The all things Political Topic - When the sun Rises, the shadows must retreat Fleeing in fear from the Fires of dawn

[BruceVC]

32 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

biden saying mean things 'bout facebook don't count as a first amendment violation, and suggesting the proliferation o' misinformation regarding the vaccine on social media platforms is contributing to the deaths of americans is hardly a controversial position at this stage. 

whatever.

is amusing, but the only reason why facebook can play the role o' pontius pilate and claim it has no responsibility for that which is published using their resources is 'cause o' Congress and not the first amendment. Congress could, if it so desired, remove the immunity from litigation facebook enjoys regarding material third parties publish using their  platform and doing so would not violate the first amendment. however, that act by Congress would most certain severe undermine the free exchange o' ideas via the internet. 

biden is pointing out the obvious and letting facebook and other maintainers o' internet platforms decide what to do 'bout it. is not a free speech issue. is a balancing quandary for facebook and others, but is not freedom o' speech from any legal sense. how much liberty to post dangerous mistruths is ok? ain't the government deciding but facebook, so is no government censorship issue. is a question o' responsibility and facebook is clear motivated by mercenary concerns as 'posed to the well being o' the american people... which doesn't necessarily make their relative hands off policy wrong. facebook has not attracted new users for a few years and as such they is desperate to keep their current pigeons fat and satisfied. increase moderation and their birds will fly away to other venues. refusal to moderate more aggressive is based on facebook's bottom line as 'posed to some kinda sense o' civic duty, but so what? Congress were not wrong when they first granted groups such as facebook immunity from civil suits. increase the responsibility o' folks such as facebook (or obsidian maintain this message board) means the free flow o' ideas would be diminished to some uncertain but no doubt significant degree.

regardless, biden saying mean and true things 'bout facebook is not a free speech issue.

HA! Good Fun!

ps as we has said in the past, all liberties has a body count, whether you wanna admit it or not. 

 

 

Okay so its not a free speech issue. What do you personally think should be done about  people using SM platforms like FB to spread their own views on the virus and vaccines. Should FB ban them and or remove the content? 

[Guard Dog]

50 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Okay so its not a free speech issue. What do you personally think should be done about  people using SM platforms like FB to spread their own views on the virus and vaccines. Should FB ban them and or remove the content? 

I agree with Gromnir on this one. Facebook does not owe anyone anything. You are using their bandwidth on their servers for free. So you do it at their pleasure. They can kick anyone off at any time for any reason. They can edit or block posts at any time. Just like right here on this very forum. It’s actually kind of extraordinary that the way off topic forum even exists. It’s one of the most active boards on this website and it has nothing to do with obsidian, their games, or their business. That’s unusual in my experience. We are posting here on their site at their forbearance. They could kick you off just for saying you don’t like green eggs and ham. 
 

Personally speaking I have little use for Facebook other than business and of course to play chess for free. In terms of discussion and dissemination of news or current events I hear better conversations out in the hen house. Or here on WoT of course.

 

[Raithe]

[Guard Dog]

12 minutes ago, Raithe said:

Think so? How many jobs were created by those two companies?

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Okay so its not a free speech issue. What do you personally think should be done about  people using SM platforms like FB to spread their own views on the virus and vaccines. Should FB ban them and or remove the content? 

am thinking you are looking at this wrong.

often there is no good solution, and even if there is, all too often the precedent set today breaks things in unanticipated ways in the future.

from our pov, the right question is as follows: who do you want making those necessarily imperfect choices 'bout what should be allowed on an internet platform?

Gromnir and @Guard Dog do not trust the government with such regulation. gonna suggest bruce indulges a read Fahrenheit 451. get enough o' the right registered voters complaining 'bout the threat of antivaxers or muslims and all kinda limits may be designed to protect society from those threats. "enough" doesn't even need be a majority in the US system. 

do you trust facebook or individuals to make the right calls on such issues? if so, you are, from our pov, naïve to the point o' self crippling.

again, am recognizing there is no good or even best solution, but am much concerned what happens if we put the hard choices 'bout liberties up for a vote. let biden, corporations and consumers put pressure on facebook. if people are able to shame facebook into changing policies, how is that any different than civil rights groups putting pressure on coca cola during the 50s and 60s?  regardless, we don't trust US Presidents to consistent make the right call and those representatives o' our fickle democracy constitute the biggest threats to our liberties.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[BruceVC]

25 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

am thinking you are looking at this wrong.

often there is no good solution, and even if there is, all too often the precedent set today breaks things in unanticipated ways in the future.

from our pov, the right question is as follows: who do you want making those necessarily imperfect choices 'bout what should be allowed on an internet platform?

Gromnir and @Guard Dog do not trust the government with such regulation. gonna suggest bruce indulges a read Fahrenheit 451. get enough o' the right registered voters complaining 'bout the threat of antivaxers or muslims and all kinda limits may be designed to protect society from those threats. "enough" doesn't even need be a majority in the US system. 

do you trust facebook or individuals to make the right calls on such issues? if so, you are, from our pov, naïve to the point o' self crippling.

again, am recognizing there is no good or even best solution, but am much concerned what happens if we put the hard choices 'bout liberties up for a vote. let biden, corporations and consumers put pressure on facebook. if people are able to shame facebook into changing policies, how is that any different than civil rights groups putting pressure on coca cola during the 50s and 60s?  regardless, we don't trust US Presidents to consistent make the right call and those representatives o' our fickle democracy constitute the biggest threats to our liberties.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yes, I agree with much of what you say

I dont think FB should be forced to  decide on most content, outside of hate speech,  and especially what is fake news about the virus and what is not fake news. It puts them in an invidious position and I feel uncomfortable with this type of mandate deciding what is acceptable content from a IT company 

But then Biden shouldnt be accursing them of killing people either. Because they not killing anyone, its just a  way of communicating so the people saying these things need to called out by the White House....which they already are

So why scapegoat FB when it comes to the misinformation that is going  around the world around the virus ?

 

[Pidesco]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Think so? How many jobs were created by those two companies?

Not a lot, when taking into account both the average wages, and the revenue of said companies. 

[Guard Dog]

45 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Not a lot, when taking into account both the average wages, and the revenue of said companies. 

Think bigger. The companies themselves, Virgin and Blue Origin are not that big. Their vehicles were build under contract. Those contractors employ thousands. The individual systems were built by subcontractors. Again, thousands. The parts and components were manufactured by other companies. Tens of thousands of employees worked on these projects over the R&D, build, and now operation time.  

[Pidesco]

14 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Think bigger. The companies themselves, Virgin and Blue Origin are not that big. Their vehicles were build under contract. Those contractors employ thousands. The individual systems were built by subcontractors. Again, thousands. The parts and components were manufactured by other companies. Tens of thousands of employees worked on these projects over the R&D, build, and now operation time.  

All poorly paid. 

[Zoraptor]

They're probably paid decently. They're not Boeing, they have to pay decently for safety reasons rather than rely on regulatory capture.

[HoonDing]

It's less wealth tricking down, and more bread crumbs occasionally falling off the table.

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

 

But then Biden shouldnt be accursing them of killing people either. Because they not killing anyone, its just a  way of communicating so the people saying these things need to called out by the White House....which they already are

So why scapegoat FB when it comes to the misinformation that is going  around the world around the virus ?

 

it's hardly scapegoating. +99% of the people current being hospitalized and/or dying of covid in the US is unvaccinated. antivaxers, pre 2016, were limited to a segment o' the minority population and liberal women/mothers particular in a few geographical strongholds which tragic led to publicized measles outbreaks and the like. what changed? instead o' hippie moms, why is now white and male conservatives, who if you use a venn diagram has considerable overlap with those who believe the 2020 election were stolen, is now making up the bulk o' those espousing vaccine hesitancy? why did so many male conservatives sudden become vaccine hesitant when for years they thought immunization were fine and good?

at this time last year, people in the US were dying of covid. this year people are dying unnecessarily o' covid. +99% bruce.

in a few days, the rate o' vaccination in canada is gonna eclipse US numbers, in spite o' fact that today near anybody in the united states over a certain age and not immuno-suppressed is eligible to get a free covid vaccination. again, +99% o' those dying and/or facing hospitalization due to covid in the US is unvaccinated.

the misinformation is literal killing people, and the longer this continues, the chances o' variants increase which put everybody, even the vaccinated, at risk o' a repeat o' 2020.

am glad Gromnir don't have some kinda special authority to shutdown social media platform disinformation. we don't have responsibility so is easier for us to make observations 'bout long-term impact o' government interference with the internet. we don't have the spectres o' unnecessary dead weighing on our conscience.

not scapegoating. not even close.

HA! Good Fun! 

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Gromnir

[Hurlshort]

11 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Think so? How many jobs were created by those two companies?

I think both the graphic and this statement are the wrong way to look at the issue. We have enough food to feed the world. We have enough roofs to house the people. We also have the resources and the technology to send people to space. It's not like if we grounded these rockets, suddenly we would solve the first two problems.

The problems are too complex to solve with simple memes.  

[BruceVC]

39 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

I think both the graphic and this statement are the wrong way to look at the issue. We have enough food to feed the world. We have enYou ough roofs to house the people. We also have the resources and the technology to send people to space. It's not like if we grounded these rockets, suddenly we would solve the first two problems.

The problems are too complex to solve with simple memes.  

You right, their is enough food globally to feed the world and resources to give every person in the world a roof over the head. But their isnt one system of government that manages these resources and even in a wealthy country like the USA much of the resources only exist because of the private sector....not government.

But the worlds constant and worse examples of inequality are in failed states and or dictatorships, if we can fix that by  removing these types of governments it will go a long way to reducing global poverty and things like the immigration crisis that many countries grapple with. So unless the world can somehow move to a single government, which none of us want and its not  practical, we are always going to have abuse of resources and mismanagement in certain places in the world?

 

 

6 hours ago, HoonDing said:

It's less wealth tricking down, and more bread crumbs occasionally falling off the table.

Excellent observation as usual and I am so glad you have raised this point. And its always white people who suffer in these examples. Its a terrible reality to live in as a white person and I am glad you have noticed this. We need to pass more laws so white people aren't  discriminated against 

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

it's hardly scapegoating. +99% of the people current being hospitalized and/or dying of covid in the US is unvaccinated. antivaxers, pre 2016, were limited to a segment o' the minority population and liberal women/mothers particular in a few geographical strongholds which tragic led to publicized measles outbreaks and the like. what changed? instead o' hippie moms, why is now white and male conservatives, who if you use a venn diagram has considerable overlap with those who believe the 2020 election were stolen, is now making up the bulk o' those espousing vaccine hesitancy? why did so many male conservatives sudden become vaccine hesitant when for years they thought immunization were fine and good?

at this time last year, people in the US were dying of covid. this year people are dying unnecessarily o' covid. +99% bruce.

in a few days, the rate o' vaccination in canada is gonna eclipse US numbers, in spite o' fact that today near anybody in the united states over a certain age and not immuno-suppressed is eligible to get a free covid vaccination. again, +99% o' those dying and/or facing hospitalization due to covid in the US is unvaccinated.

the misinformation is literal killing people, and the longer this continues, the chances o' variants increase which put everybody, even the vaccinated, at risk o' a repeat o' 2020.

am glad Gromnir don't have some kinda special authority to shutdown social media platform disinformation. we don't have responsibility so is easier for us to make observations 'bout long-term impact o' government interference with the internet. we don't have the spectres o' unnecessary dead weighing on our conscience.

not scapegoating. not even close.

HA! Good Fun! 

 

You make some valid points and I agree that 99 % of people dying in the USA  due to Covid are unvaccinated. No one is disputing this and this gets raised and discussed extensively on CNN and their is no doubt that the hesitancy is caused by misinformation around the scientific and irrefutable nature of the virus and vaccines

But lets say you shutdown FB permanently, their would be other platforms that misinformation can and would be disseminated. So you see the conundrum, its not FB but the spread of misinformation

And even if you somehow shutdown all types of  social media people would utilize  other systems like cell phones or  newspapers  to  create and propagate fake news ....so would we then be accursing the broader media and the cell phone companies of " killing people " ?

Would you be fine with that ? Remember the concept of SM media fake news is akin to gossip, its been with us for all time and you are not going to stop people gossiping. 

[Gromnir]

5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

You make some valid points and I agree that 99 % of people dying in the USA  due to Covid are unvaccinated. No one is disputing this and this gets raised and discussed extensively on CNN and their is no doubt that the hesitancy is caused by misinformation around the scientific and irrefutable nature of the virus and vaccines

But lets say you shutdown FB permanently, their would be other platforms that misinformation can and would be disseminated. So you see the conundrum, its not FB but the spread of misinformation

And even if you somehow shutdown all types of  social media people would utilize  other systems like cell phones or  newspapers  to  create and propagate fake news ....so would we then be accursing the broader media and the cell phone companies of " killing people " ?

Would you be fine with that ? Remember the concept of SM media fake news is akin to gossip, its been with us for all time and you are not going to stop people gossiping. 

you are overstating. when coal gas ovens were no longer an option for committing suicide, the suicide rates in the US and UK dropped precipitous, and those rates has never returned to previous levels. assume removal o' a modality will resort in people moving on to the next most convenient option is a mistake. 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/563424-psaki-criticizes-loaded-and-inaccurate-vaccine-misinformation

before doocy made an arse o' himself assuming stuff into existence, an independent and not government study showed how a relative small number o' sources is producing the bulk o' the misinformation on social media. 'course the study ignored folks such as doocy. point is, the sources o' misinformation is not as ubiquitous as bruce suggests. is kinda shocking how much damage is being done by what amounts to a bit more than a double- handful o' sources.

but yeah, is not just a facebook thing (never suggested such, so strawman away on that one) which is part o' why am not in favor o' government regulation. fb "contributes" to the problem, and so does twitter and so does fox news and whichever conservative radio personalities has filled the rush void. where does the regulation with good intentions end? 

'course the bigger issue is it is too late to fix the problem by demanding truth. the people who believe the government conspiracy which is covid and vaccines is not gonna give up their stoopid if the government steps in and tomorrow silences facebook and twitter and tucker carlson when they offer manifest untrue info. the opposite from the intended result is likely as censorship is gonna be seen as validation that gd's they is really out to get conservatives. too late.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[Guard Dog]

Referring specifically to COVID-19 I don’t think “they” are out to “get” conservatives or anyone else. The problem with the pandemic and the response to it right from the get go is nobody really knew what to do. All of the advice we were getting from authority figures was conflicting. Wear a mask. Don’t wear a mask. Wear two masks. It came from a lab. No it came from people eating bats. No develop naturally and you are a racist if you think otherwise. It was asking too much for the Trump administration to have handled this better than they did. When you have no idea what you’re doing you just slip in to your default position which is “everything is fine nothing to see here move along“. On the other side the Democrats went the other way into their default position of full on police state. Shut down, lockdown, obey, obey, obey. Especially damning when so many of the  the Democrat governors, Congressman and others didn’t even pay lip service to their own restrictions. Right away that tells people that everything is bulls—t and it feeds the notion it’s all about grabbing power. 
 

human beings are selfish, greedy, grasping and stupid. Putting a handful of them into government and giving them power over the other human beings does not change that about them. And anyone who just expects the worst qualities of their fellow humans will seldom be disappointed. Those qualities have been on full display on both sides of the US political aisle throughout the pandemic. So one side locks everything down, shut down businesses, basically puts people on house arrest, and then goes to lavish parties and resorts, beaches where they have it to themselves, or like in Michigan they go fishing on the lake they ordered everyone off of. After that you have no credibility to come back and talk down your nose at people. Of course on the other side of the political divide we got an equally stupid and opposite reaction that the whole thing is a hoax the vaccines or some kind of mine control and you’re a tool if you wear a mask. 
 

The other problem was they were painting COVID-19 as though it were the black plague. Yes it was dangerous. Half a million people in the United States have died from it. But it also has a 99.8% survivability and is so severe that often times you have to take a test even find out you have it. they created a disconnect between what people are hearing  coming from the government and what they are seeing in their real lives.

you put all this together in a nation where people are already defiant of authority and mistrustful of the government just by their very nature and you get what we had the last two years. 
 

Biden is doing it again. It’s true he’s not talking about actually censoring social media. He’s asking them to do it for him. If half the country already thinks you’re a monster the worst thing you can do is become one. Or sound like one. I would just tell everyone not everything we read online is true. Caveat emptor. 

[Gromnir]

bs

the best advice, from the start, were voluntary social distancing, but when it became obvious americans (particular the obtuse, no compromise folks) were not willing to do so, masking and shutdowns became the alternatives. and yes, at the start, and in part 'cause the complete unnecessary shortage o' masks, we were indeed told it were pointless to wear a mask when asymptomatic spread was not understood. from start we were all told masks did almost zero to prevent a person from becoming infected with covid, and that observation has not changed. back in march o' 2020, wearing masks appeared kinda pointless for almost the entire population. unfortunate, lack o' social distancing by americans and new data 'bout asymptomatic spread changed the masking suggestions... as it should. when data and facts changed, so too did advice. just one example. the alt-right radio l00ns complaining 'bout conflicting mask info is just... bs.

am calling bs.

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

On the other side the Democrats went the other way into their default position of full on police state. Shut down, lockdown, obey, obey, obey.

dear lord. more hyperbolic bs. gd is doing his best to channel marjorie taylor greene.

whatever. hopeless.

not funny.

 

[Guard Dog]

57 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

bs

the best advice, from the start, were voluntary social distancing, but when it became obvious americans (particular the obtuse, no compromise folks) were not willing to do so, masking and shutdowns became the alternatives. and yes, at the start, and in part 'cause the complete unnecessary shortage o' masks, we were indeed told it were pointless to wear a mask when asymptomatic spread was not understood. from start we were all told masks did almost zero to prevent a person from becoming infected with covid, and that observation has not changed. back in march o' 2020, wearing masks appeared kinda pointless for almost the entire population. unfortunate, lack o' social distancing by americans and new data 'bout asymptomatic spread changed the masking suggestions... as it should. when data and facts changed, so too did advice. just one example. the alt-right radio l00ns complaining 'bout conflicting mask info is just... bs.

am calling bs.

dear lord. more hyperbolic bs. gd is doing his best to channel marjorie taylor greene.

whatever. hopeless.

not funny.

 

When a man gets arrested and written a citation for fishing by himself on private property what would you call it? When the state comes in and tells businesses thou shall not open and we don’t care if you go bankrupt or not what do you call it? As you well know there are limits to what the government in this country can tell you to do. And in my opinion at least they exceeded them. So yeah, a little bit of hyperbole for spice. But just a little.

The conflicting mask info was not BS. They didn’t know. SARS has been around for years but this particular version of it was new. Nobody knew anything about it. There’s nothing wrong with that and there’s nothing wrong with admitting as much. “Social distance, wear the mask we think this will help”. Fine that’s great. Give advice based on the information they have. That’s everything a government should do. 
 

Then they went too far. Shut down, lock down, oh you can’t pay your bills? F—k you. It’s for your own good. Way, way over the line. Fishing alone on private property? Can’t have that. Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going off to a posh dinner at a fancy restaurant that is only open for me. You tell people what needs to be done. Explain to them why that needed to be done. Social distancing and masks. Then you get out of their way and they do it or they don’t do it. If they don’t and they get sick will don’t come crying to us. It’s when they started enforcing this BS at gunpoint that you lost me.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

+600k f'ing dead in part  'cause no compromise nutters couldn't follow common sense social distancing guidelines.

did a few politicians who passed mask and social distancing mandates violate their own guidelines? yeah. technical most found ways to skirt actual violation. a govenor goes and has a group dinner in a county which allowed restaurants to remain open and have more than X number o' customers might technical not be a violation o' the state mandates the governor advocated for and passed, but it looked bad, which is why the liberal media blasted those guys for their hypocrisy. so what? is the individual hypocrisy o' a few politicians making so that the guidelines as a whole were more representative o' a police state? police state? serious? 

the only thing close to the fishing example you gave we found were where multiple people, not family members, were sharing the same boat and w/i a few feet of each other while fishing.  regardless, minor citations is not gonna be your best examples o' police state excess... unless it is part o' your insane no compromiser narrative which ignores the freaking fact we had a pandemic occur with hundreds o' thousands o' people dying unnecessarily 'cause one portion o' the citizenry were believing that common sense efforts to slow the spread o' a deadly disease was just the first step ... and next they would be coming for your guns.

some people were gonna be hurt financial by the pandemic. those damned police state democrats in washington kept trying to pass legislation which would allow states to close close businesses and subsidize those closed businesses for the short period o' time needed. look at places around the globe which actual followed shutdown guidelines. woulda' been brief and relative painless if not for our President, his loyalists in Congress and in state capitols, and the excessive number o' no compromise clowns who refused to recognize that those pictures o' freezer trucks and body bags outside US hospitals was not a media hoax.

+600k dead, and even birx has said beyond the first 100k the deaths were complete unnecessary. unfortunate, too many americans saw any effort to combat the pandemic as some kinda rough beast slouching towards bethlehem, each bit o' mask advice from the cdc a step towards authoritarianism by They and Them. add a President helping conflate the pandemic and gun ownership and we ended up with @Guard Dog, and thousands like him.

+600k dead 'cause some folks were obstinate to the point o' self harm and literal too stoopid to live. is many other countries who managed covid far better than the US and the reasons is two fold:

1) President Mc Coup

2) no compromise americans being no compromise americans

'cause next, they would be coming for your guns.

and oh so tragic predictable.

fools and madmen.

+600k dead.

ps if you agreed the mask advice were reasonable, you shouldn't have used as one o' your examples o' contradictory

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Gromnir

[Amentep]

6 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Social distancing and masks. Then you get out of their way and they do it or they don’t do it. If they don’t and they get sick will don’t come crying to us. It’s when they started enforcing this BS at gunpoint that you lost me.

But...the masks weren't to stop the wearer from getting sick,  it was to prevent the wearer from making everyone else sick. So not wearing a mask in public had a much bigger responsibility on the individual beyond their mask wearer's own health.

Do you think the individuals right to not wear a mask trumps the rights of those who come involuntarily into that person's presence to not get sick?

[Gfted1]

Do the masks only work in the direction of exhaled breath, so another person that is wearing a mask has no defense against inhaled breath?

[Gromnir]

am unsure what is the confusion. the point o' the masks is to reduce the amount o' expressed droplets and the distance those droplets ordinary travel when an infected person exhales.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Guard Dog]

Just saying here but I was not one of the ones who refused to follow directions. I wore the mask, stayed away from the other humans, the whole bit. Not that any of that was hard for me. I already dislike most folks and 6' was already way closer than I'd like to be. Once vaccines were open for the under 50 types I got my two shots. I did that because it was good advice and we do owe it to each other to do what we can to protect each other. But where you lose me it when it's "do it... or else". When advice becomes compulsory that's when I have a problem. 

And before anyone comes up with the drunk driving argument, stop right there. I am completely cool with men with guns kidnapping and locking drunk drivers in a cage because that is an activity that is VERY likely to result in harm to someone else. 

You can see people not wearing a mask and avoid the idiot. So writing people tickets, ordering private business to close, putting people on a sort of "house arrest" not cool. You give people advice. Tell them what they should do and then let them do it. Or not do it. You don't tell them "do as I say... or else". 

At the same time I am 100% cool with private business enforcing masks, distancing, whatever in their business place. Don't like it? There's the door. Where you lose me is the "or else" men with guns will come and take you away. 

@Amentep it's not that I think the idiots had a "right" not to wear a mask. It's that no one has the authority to compel them to.

And yes Trump made a huge mess of this. My comment earlier that we couldn't have expected a better response from his admin was not to suggest he did all he could do. It was a comment on the incompetence of the whole lot of them

 

@Gromnirthe fishing story happened in Michigan. It was noteworthy because within a week the Governor's husband tried to use her name to bully his way into launching his boat in a closed state park to do some fishing. I'm looking for it. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

2 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

 

@Amentep it's not that I think the idiots had a "right" not to wear a mask. It's that no one has the authority to compel them to.

And yes Trump made a huge mess of this. My comment earlier that we couldn't have expected a better response from his admin was not to suggest he did all he could do. It was a comment on the incompetence of the whole lot of them

 

@Gromnirthe fishing story happened in Michigan. It was noteworthy because within a week the Governor's husband tried to use her name to bully his way into launching his boat in a closed state park to do some fishing. I'm looking for it. 

the mi example is the one we mention. multiple people, not family members, on a boat.

and you is well aware the government has the authority to mandate mask wearing... thank goodness. if government couldn't mandate something so trivial, there would be little government could accomplish. you know very well state and local government has authority to mandate mask wearing, but you don't believe they should. huge difference, and your curious discrimination 'tween what government should do is just plain weird. you want government protecting your property, but protecting your life is a bridge too far.

and for those somehow still confused 'bout masks:

https://www.facebook.com/NOVApbs/videos/how-well-do-masks-work-to-stop-covid-19-schlieren-imaging-in-slow-motion/266023854703043/

that said, social distancing is best and a damp cloth/bandana pressed up against your face likely increases your chance o' getting covid.

HA! Good Fun!