The TV and Streaming Thread: Series 5

[Amentep]

I think its part of the same thing - its an erosion of the original idea that removes the "problems" so that it ends up basically remaking anything that was unique so that instead it becomes every other SF show or movie.

[Hurlshort]

4 hours ago, majestic said:

SG1's final episode is called "Unending" because that's what it was, an un-ending. It resolved nothing of the ongoing storylines. 

Atlantis' final episode was a hastily cobbled together mess of ideas that were supposed to be developed over a full season, not one episode. 

Universe was cancelled on a cliffhanger.

Only SG1 got final straight to DVD films to deal with the storylines, and they were, while not bad, certainly not great. 

You'd have a point if SG1 ended with Season 7 or 8. But it didn't...

I guess I should have said SG1. I never finished Atlantis and Universe looked boring. 

[Guard Dog]

All of the Star Trek shows do need a few seasons to “hit their stride” so to speak. I didn’t really like any of the first episodes when I first saw them. DS9 I didn’t think much of when I saw the premiere episode but now when I rewatch it I think it’s really good. Maybe because as a younger man at the time I couldn’t really identify with Sisko. Now that I’m older and life has kicked me in the gut a few times I found him much more sympathetic. But the trend on Star Trek usually is to start week and finish strong(ish)
 

BSG was the opposite. The miniseries was outstanding. The very first episode of the show, 33, was arguably the best of the whole run. By the end of season 1 when Adama was shot they had me eating out of their hand.

season two did not disappoint either. Then after New Caprica it lost its way with the “final five” nonsense. The Starbuck death and resurrection made no sense. Oh my god when a show or a movie series kills off a character please just leave them in the ground. Looking at you Star Wars. Resurrecting dead characters is almost as lame as time travel.

[majestic]

9 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

All of the Star Trek shows do need a few seasons to “hit their stride” so to speak. I didn’t really like any of the first episodes when I first saw them. DS9 I didn’t think much of when I saw the premiere episode but now when I rewatch it I think it’s really good.

Even then, they had a decent setup and potential (and in the case of Voyager, it stayed mostly unrealized). Discovery and Picard are utterly devoid of that. There is nothing, absolutely nothing you can do with these. 

The only time Discovery got any fun as a show was when they had mirror universe episodes, and that was mostly because they threw everything out and told the actors to have fun and chew the scenery in best Shatnarian tradition. It sure wasn't Star Trek, but it was fun to watch - unlike the DS9 mirror universe episodes that I generally found very annoying. 

Picard's entire premise is as dumb as Jar Jar Abram's opening narration of Star Trek 2009. No, the Romulan sun going supernova will not threaten the entire galaxy you hack, and no, Mr. Dreckzman, it will not cause a refugee crisis later that will threaten to undermine - or has undermined - the values of the Federation. It will cause a crisis for the Romulans, of course, but eh, other than that? Nobody's willing to take in refugees? 

And that's just the premise, never mind the presence of Mass Effect style mechanical reaper beings that look like Mecha-Cthulu and regularily cull organics when called upon by repressed AIs some 30 years after "The Measure of a Man".

Man, how I wish I didn't make this up. 

[Keyrock]

2 hours ago, Amentep said:

I think its part of the same thing - its an erosion of the original idea that removes the "problems" so that it ends up basically remaking anything that was unique so that instead it becomes every other SF show or movie.

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with sci-fi shows that are darker and more violent, some of them are quite good, but there's no shortage of shows like that. Star Trek was different, that's what made it special.

12 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

All of the Star Trek shows do need a few seasons to “hit their stride” so to speak. I didn’t really like any of the first episodes when I first saw them. DS9 I didn’t think much of when I saw the premiere episode but now when I rewatch it I think it’s really good. Maybe because as a younger man at the time I couldn’t really identify with Sisko. Now that I’m older and life has kicked me in the gut a few times I found him much more sympathetic. But the trend on Star Trek usually is to start week and finish strong(ish)

It took TNG 2 seasons to really get going, and those first 2 seasons had some dog**** episodes, but they still had enough kernels of goodness to keep me tuned in. DS9 I loved from the start that show had me hooked right away. Voyager is kind of a blur to me. I remember having a love hate relationship with that show, but I've mostly forgotten the details. Neelix is the only character that left a memorable impression on me. Enterprise was, how do I put this, not good.

[Amentep]

12 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with sci-fi shows that are darker and more violent, some of them are quite good, but there's no shortage of shows like that. Star Trek was different, that's what made it special.

It took TNG 2 seasons to really get going, and those first 2 seasons had some dog**** episodes, but they still had enough kernels of goodness to keep me tuned in. DS9 I loved from the start that show had me hooked right away. Voyager is kind of a blur to me. I remember having a love hate relationship with that show, but I've mostly forgotten the details. Neelix is the only character that left a memorable impression on me. Enterprise was, how do I put this, not good.

I like darker and violent shows, but I also like variety.  Unfortunately I think the general modus operandi in modern media is "how can we make this more like [insert something popular]?"  Since anti-heroes are all the rage, I think Paramount/CBS have been doing backflips for years to figure out how to make Star Trek focused on anti-heroes.

TNG Season 1 and 2 had some storytelling problems (and I think that Roddenberry himself created some issues and you just feel a fight behind the scenes about the show was going on in that it lurches back and forth a good bit and can't seem to decide how to use some of the characters), but I'd still rank them over season 5 which is, IMO the worst season so far on my re-watching (but even Season 5 has some good episodes).  I think the thing about TNG that helps it is a really, really good cast.  

[majestic]

42 minutes ago, Amentep said:

TNG Season 1 and 2 had some storytelling problems (and I think that Roddenberry himself created some issues and you just feel a fight behind the scenes about the show was going on in that it lurches back and forth a good bit and can't seem to decide how to use some of the characters), but I'd still rank them over season 5 which is, IMO the worst season so far on my re-watching (but even Season 5 has some good episodes).  I think the thing about TNG that helps it is a really, really good cast.  

 

*backs away very, very slowly from this thread*

 

 

 

 

[Gfted1]

Im totally using that picture in the future.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

And that's just the premise, never mind the presence of Mass Effect style mechanical reaper beings that look like Mecha-Cthulu and regularily cull organics when called upon by repressed AIs some 30 years after "The Measure of a Man".

I should go.

[Sarex]

I have a confession to make, I only ever watched DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. I tried watching TNG after seeing DS9 and Voyager and couldn't get in to it. Maybe I was overdosed on Star Trek at that point, or maybe DS9 and Voyager are the better series.

[ShadySands]

2 hours ago, majestic said:

Discovery and Picard

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

23 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I have a confession to make, I only ever watched DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. I tried watching TNG after seeing DS9 and Voyager and couldn't get in to it. Maybe I was overdosed on Star Trek at that point, or maybe DS9 and Voyager are the better series.

DS9 is the most consistently good Trek, but Voyager had some neurotic writing and just ends up mediocre. That said TNG has a really boring start and Wesley so uhhh yeah. Though it will never not be funny to me how Geordi had less romantic relationships than an emotionless robot. 

[Amentep]

12 minutes ago, majestic said:

*backs away very, very slowly from this thread*

Those ****ing kid episodes in Season 5 were like watching paint dry on someone's ****ing armpit while being annoyed by a yippy dog that you can't do anything about.

But also, there's no accounting for taste, and no one's ever accused me of having good tastes!  

For me, just a quick gut check list comparing Season 1 and Season 5:

	SEASON 5	SEASON 1
S	"The Next Phase", "The Inner Light"	"Conspiracy", "Datalore"
A	"Darmok", "Ensign Ro", "Cause And Effect", "I, Borg"	"The Neutral Zone"
B	"The Game", "A Matter of Time", "Conundrum"	"Skin of Evil", "Hide and Q", "11001001", "The Last Outpost", "The Battle"
C	"The Masterpiece Society", "Power Play", "The Perfect Mate", "Time's Arrow, Part I", "Redemption, Part II"	"Code of Honor", "The Big Goodbye", "Too Short a Season", "Haven", "Encounter at Farpoint", "Lonely Among Us", "Where No One Has Gone Before"
D	"Unification, Part I", "The First Duty", "Cost of Living"	"When the Bough Breaks", "Home Soil", "Coming of Age", "Heart of Glory"
E	"Silicon Avatar", "Ethics", "Imaginary Friend"	"Justice", "Angel One", "The Arsenal of Freedom", "We'll Always Have Paris"
F	"Disaster", "Unification, Part II", "New Ground", "Hero Worship", "Violations", "The Outcast"	"Symbiosis", "The Naked Now"

 

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

I like darker and violent shows, but I also like variety.  Unfortunately I think the general modus operandi in modern media is "how can we make this more like [insert something popular]?"  Since anti-heroes are all the rage, I think Paramount/CBS have been doing backflips for years to figure out how to make Star Trek focused on anti-heroes.

TNG Season 1 and 2 had some storytelling problems (and I think that Roddenberry himself created some issues and you just feel a fight behind the scenes about the show was going on in that it lurches back and forth a good bit and can't seem to decide how to use some of the characters), but I'd still rank them over season 5 which is, IMO the worst season so far on my re-watching (but even Season 5 has some good episodes).  I think the thing about TNG that helps it is a really, really good cast.  

to be fair, conflict is at the heart of any drama. once you fix the ideal, and you remove inter and intrapersonal  conflict, it becomes difficult to create new material which is compelling.  you have removed obvious channels of conflict. do a movie or a limited series with largely fixed characters who is as close to objective good as is possible? no problem. try and do that with a long running series in 2021 without it getting stale fast.

also, am suspecting cbs/paramount isn't necessarily to blame as is hard to imagine most studios being sold on a white bread kinda approach to trek storytelling in a post 1990s reality. and to be fair, cbs had multiple shows with idealized characters being swell every week for years. functional, dr. quinn medicine woman and touched by an angel was  spiritual successors to star trek in more ways than were ds9. both shows cbs and both released contemporaneous with ds9.

the notion of a genuine utopian society with a group o' objective good people doing good deeds on a weekly basis is a tough sell when such is s'posed to be a starting point as 'posed to the goal. 

am not seeing a problem with tos star trek and pre locutus tng storytelling, particular in a scifi movie or limited series which focuses more episodic. 

also, pale moonlight and visitor from ds9 is all-time trek favorites for us and am confident neither gets made by rodenberry... sure as hell the recent mentioned tng chain of command doesn't get made 'til after rodenberry is gone, though am suspecting amentep sees such as the moment the wheels o' the bus went flying off into the void. 

HA! Good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

21 hours ago, Keyrock said:

So, I heard the news of the new Star Trek series Strange New Worlds. As someone who loves Star Trek and loathes Nu Trek with the fiery passion of a thousand suns, I was weary. Still, they said all the right things: It will be hopeful and optimistic, and it will be episodic, rather than a serial. Also, it will feature Captain Christopher Pike. I couldn't stomach Discovery long enough to get to Pike, but by most accounts Anson Mount as Captain Pike was either the best thing about Discovery or the only good thing about Discovery, depending on who you ask. I began to feel a tiny spark of hope, something I have not felt about my beloved series in a long time. I decided to do a bit of digging (read: I went to Wikipedia) and I discovered the horrible truth:

12 hours ago, Lexx said:

Why do they allow Kurtzman to rape Star Trek so much. I don't understand this ... is ... is the problem actually us? Does everyone like the new Star Trek and it's just us few who hate it?

I think Kurtzman even said something like this: "Half of the fans are happy and I think that is great."

So don't ask me to explain.

[Amentep]

  

7 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

to be fair, conflict is at the heart of any drama. once you fix the ideal, and you remove inter and intrapersonal  conflict, it becomes difficult to create new material which is compelling.  you have removed obvious channels of conflict. do a movie or a limited series with largely fixed characters who is as close to objective good as is possible? no problem. try and do that with a long running series in 2021 without it getting stale fast.

also, am suspecting cbs/paramount isn't necessarily to blame as is hard to imagine most studios being sold on a white bread kinda approach to trek storytelling in a post 1990s reality. and to be fair, cbs had multiple shows with idealized characters being swell every week for years. functional, dr. quinn medicine woman and touched by an angel was  spiritual successors to star trek in more ways than were ds9. both shows cbs and both released contemporaneous with ds9.

the notion of a genuine utopian society with a group o' objective good people doing good deeds on a weekly basis is a tough sell when such is s'posed to be a starting point as 'posed to the goal. 

am not seeing a problem with tos star trek and pre locutus tng storytelling, particular in a scifi movie or limited series which focuses more episodic. 

also, pale moonlight and visitor from ds9 is all-time trek favorites for us and am confident neither gets made by rodenberry... sure as hell the recent mentioned tng chain of command doesn't get made 'til after rodenberry is gone, though am suspecting amentep sees such as the moment the wheels o' the bus went flying off into the void. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Thing is, I think you can have conflict (over differing interpretations of rules and philosophies) without getting into people just arguing back and forth each week.  I think the better TNG episodes manage it, as did the better TOS episodes.  But often what TNG does for drama isn't really good (IMO) particularly the family drama stuff.

I also think Roddenberry by the time TNG rolls around had his own issues (for one, he seemed to have doubled down on his sex obsession from the late 70s) so I get that there was problems with his own interpretation of his vision by that time.  I actually think Chain of Command works, though, because the issue that divides Riker and Jellico is ultimately philosophical (their idea of what leadership is and their view that the other is lacking in it) and not just a pissing match so the actors get to yell at one another.  When Jellico has to come and ask Riker for help, there's not bitter recrimination from Riker, they both recognize what has to be done even if they don't like each other.

[Gromnir]

25 minutes ago, Amentep said:

    When Jellico has to come and ask Riker for help, there's not bitter recrimination from Riker, they both recognize what has to be done even if they don't like each other.

hmmm. might wanna rewatch the part where riker savors jellico coming to him for help. has been years since we watched, but am recalling riker is pretty damned petty considering, as we mentioned earlier, it turns out jellico were right. now do something like that every week.

ah, the internet never forgets

while roddenberry is alive, the jellico and riker thing happens only if aliens is covert taking over the federation or something similar. and show actual torture? doubtful.

keep in mind the maquis/federation conflict is also in large part philosophical, and we is beat to death with the philosophy. the philosophy is just an excuse for the conflict with members o' same crew sniping at each other every week and the federation being shown as subject to corruption, mistake and conflict.

roddenberry dying were a sea change for trek. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps we did have something similar to jellico and riker happen while roddenberry were alive, but the guy playing the role o' jellico were a capitalist from the 20th century. season one "neutral zone" episode.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Gromnir

[Amentep]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

hmmm. might wanna rewatch the part where riker savors jellico coming to him for help. has been years since we watched, but am recalling riker is pretty damned petty considering, as we mentioned earlier, it turns out jellico were right. now do something like that every week.

ah, the internet never forgets

while roddenberry is alive, the jellico and riker thing happens only if aliens is covert taking over the federation or something similar. and show actual torture? doubtful.

keep in mind the maquis/federation conflict is also in large part philosophical, and we is beat to death with the philosophy. the philosophy is just an excuse for the conflict with members o' same crew sniping at each other every week and the federation being shown as subject to corruption, mistake and conflict.

roddenberry dying were a sea change for trek. 

HA! Good Fun!

i don't disagree that COC doesn't happen without Roddenberry; I just don't think it violates Roddenberry's take on the future to have Jellico-Riker disagree, even as strongly as they do.  I think that's the kind of conflict that fits the world (but definitely of a level Roddenberry would never have allowed).

While Jellico and Riker both tell each other their views one another, I think another show of the era would have had them yelling at each other, throwing things around and/or getting into one another's faces or something.  I give them credit that after they basically say they hate one another, they also reach the common ground necessary to do what is done.  Jellico asks, and Riker agrees because it is what needs to be done and they both recognize it.

I never got the Maquis philosophy, so it always just seemed like an excuse to have a conflict.  Might feel differently when I see more of them on-screen as much of the non-TOS shows I haven't seen since they first aired, so I got pretty dim memory of the Maquis to begin with.

[Sarex]

1 hour ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

DS9 is the most consistently good Trek, but Voyager had some neurotic writing and just ends up mediocre. That said TNG has a really boring start and Wesley so uhhh yeah. Though it will never not be funny to me how Geordi had less romantic relationships than an emotionless robot. 

Yeah, but I think Voyager was my first exposure to Star Trek so a lot could be overlooked, plus 7 of 9... I don't know, for years (more than a decade now) I wanted to give TNG another go, but I never did...

[Malcador]

Star Trek shows improve with the addition of beards.

[Keyrock]

8 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Yeah, but I think Voyager was my first exposure to Star Trek so a lot could be overlooked, plus 7 of 9... I don't know, for years (more than a decade now) I wanted to give TNG another go, but I never did...

I'm one of the very few red blooded men that didn't have a hard on for 7 of 9. Don't get me wrong, Jeri Ryan is a fine looking woman, but she doesn't do it for me, for whatever reason. On TNG I had the hots for Beverly Crusher, then later Ensign Ro, but my biggest Star Trek infatuation was with Jadzia Dax on DS9.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Keyrock

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

25 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Yeah, but I think Voyager was my first exposure to Star Trek so a lot could be overlooked, plus 7 of 9... I don't know, for years (more than a decade now) I wanted to give TNG another go, but I never did...

If you have time it's worth it, but there is a lot of bad to sit through before it gets good, and as @Amentep tabled, season 5 is a pretty big dip in quality.

[ShadySands]

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

Thing is, I think you can have conflict (over differing interpretations of rules and philosophies) without getting into people just arguing back and forth each week.  I think the better TNG episodes manage it, as did the better TOS episodes.  But often what TNG does for drama isn't really good (IMO) particularly the family drama stuff.

Fully agree but that's also more difficult to do. Seeing as the writers couldn't plot out Picard's 10 episodes ahead of time, I don't think that's a challenge they're up to.

[majestic]

45 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

If you have time it's worth it, but there is a lot of bad to sit through before it gets good, and as @Amentep tabled, season 5 is a pretty big dip in quality.

Zinda, his face black, his eyes red. Kadir beneath Mo Moteh.

 

[majestic]

The quote function cannot your table.

3 hours ago, Amentep said:

<@Amentep's table of

Spoiler

terribad

taste> 

Well... to quote something non-trek yet strangely fitting for this forum:

I'm sorry that you feel that way, old man.

edit:

Seriously though, in what universe is Code of Honor anything but an F-tier episode, or maybe an S-tier if you go for the absolute trashiest Trek-trash you could find?

edit 2:

I don't even disagree that Season 5 is the begin of the decline of TNG's average episode quality. But everything, even season seven, is ahead of one and two. Not even Sub Rosa is as bad as Code of Honor. Although it's really close. Really close to being the worst Trek episode of all time even. Yet, most of the episodes I'm really looking forward to when rewatching TNG come from seasons 4 and 5.

Edited July 26, 2021 by majestic