The all things Political topic -In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie

[rjshae]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

Well corrupt people make more corrupt people.  Only solution in a case like that is to dispose of everyone and try to start anew.  Also helps as you make an example.

Power attracts the corruptible. That is still true even if you eliminate everybody and start over.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, rjshae said:

Power attracts the corruptible. That is still true even if you eliminate everybody and start over.

power corrupts, but powerlessness corrupts absolute. if you believe you have nothing to lose, what is there to stop you from doing the unthinkable? 

there are sociopaths and psychopaths who commit horrible crimes 'cause they are getting what they want and other people are just obstacles. rare.

a large % of people do bad things 'cause they believe they have run out of better options. governments necessarily have a monopoly on force, and the threat o' force discourages the powerless from taking action, but there is usual a breaking point.

edit:

 

am gonna go out on a limb and predict somebody on tucker carlson's staff gets fired, 'cause ed gavin clear weren't the guest tuck thought he were.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Gromnir

[Hurlshort]

Oof, Tucker Carlson is an amazing interviewer.

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

am gonna go out on a limb and predict somebody on tucker carlson's staff gets fired, 'cause ed gavin clear weren't the guest tuck thought he were.

That's putting it mildly

He probably wish they had recorded it first before airing it. Can't have common sense or worse, symptoms of brain activity on Fox.

[Gorth]

Why even pretend there is a working relationship?... right? So, the message from Australia to China is: You know what? **** you!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56840299

Australia has scrapped agreements tied to China's Belt and Road initiative, prompting anger from Beijing and adding further strain to tense relations between the countries.

The federal government used new powers to rip up two deals made between the state of Victoria and China.

Canberra said it was backing away from the agreements to protect Australia's national interest.

The Chinese embassy in Australia branded the move "provocative".

It said it the action by Canberra was "bound to bring further damage to bilateral relations, and will only end up hurting itself."

 

Hard not to guffaw loudly at that last bit. Those "relations" have been below the freezing point for a long time now.

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Malcador said:

Well corrupt people make more corrupt people.  Only solution in a case like that is to dispose of everyone and try to start anew.  Also helps as you make an example.

So you suggesting if their are 5 corrupt cops in a station of 30 cops you must shut down the whole station and fire everyone or defund everyone. That makes no sense ?

[Darkpriest]

10 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

These two are not compatible with each other, and is probably the biggest component of why nothing changes with our policing institution - if the good ones (and DAs and judges) held the bad ones accountable, the institution would have already necessarily reformed simply as a result of that. Alas, we are where we are today for a reason.

Perhaps it has something to do in terms of general triats of a person, where in some cases it's good to have such and in other it's not. 

You need to remember that those "soft-hearted" ones, usually are risk averse and can act too slow or inadequatly in case of dealing with dangerous individuals. The hard-headed ones are more likely to act in higher risk situations and will not be afraid to use overwhelimg force when dealing with real voilence. 

If your life depended on it, would you rather have emotional people after liberal arts course who will try to talk out the attacker of his voilent actions, but will do nothing out of fear for repercusions, or testosterone oozing enforcement who know their gun work when woke up in the middle of the night and is willing to risk own health and wellbeing to protect you? 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

Why even pretend there is a working relationship?... right? So, the message from Australia to China is: You know what? **** you!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56840299

Australia has scrapped agreements tied to China's Belt and Road initiative, prompting anger from Beijing and adding further strain to tense relations between the countries.

The federal government used new powers to rip up two deals made between the state of Victoria and China.

Canberra said it was backing away from the agreements to protect Australia's national interest.

The Chinese embassy in Australia branded the move "provocative".

It said it the action by Canberra was "bound to bring further damage to bilateral relations, and will only end up hurting itself."

 

Hard not to guffaw loudly at that last bit. Those "relations" have been below the freezing point for a long time now.

Gorthfuscious since you live in Oz and have raised both real and perceived issues with the whole China\Australia geopolitical relationship what are you suggesting you would like to see going forward around this relationship

In the link you posted its says " China is Australia's largest trading partner and before the pandemic, its biggest source of overseas university students " so for example one reasonable change would be to not make China your largest trading partner, you need to diversify your exports and import market

But what is the general sentiment on the ground in Oz and what is your government doing both proactively and reasonably about its dependence on China around your economy?

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

So you suggesting if their are 5 corrupt cops in a station of 30 cops you must shut down the whole station and fire everyone or defund everyone. That makes no sense ?

Dude, that's 1/6 of the total. One should burn it with fire

I think what he had more in mind is changing the system and organization of police. To be honest the way police is "organized" in USA is bonkers. It wouldn't be called police by a standard western country. 

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Gorthfuscious since you live in Oz and have raised both real and perceived issues with the whole China\Australia geopolitical relationship what are you suggesting you would like to see going forward around this relationship

In the link you posted its says " China is Australia's largest trading partner and before the pandemic, its biggest source of overseas university students " so for example one reasonable change would be to not make China your largest trading partner, you need to diversify your exports and import market

But what is the general sentiment on the ground in Oz and what is your government doing both proactively and reasonably about its dependence on China around your economy?

I can't really speak for other Australians, only myself (and I don't consider myself a "real" Australian). I mentioned last year, that the one thing Trump did that deserved a pat on the back was finally pulling the plug in the flow of money from the US to China in a completely uneven trade relationship. I wish Australia had done that already years ago to be honest, but my broken record regarding the Liberal Party hear still spins endless around and around. The party's major donors all benefited a lot from selling ore and agricultural products to feed the Chinese industry, not anything the common Australian ever noticed of course, as the revenue ended up in the hands of a few families (non taxable of course.

I commented already on it when I first arrived here almost two decades ago, describing the country to my family back in Denmark in the early 200's... "the Australians are like stupid!!!" They just dig the stuff up from the ground and ship wholesale to China, who in turn does all the value adding, processing and build up technological know how, infrastructure and a skilled workforce, leaving Australia with the little profit and in places some hefty clean up bills, still trying to dig something useful up from the ground long after the rest of the world has moved on.

As for education, yeah, a sad chapter. Rich Asian parents mostly, sending their kids to Australia. It made up the fourth largest export industry, selling university education (which most Australians can't afford to get by the way).

But recent changes in trade relations has forced the Morrison government to rethink their relationship with China. Universities, because of the pandemic, has to get used to sell education to Australians and trade with China is down 40% the last year. Not Covid related, but because somebody sort of mentioned that the KZ camps where Uighur slaves are working the cotton fields for the textile export is not really nice, a thing the government in Beijing was very offended by and promptly slapped billions of dollars of tariffs on Australian export goods. Since most people can see this is heading for nothing good, the exporters have made up the slack in large part now, mostly by selling it to Europe and other Asian countries. A bit less profitable, but a much more stable relationship than trying to placate the big bully in the schoolyard.

As for what I would wish for? Cut any and all ties to China and dust off old alliances, because I China's ambitions are both political, territorial and global. Check the second half of the speech I slightly edited and posted above. The speech that was given just before the annexation of the Sudetenland, occupation of Czechoslovakia and invasion of Poland.

 

Edit: The customer base for the universities were mostly Chinese, but also a large Indian contingent. When **** hit the fan with the crackdown in Hong Kong, students siding with Hong Kong against Beijing got to feel exactly how long Xi's arm and influence is and police could do very little to stop it (as some students were in my opinion obvious "plants" by Beijing, there to keep an eye on and beat the living daylight out of fellow students who didn't toe the party line)

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I can't really speak for other Australians, only myself (and I don't consider myself a "real" Australian). I mentioned last year, that the one thing Trump did that deserved a pat on the back was finally pulling the plug in the flow of money from the US to China in a completely uneven trade relationship. I wish Australia had done that already years ago to be honest, but my broken record regarding the Liberal Party hear still spins endless around and around. The party's major donors all benefited a lot from selling ore and agricultural products to feed the Chinese industry, not anything the common Australian ever noticed of course, as the revenue ended up in the hands of a few families (non taxable of course.

I commented already on it when I first arrived here almost two decades ago, describing the country to my family back in Denmark in the early 200's... "the Australians are like stupid!!!" They just dig the stuff up from the ground and ship wholesale to China, who in turn does all the value adding, processing and build up technological know how, infrastructure and a skilled workforce, leaving Australia with the little profit and in places some hefty clean up bills, still trying to dig something useful up from the ground long after the rest of the world has moved on.

As for education, yeah, a sad chapter. Rich Asian parents mostly, sending their kids to Australia. It made up the fourth largest export industry, selling university education (which most Australians can't afford to get by the way).

But recent changes in trade relations has forced the Morrison government to rethink their relationship with China. Universities, because of the pandemic, has to get used to sell education to Australians and trade with China is down 40% the last year. Not Covid related, but because somebody sort of mentioned that the KZ camps where Uighur slaves are working the cotton fields for the textile export is not really nice, a thing the government in Beijing was very offended by and promptly slapped billions of dollars of tariffs on Australian export goods. Since most people can see this is heading for nothing good, the exporters have made up the slack in large part now, mostly by selling it to Europe and other Asian countries. A bit less profitable, but a much more stable relationship than trying to placate the big bully in the schoolyard.

As for what I would wish for? Cut any and all ties to China and dust off old alliances, because I China's ambitions are both political, territorial and global. Check the second half of the speech I slightly edited and posted above. The speech that was given just before the annexation of the Sudetenland, occupation of Czechoslovakia and invasion of Poland.

This is a good post and I appreciate the fact you have done research and you aware of the economic precedent like the sales of commodities to China as its a easy market to sell to due to demand. We do the same in SA

The last paragraph would be my suggestion and it can happen. It just requires both private sector support and political will. But end of the day the less dependent Australia is on the economic relationship with China the better for making political decisions that are in the best interests of Australian citizens and not being impacted by Chinese anger and possible Chinese trade embargos

 

 

[Gorth]

14 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

This is a good post and I appreciate the fact you have done research and you aware of the economic precedent like the sales of commodities to China as its a easy market to sell to due to demand. We do the same in SA

The last paragraph would be my suggestion and it can happen. It just requires both private sector support and political will. But end of the day the less dependent Australia is on the economic relationship with China the better for making political decisions that are in the best interests of Australian citizens and not being impacted by Chinese anger and possible Chinese trade embargos

Australia's situation strategically (warning, somewhat long read)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-21/us-china-preparing-war-drumbeats-conflict-australia-crosshairs/13260084

When Mao Zedong's People's Volunteer Army turned back the US Eighth Army in December 1950, it inflicted what is still known today as the longest retreat in American military history.

The battle of Ch'ongch'on has taken on even more significance as the drum beat sounds louder of another conflict between China and the US.

Last year, at the 70th anniversary of China's triumph, Xi Jinping warned the Chinese people "the road ahead will not be smooth". He called on people to revive the spirit of the Korean War, to "speak to invaders in the language they know … to use war to prevent war".

[Elerond]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

So you suggesting if their are 5 corrupt cops in a station of 30 cops you must shut down the whole station and fire everyone or defund everyone. That makes no sense ?

"There is no place for the weak-willed or hesitant. Only by firm action and resolute faith will mankind survive. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small."
— Liber Doctrina Ordo Hereticus, Chapter XXVIII, "Exterminatus

If Warhammer 40k has taught us anything it is that corruption is worst of all the crimes and you can't go overboard when you try to prevent it

 "Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live."
— Exterminatus Extremis

[BruceVC]

22 minutes ago, Elerond said:

"There is no place for the weak-willed or hesitant. Only by firm action and resolute faith will mankind survive. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small."
— Liber Doctrina Ordo Hereticus, Chapter XXVIII, "Exterminatus

If Warhammer 40k has taught us anything it is that corruption is worst of all the crimes and you can't go overboard when you try to prevent it

 "Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live."
— Exterminatus Extremis

Some clever quotes their, I like them 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Australia's situation strategically (warning, somewhat long read)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-21/us-china-preparing-war-drumbeats-conflict-australia-crosshairs/13260084

When Mao Zedong's People's Volunteer Army turned back the US Eighth Army in December 1950, it inflicted what is still known today as the longest retreat in American military history.

The battle of Ch'ongch'on has taken on even more significance as the drum beat sounds louder of another conflict between China and the US.

Last year, at the 70th anniversary of China's triumph, Xi Jinping warned the Chinese people "the road ahead will not be smooth". He called on people to revive the spirit of the Korean War, to "speak to invaders in the language they know … to use war to prevent war".

Thats a good read, a little negative around war being inevitable as that is something I definitely dont believe due to mutually assured destruction by each side having nukes. As I keep saying  Red China, the USSR, the USA, the EU and its allies like Australia didnt go to war officially  in a traditional sense during the 45 years of the Cold War when they really disliked each other so its not going to happen now. And its  a good thing Oz has chosen the USA over China, its always good to be on the winning side 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

But yes trade wars, state sponsored cyber-warfare , sanctions and new economic relationships is the best way forward to deal with episodes of recalcitrance and unwarranted aggression from the likes of  China and Russia. And of course you always must be prepared to discuss and engage on issues and compromise on some geopolitical developments  as we want all countries to be a productive and legitimate member of the global community 

[BruceVC]

https://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-makhia-bryant-holding-204126487.html

I am still concerned with the standard response   that often when an African American is killed by the police it automatically leads to people protesting and BLM activism and an assumption " the Police acted unlawfully and murdered someone "

This story is an example of this overreaction and this incident occurred the same day as the verdict around George Floyd. Is this view that the police are always at fault not a real  concern to other people ?

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

https://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-makhia-bryant-holding-204126487.html

I am still concerned with the standard response   that often when an African American is killed by the police it automatically leads to people protesting and BLM activism and an assumption " the Police acted unlawfully and murdered someone "

This story is an example of this overreaction and this incident occurred the same day as the verdict around George Floyd. Is this view that the police are always at fault not a real  concern to other people ?

Considering how polarized US society appears to be (seen from the outside), I wouldn't be surprised if one half of the population believes the police is always at fault and the other half believes they are never at fault. Dissenting voices offering middle ground like, they are sometimes at fault, being drowned out by the agitated masses.

[BruceVC]

17 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Considering how polarized US society appears to be (seen from the outside), I wouldn't be surprised if one half of the population believes the police is always at fault and the other half believes they are never at fault. Dissenting voices offering middle ground like, they are sometimes at fault, being drowned out by the agitated masses.

I tend to agree but when people immediately take to the streets after any shooting, irrespective of the validity of the shooting,  you often seen violence and looting

So I have no issue with people peacefully protesting about any issue but this knee-jerk type of " immediate protesting " is often not peaceful and its not called out and condemned enough by liberals and very few people on the Democrat side seemed concerned

This lack of consistency around how people publicly respond was one of the reasons we saw the rise of Trump and still gets raised both fairly and unfairly in commentary nowadays. And I am sure we all agree we dont want another Trump

Australia doesnt seem to have this issue? I see this in USA, SA and the UK mostly  

[Gorth]

13 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I tend to agree but when people immediately take to the streets after any shooting, irrespective of the validity of the shooting,  you often seen violence and looting

So I have no issue with people peacefully protesting about any issue but this knee-jerk type of " immediate protesting " is often not peaceful and its not called out and condemned enough by liberals and very few people on the Democrat side seemed concerned

This lack of consistency around how people publicly respond was one of the reasons we saw the rise of Trump and still gets raised both fairly and unfairly in commentary nowadays. And I am sure we all agree we dont want another Trump

Australia doesnt seem to have this issue? I see this in USA, SA and the UK mostly  

I think the bigger the economic inequality and the more poverty you have, the more you're likely to have a population that is growing increasingly frustrated (and violent). Add to that living in permanent fear. Fear of your neighbour, fear of cops, fear of losing your job, fear of health issues (and unpayable medical bills) etc.  See the state of mind thread for the links, 40% of the US population is estimated to live with anxiety issues. It takes very little pretext to make the lid blow off. One charismatic, well spoken individual can quickly gather a following if directing that fear against something or someone.

Edit: from Gorth's "The Demagogue 101"

 

[Malcador]

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

So you suggesting if their are 5 corrupt cops in a station of 30 cops you must shut down the whole station and fire everyone or defund everyone. That makes no sense ?

5 may be proven to be corrupt, a lot more will actually be so. Point was it is very infectious, and subtle.

No corruption too small, no sacrifice too great

Edited April 22, 2021 by Malcador

[Guard Dog]

10 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

Oof, Tucker Carlson is an amazing interviewer.

Who the hell is that guy? He was rude as hell to his guest. I have to say though training police as EMTs seems like a pretty good idea and well worth the investment.

[Gfted1]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

I tend to agree but when people immediately take to the streets after any shooting, irrespective of the validity of the shooting,  you often seen violence and looting

So I have no issue with people peacefully protesting about any issue but this knee-jerk type of " immediate protesting " is often not peaceful and its not called out and condemned enough by liberals and very few people on the Democrat side seemed concerned

Its the times we live in. Also see the state of mind thread for a clear examples of how people consume their "facts" via social media posts that confirm their bias, and then regurgitate them as facts around the world. If thats as far as a person will research, then you cant expect much. Mobs gonna mob. 

[BruceVC]

22 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Who the hell is that guy? He was rude as hell to his guest. I have to say though training police as EMTs seems like a pretty good idea and well worth the investment.

I do think sometimes Carlson raises debatable points but he was way out of line in this interview, he clearly only wanted to hear one thing which was basically " the verdict was unfair and Chauvin wasnt really at fault as he was just doing his job under difficult circumstances  " which is not accurate at all 

And I agree, police understanding basic EMT training makes sense in all our countries 

[Gromnir]

am suspecting the rationale for not having cop emts is that 'tween paramedics and fire departments, those folks is no further away from a 911 dispatcher than would be a cop emt. nevertheless, we wouldn't be surprised to learn that cops were far more willing to call in cop emts for help if such were available. is an idea at least worth considering.

am also recognizing that law enforcement in general (and please recall there is no "in general" US law enforcement. each state and local county is gonna do different)  should place a greater emphasis on their first aid training o' all street level personnel, but doing so costs money and requires time and...

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

28 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Who the hell is that guy? He was rude as hell to his guest. I have to say though training police as EMTs seems like a pretty good idea and well worth the investment.

He's best known for having Jon Stewart smack him around on TV for a bit