seeing +12 ab? 

skald is kinda insane with the shared stances and is gonna benefit a large range o' party loadouts, however, if you is having dc focused casters and paladins in your party, then court poet is a serious contender as the best option.

HA! Good Fun!

ps am admitted still grumpy 'bout our waterfall fail with our azata sorc. was such a good plan to max conjuration dcs to exploit waterfall, and the spell works fine 'gainst mobs as the end game low 30s dc is more than enough to achieve cold vulnerability. however, as waterfall is an azata spell, you are not gonna get many casts per rest, so is not a spell to waste on mobs unless they is accompanying a boss. the reason we wanted waterfall were to up our boss killing game, and maxed dc 35 just weren't what we had envisioned. 35ish is not terrible, but is not reliable boss ending dc. is not as if there ain't a whole lotta excellent conjuration spells which were improved by our dc boosting efforts, but with a chance to do over, we woulda' gone with enchantment/evocation or illusion/evocation for our dc boosting scheme.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Gromnir

[majestic]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

skald is kinda insane with the shared stances and is gonna benefit a large range o' party loadouts, however, if you is having dc focused casters and paladins in your party, then court poet is a serious contender as the best option.

You're probably right, I just don't ever really end up playing parties that benefit more from a vanilla Skald than a Court Poet, but that's probably just a personal issue and preferred playstyle (I like my enchantment Ember and Sirocco-Spam Nenio ). Making Seelah a Court Poet isn't mutally exclusive with having a Smite Bot around, unless you're generally dead set against mercenaries - that's one point where a mercenary character is just leaps and bounds ahead of any companion.

Could probably also make an Angel Oracle MC for that, but that's an "I WIN" button you just need to press all of its own (and doesn't have Mark of Justice).

Speaking of Stormbolts and Chain Lightnings, by the way, ever tried giving a caster Arcane Armor Mastery, equip them with Zon-Kuron’s Suffocating Caress and then have a Cleric cast Extended Jolting Portent on them? That's kinda hilarious, especially for a Trickster run when you have access to Completely Normal Spell, just fill your spell levels with various metamagic'ed versions...

Could also just Extended Acid Arrow yourself with Stormlord's Resolve active, I guess. Nothing like playing Palpatine for a bit.

[Gromnir]

sounds fun.

our current preferred sosiel caster build is to take one level o' cross blood sorc and go cold. is a relic shield which adds 1 point per die on cold damage spells. is wintersun armour which provides +1 per die elemental damage (including cold). through mythic feats, am gonna get 2 more per die damage for cold and am of course having ascendent element cold as well as the water elemental bloodline power which converts all energy spells to cold. 

4 pts per die unavoidable cold damage maybe doesn't sound great until you do the math. quickened cold hellfire rays is resulting in +360 bonus cold damage in a round. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps "maybe" were placed wrong

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Gromnir

[Agiel]

14 hours ago, Gromnir said:

 

as to trickster, we wouldn't have a problem with trickster if it were deadpool v. my little pony. unfortunate, trickster ain't some kinda wisecracking anti-hero but instead is philippe pétain, benedict arnold and regina george all rolled into one... w/o the funny aspects o' those three. the wotr trickster handbook would be titled, how to win friends and then betray them when it is convenient. we only played trickster in the beta and have no urge to play again. is no question the trickster mythic path is gonna be op for many builds, but we would prefer to chew aluminum foil than play a trickster. 

HA! Good Fun!

I got more of Tom Hulce as Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart vibe from that path (with Queen Galfrey as Salieri, of course):

Funnily enough, some incidental dialogue from the citizens in Drezen have them speaking backwards too.

[Gromnir]

am always rooting for salieri. he woulda' been a good model for trickster.

and if trickster lethal "pranks" were reminding us o' peter shaffer's salieri, we would likely be on board... although salieri is decided not aiming for silly. unfortunate, wotr trickster were so haphazard and randomn as to which folks deserved death jokes. 

regardless, to keep with the animated/comic characters theme, no deadpool antihero is the trickster. is a d&d alignment bringer o' chaos who indulges in lethal humor... so more like joker?

however, am clear not the audience for trickster, so...

HA! Good Fun!

ps (edit) am playing via steam and a week ago we received "prelate's nemesis" as a new achievement. we near never pay attention to achievements, but were so random as our current playthrough had us in act iv with our aeon, so am assuming some bug were addressed and not referenced in notes. we first beat the critter on core w/i days o' release, and have killed the beastie multiple times since. so...

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Gromnir

[majestic]

Finally started an unfair run, i.e. begin on Unfair difficulty, never change. In order to make this less tedious, I made a Lawful Good Kindred Half-Elf Oracle. Started with 21 CHA, Nature Mystery, Wolf-Scarred and Nature's Whispers. Dumped DEX, took a dip in Scaled-Fist Monk and will eventually take two levels of Paladin. With my entire defense scaling based on charisma (and the neat double AC scaling) Seelah will once again turn into a Court Poet.

Planned character progression for the initial bits is Second Mystery Ancestors for the Spirit Shield revelation and Master Shapeshifter for some extra hilarity with Use Magic Device'd Dragonform scrolls.

Might actually make a Brown-Fur Transmuter mercenary instead of taking Nenio for even more bonus stats on those transmutations. Seems like a bit of a waste given Seelah's ability to boost caster stats which isn't exactly necessary for a glorified buff bot with a secondary role as blaster caster (well, that'll still help Ember), but Extend spell plus the Arcanist Exploits should make even those really short buffs last ridiculously long, and it's kinda hard to argue with even more bonus stats, huh?

I expect the combat is going to look like: Prebuff. Oracle goes BRRRRRRRR. Loot.

Edited February 6, 2022 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

6 minutes ago, majestic said:

Finally started an unfair run, i.e. begin on Unfair difficulty, never change.

Hopefully you won't get destroyed by 1.2.

7 minutes ago, majestic said:

I expect the combat is going to look like: Prebuff. Oracle goes BRRRRRRRR. Loot.

Are you using the buff mod?

[uuuhhii]

13 minutes ago, majestic said:

Finally started an unfair run, i.e. begin on Unfair difficulty, never change. In order to make this less tedious, I made a Lawful Good Kindred Half-Elf Oracle. Started with 21 CHA, Nature Mystery, Wolf-Scarred and Nature's Whispers. Dumped DEX, took a dip in Scaled-Fist Monk and will eventually take two levels of Paladin. With my entire defense scaling based on charisma (and the neat double AC scaling) Seelah will once again turn into a Court Poet.

Planned character progression for the initial bits is Second Mystery Ancestors for the Spirit Shield revelation and Master Shapeshifter for some extra hilarity with Use Magic Device'd Dragonform scrolls.

Might actually make a Brown-Fur Transmuter mercenary instead of taking Nenio for even more bonus stats on those transmutations. Seems like a bit of a waste given Seelah's ability to boost caster stats which isn't exactly necessary for a glorified buff bot with a secondary role as blaster caster (well, that'll still help Ember), but Extend spell plus the Arcanist Exploits should make even those really short buffs last ridiculously long, and it's kinda hard to argue with even more bonus stats, huh?

I expect the combat is going to look like: Prebuff. Oracle goes BRRRRRRRR. Loot.

no need to take 2 level of paladin if seelah are in the team

full caster doesn't actually need to invest much in defence

bring a brown fur to make animal companion and martial completely broken are always good

[majestic]

1 minute ago, uuuhhii said:

no need to take 2 level of paladin if seelah are in the team

The two levels of Paladin are there to provide Divine Grace for the MC plus some bonus feats. Considering I'll end up having a +11 to saves that way before the Court Poet buff, that's going to be a great finishing touch to the build.

5 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

full caster doesn't actually need to invest much in defence

It's a caster/melee hybrid. Buff, go BRRR, loot. At least that's the general idea. I mean, sure, Angel spells being what they are, mook groups can just be blown apart.

7 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

bring a brown fur to make animal companion and martial completely broken are always good

See, now that's a good idea, with the Nature Mystery I can work a pet in there as well. Sorry Nenio, it's the bench for you this time around. Any takers for a Dragonform'ed Wolf? Huh.

15 minutes ago, KP the Torque Dork said:

Are you using the buff mod?

No, I don't have any mods installed at the moment, but the important buffs are going to last a while before long anyway. I can live with that.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 minutes ago, majestic said:

No, I don't have any mods installed at the moment, but the important buffs are going to last a while before long anyway. I can live with that.

You might want to check this out:

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/195

Imagine getting that 10 minutes of buffing done in seconds.

[majestic]

1 minute ago, KP the Torque Dork said:

You might want to check this out:

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/195

Imagine getting that 10 minutes of buffing done in seconds.

That does look nice. Hmmm...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 minutes ago, majestic said:

That does look nice. Hmmm...

Given how long those buff sessions take, it's a big relief. Probably saves several hours in total.

[uuuhhii]

paladin have a level 2 spell that give any good character charisma to save

so give seelah 24 hours spell and use that are more efficient

though it can be dispelled rather easily

[majestic]

50 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

paladin have a level 2 spell that give any good character charisma to save

so give seelah 24 hours spell and use that are more efficient

though it can be dispelled rather easily

Ah, you mean Bestow Grace, that's something Seelah's not going to reach. She'll be too busy being better at singing than she'd ever be at playing Paladin.  

[bugarup]

My sorcerer finally got liched yesterday (that siege seemingly takes three times as long as the rest of the chapter, though it is a nice dungeon). Was delighted at the view of no save spells, maybe now I could do some damage too instead of leaking oil everywhere like a broken car. @Gromnir, you were not joking about the smiteraptor - as soon as she got celestial she became my most trustworthy and more importantly, reliable damage dealer.  Her kill count is way ahead of everyone else's and she deleted majority of bosses, including the Highly Annoying Sarkorian Ghost, the only problem we had was the cultist wizard who got very salty about her thwarted summoning (Chorussina, I think. And  next time I encounter her I'm dropping my difficulty to zero just to smear her all across her own pentagram, because it makes no sense to burn all your resources on lowest of the low i.e. cultist filth ). 

Does the lich power that gets stronger depending on number of dead things in surroundings include your own party and summons? Would be an incentive to bring out your bone friends over meatbags, though I don't have any yet. 

Is there any way to make Sosiel faster? In turn-based when he finally lumbers into position to do, well, anything, combat is usually over. Don't want to enlarge his dog for riding, I need him in the frontlines tripping. 

 

 

[Gromnir]

7 hours ago, bugarup said:

 

Is there any way to make Sosiel faster? In turn-based when he finally lumbers into position to do, well, anything, combat is usually over. Don't want to enlarge his dog for riding, I need him in the frontlines tripping. 

 

 

possibly went unnoticed, but at level seven, a dog gets embiggened. the pooch should now (assuming you is 10th level or so based on your lich status) be large and rideable unless you also enlarge your sosiel.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[bugarup]

16 hours ago, Gromnir said:

possibly went unnoticed, but at level seven, a dog gets embiggened. the pooch should now (assuming you is 10th level or so based on your lich status) be large and rideable unless you also enlarge your sosiel.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Babby Lich is a couple hundreds XP short off level 10 and dog's not rideable yet, but doesn't riding turn the animal into just an additional health bar for the rider? At least Seelah's horse doesn't do anything else when she rides it, and I need the pooch do his stuff on the front line along with Miss Rapta. 

I do embiggen Sosiel for now, so that he can whack someone from the distance without having to exert his slow self with walking too much. Anyway, the Lich arrived to the fun levels zone and that's where I'll park him for now and do leveling chores with a couple 'nother characters. Maybe I'll give Soz a different beastie now. Maybe a mammoth. Maybe I'll then embiggen them both to have a giant Sosiel on a giant mammoth. 

[Gromnir]

am a bit confused. level seven is when dogs become large and thus rideable for a medium sized character such as sosiel. if is sosiel's dog via animal domain, the critter should be rideable and at level 9. if the goal is to get sosiel and the dog into combat, then don't make sosiel bigger 'cause the dog is much faster than a large sosiel. when you go into combat mounted on the dog, you will be stuck with sosiel's initiative, but the dog and sosiel will get their respective attacks, including the dog's trip. however, there is lingering issues with tb mounted combat and reach weapons. sometimes your reach weapon character will be too far away for your mount to attack. is not an issue most times, but it still happens even after four months post release.

if you are making sosiel bigger to squeeze every possible point outta strength for intimidation, then perhaps avoid mounted combat. even so, am not 100% clear on the issues you are having with sosiel and the dog.

HA! Good Fun!

ps other than a few lingering and annoying bugs related to tb mounted combat, our most significant obstacle when dealing with mounts, particular at lower and mid levels, is the sucktastic will saves o' animal companions.  until you reach higher levels you will necessarily be constrained by your limited spell repertoire and the effort to insulate your animal companions from predictable will save failure is a noteworthy spell and feat cost drain. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Gromnir

[Taevyr]

Recently finished a run as a longbow slayer on the Demon Path: what seemed an unoptomized rp-choice that worked due to longbows being op, eventually became THE kiter on steroids thanks to the demonic charge that becomes outright ridiculous, especially on a map with some cliffs/cracks/fences. Not to mention the Demon Aspect stat/skill increases, especially when combined with the pre-drezen Trickster mythic. I had something like 60 perception by the end of game.

Haven't done many "evil" playthroughs, but this one scratched the itch well. Neutral Evil demon worked for me, and I haven't had many games where gradually killing off over half the companions felt like the right choice, rp-wise. The ones left were Woljif, Greybor, Regill, Daeran and Ember, with Arue leaving the party when I locked into demon. Never got a chance to kill Ember (and my MC'd be hesitant to try, considering her capabilties), and while she still seemed to trust my MC in the end, it's definitely an "Am I creating my own enemy here" situation.

Game's stll a bit of a buggy mess, and act 5 felt like a huge letdown, but I enjoyed most of it. Kingmaker eventually became decent in the final version, so I'll wait for another playthrough until WotR reaches that.

[uuuhhii]

longbow was decent

but cleaving shot was the thing that allow range weapon to compete with some ridiculous aoo melee martial