Alternative effect for "Brilliant"

[Powerotti]

Play stupid games - win stupid prizes

Let me repeat myself

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

3 hours ago, Powerotti said:

@"debate"above - too bad, that it's apparently not feasible to include any way of regenerating in separate file, for those who like it

Was that irony or is it indeed not feasible?

 

3 hours ago, Powerotti said:

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Was that irony or is it indeed not feasible?

Not sure. Was it? 

Search carefully, the answer is smiling to you

[Elric Galad]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

a) unchanged balance in the normal game where you play a full party and do rel. short fights and

I don't think that even a slight regen would leave the balance unchanged. You'll get ressources back even in mid-difficulty battle, 2-3 point isn't negigeable.
What I mean is it has a "cost" in term of balance. The question is : is the benefit better than the cost ?
That is the reason why I added it to Single Classes that didn't have it : because they needed these 2-3 points anyway. 

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

b) that in long fights and/or solo runs and/or late content like the DLCs SSS and FS those classes would have less of a disadvantange - ergo better balance

About Solo runs, I tend to agree with Phenomenum : The game hasn't to be balanced for "Solo" (or even TB), because the initial design hasn't been made for it.
More specifically, what I mean is that it shouldn't be the goal of Community Patch (but that's up to them) or Balance Polishing Mod.
I think it is too difficult to balance simultanneously for every styles of plays. "Balance it too much" for Solo and you loose Party synergy and specialization. 

That said, another Mod dedicated to make Solo runs more viable with all classes would be great.

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

and also

c) that they won't cost an ability point and don't even need a separate talent - so nobody needs to feel forced to pick it,

But everybody feels forced to use it or feels suboptimal because it becomes a key feature of the class.
(having to pick the talent has drawbacks too. I don't feel particularly satisfied with my modded SC Rogue and Ranger talent, especially because forced Tier IX is meh).

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

no new ability icon is needed 

But if it was, would you do it  ?

What I'm leaning to address is a possibility to replace Ancestor's Memory for party design.
And it seems that Creating a Potion could be a popular part of the answer.

[Boeroer]

@Powerotti: Don't really understand what you are trying to say - I mean other than that this debate is unnecessary because the resource generation could be put into a separate file or even mod.

That's true, but that's not really what I was up to. I don't insist on putting this into anything. I merely wanted to answer to MaxQuest|s initial idea(s) and throw out additional ideas and discuss whether they are good, bad or whatever. 

Let me sum up what happened:

I made a separate thread asking about a sort of anti-confusion and if it might be a good effect for brilliant. I did so because I didn't want to convolute the dedicated CP or @Elric Galad's Polishing Mod threads but only wanted so ask for ideas and opinions on this.

After that Eric asked what our general problems with Brilliant are and then we discussed that.

Then @MaxQuestsaid that if all classes could regenerate some resources then maybe Brilliant might lose a bit of appeal and maybe then it wouldn't need that much nerfing anymore (at least that's my interpretation, feel free to correct me). So I agreed (because I had discussed this earlier in another thread already) and I - among others - put out some ideas about the how.

I wasn't the initiator of this side topic nor did I say something like "this has to be pit into CP" or anything like that - I was only throwing out ideas like anybody else.

For that, I got bawled out by @Phenomenum in my own thread - that I opened to keep the threads discussions about Community Patch/Balance Polishing Mod clean. So... why? I wasn't even the one who started this. If there's problems with my ideas then fine, show them to me.

But apparently I hurt some feelings when I jumped on MaxQuest's train. It's obvious that Phenomenon doesn't like the idea, that's fine. But since I didn't/won't pressure him to use it - what's the fuzz? I can't see why one would get so confrontative about some stuff that I or others brainstorm in a mostly well-mannered way in my own thread.

 

Anyway: I appreciate mentioning the potential problems with drug/trinket use. That's helpful and constructive. 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

  

10 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

What points? That you can't win Megabosses with every class solo and that's that's why you need resources regen?

Maybe I'm missing a point here somewhere but...

You ALREADY have perma brilliant for every class in the game via strand of favour cheese.

So @Boeroer's intention is not to make those classes better for solo, we're trying to make those classes still viable IF a mod would nerf brilliant or , in my opinion more importantly, duration extension.

One of the suggestions was to stop resource regen after the initial 6 seconds, which is pretty solid.

After that change even for a party megabosses would be a lot harder, unless you have all chanter party or abuse all the bugs exempt brilliant.

(just strand of favour is  a big issue on its own ofc and so is sot/wod)

[Bosmer]

15 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

But everybody feels forced to use it or feels suboptimal because it becomes a key feature of the class.

I feel @Boeroer's idea (or MaxQuest's) was to implement this tier-0 passive that fits quite naturally into the specific class. This way players wouldn't feel forced to use it, but the new resource points would, slowly but steadily, come in not fully depending on the playstyle or build.

 

Regarding the balance discussion I tend to side with Boeroer. Making some classes more soloable and making some classes more viable for long bossfights are at its core the same challenge: After 30 seconds of fighting some classes don't have _anything_ to do, without brilliant. So its more about bringing these classes on par (not completely of course) with resource regenerating subclasses/classes.

 

Edit: For the moment I feel like the drug / consumable idea might be the easiest way to go.. however the effect of the drug (e.g.) should be balanced around the effect of other drugs... intuitively I think that simply providing (vanilla)brilliant might be too strong. And it shouldn't scale with alchemy, since that would make this skill too powerful.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Bosmer
Forgot.

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Bosmer said:

I feel @Boeroer's idea (or MaxQuest's) was to implement this tier-0 passive that fits quite naturally into the specific class. This way players wouldn't feel forced to use it, but the new resource points would, slowly but steadily, come in not fully depending on the playstyle or build.

What you're asking is basically a regeneration rate with fluff.
The regeneration rate is the target and the fluff is about making a mechanics designed to provide performance around this target without consequences on the class gameplay.

Easier said than done, I would say, especially for 5 classes (let say Monk has his ways) and to be robust vs all focused exploit, etc...
And what about casters ?

Quote

Regarding the balance discussion I tend to side with Boeroer. Making some classes more soloable and more viable for long bossfights are at its core the same challenge: After 30 seconds of fighting some classes don't have _anything_ to do, without brilliant. So its more about bringing these classes on par (not completely of course) with resource regenerating subclasses/classes.

Providing another class/subclass a similar effect than Ancestor's Memory is easier IMHO. It's a solution for long fight, but not solo.

Quote

Edit: For the moment I feel like the drug / consumable idea might be the easiest way to go.. however the effect of the drug (e.g.) should be balanced around the effect of other drugs... intuitively I think that simply providing (vanilla)brilliant might be too strong. And it shouldn't scale with alchemy, since that would make this skill too powerful.

Yup. And this is simple solution for Solo, also very much in line with solo gameplay which is quite based on Consumables anyway.

[Boeroer]

@Bosmerexcatly my thoughts/intentions. @Raven Darkholme, too.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

I don't think that even a slight regen would leave the balance unchanged. You'll get ressources back even in mid-difficulty battle, 2-3 point isn't negigeable.

Yes, that would be bad. That is what I am trying to prevent though. Keep in mind that my examples are just that. I would want a form of regeneration that has almost no impact in the early game and also not in short fights. I think the Fighter example is a rel. good one since conversions do not happen that much in the early game because you do not have that many sources of conversion yet and in short fights they do not happen a lot anyways. Of course the numbers might need serious changes and also it might be that the potential to exploit this is big, but that is where constructive citicism would be helpful.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

About Solo runs, I tend to agree with Phenomenum : The game hasn't to be balanced for "Solo" (or even TB), because the initial design hasn't been made for it.

But it is not only the solo runs where some of those fixed/resource classes suffer but also the late game DLCs where fights can be so long that your Ranger, Fighter etc. end up autoattacking only. Megabosses, too. It is not fun / and my goal would be to make the game more fun without throwing off the balance. If that is possible. So that is why I participate in the discussion. To find out what works, what not and to give input. Not to win an argument.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

I think it is too difficult to balance simultanneously for every styles of plays. "Balance it too much" for Solo and you loose Party synergy and specialization.

In this special case I do not think so. You would need to find a sweet spot where resource generation does not happen much in the usual encounters but helps to keep things interesting in long encounters. It does no matter why the encounter is taking so long, be it because it is solo or because the enemies are to many and so tough. So the bottom line would be

little resource generation in long fights, almost none in normal fights.

 

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

But everybody feels forced to use it or feels suboptimal because it becomes a key feature of the class.

That might be. I hoped the mechanic would be such that it is just not worth it to trying to exploit it. It should feel like nice to have. Maybe that is not possible, I do not know.

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

But if it was, would you do it  ?

 

Sure.

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Yup. And this is simple solution for Solo, also very much in line with solo gameplay which is quite based on Consumables anyway.

I agree. I think a potion (let me call it Brilliant in a bottle, heh) is pretty neat so far. Easy to do, one has rel. good control over the WHEN and WHERE it can be achieved so it would not touch the earlier parts of the game, enough drawback if it is difficult and/or expensive enough to buy or craft. Also easy to separate from other mods because no progression tables an what have you. But hey, would it appear when you use the belt that spawns potions? Better not...

 

I will set up a new OS now and since I have some special hardware I might be offline for the rest of the day, at least with my desktop machine. Cheers!

Edited March 2, 2021 by Boeroer

[Bosmer]

14 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

What you're asking is basically a regeneration rate with fluff.
The regeneration rate is the target and the fluff is about making a mechanics designed to provide performance around this target without consequences on the class gameplay.

Yes, that's right   now that I think of it.. what would speak against a (slow) regeneration rate (for all non-casters atm) that starts after xx seconds in the encounter? Or starts when only remaining with xx resources in encounter? Or maybe replacing "empowering yourself" (I don't know what it's called) to give you a steady, slow resource-regeneration instead of instant-resources... 

At this point I'm just brainstroming, obviously, but maybe it might be fruitful to start the concept from the simplest/cleanest implementation possible (which might be just using consumables or one tier-0 passive for all) and than move into more complex mechanics.. but you guys are the experts here

[Elric Galad]

2 hours ago, Bosmer said:

Yes, that's right   now that I think of it.. what would speak against a (slow) regeneration rate (for all non-casters atm) that starts after xx seconds in the encounter? Or starts when only remaining with xx resources in encounter? Or maybe replacing "empowering yourself" (I don't know what it's called) to give you a steady, slow resource-regeneration instead of instant-resources... 

Technically impossible, it's hard-coded.
What is possible is an effect that would start after Empowering an ability. But since I've already tweaked post-Empower effects a lot, I fear it would favor a bit too much early Empower.

Still a decent option to keep in mind.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

What I'm leaning to address is a possibility to replace Ancestor's Memory for party design.

Ok, so a few brainstorming ideas :

Tier VIII Paladin Passive : Inspiring Blows : x% chance of restoring 1 ressource to party on melee crit.

Fury Shaper : add a x% chance of restoring 1 ressource on melee Crit with Blood Ward (since it's quite expensive at 3 rages, I think a buff wouldn't be bad). Basically a life + mana steal.
Anyway I think I'm going to set Fury Shaper penalty to -1PL for something like 180s instead of until end of combat.

Add somewhere in the priest ability tree : Infinite cast ability called "Prayer" : x% chance of restoring 1 ressource on OTHER ally without another effect. Cast time/recovery 6s/2s .
Somehow I feel priest may be in need of a defining ability.

 

Quote

And it seems that Creating a Potion could be a popular part of the answer.

This one seems validated. I can add it, unless another modder want to make a Stand Alone "Mana Potion" Mod.
Mmm maybe@Noqncould be interested ?
Maybe @Boeroercould create the icon

[Elric Galad]

Other question about the potion/drug :
Should it be a long duration/slow rate (something like +1 ressource every 30s for base 180s) which would limit max regeneration rate for a single character or shorter duration/fast rate (basically like 1 cast of Brilliant : +1 ressource every 6s for base 12s ) which would limit total max regeneration in 1 battle by virtue of consumable limit ?

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Maybe @Boeroercould create the icon

Sure. Any (p)references?

[Boeroer]

58 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Other question about the potion/drug :
Should it be a long duration/slow rate (something like +1 ressource every 30s for base 180s) which would limit max regeneration rate for a single character or shorter duration/fast rate (basically like 1 cast of Brilliant : +1 ressource every 6s for base 12s ) which would limit total max regeneration in 1 battle by virtue of consumable limit ?

Huh - good question. No idea. Maybe comparing that in the actual game would give a better idea what works well or feels good?

[Noqn]

19 hours ago, Powerotti said:

With trinkets there's funny thing - if multiclassed, one would have to choose which class needs resource more atm and juggle them (and grimoires, if multi with wizard).

This is indeed a good point. I also like @Boeroer's suggestion of a trinket with drawbacks. (Potion would be easier to design, balance and implement though.)

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

This one seems validated. I can add it, unless another modder want to make a Stand Alone "Mana Potion" Mod.
Mmm maybe@Noqncould be interested ?

I'm absolutely up for making this for the Balance Patch if you want to include it.

On the top of my head, how about requiring Luminous Adra Dust for the recipe? Rare and used for high-tier potions such as Luminous Adra Potion and Potion of Miraculous Healing.

[Powerotti]

5 minutes ago, Noqn said:

Potion would be easier to design, balance and implement though.

Yes, but the most boring one

Some kind of unique mechanic for every class would be more satysfying and lore friendly, but harder to develop, indeed. It could even introduce some new build types - which is good. Bonding it to item with negative effect (-PL or reduced resource pool, or something) could balance things a bit.

I really like the idea of fighter converting hit rolls to gain resources, seems very "disciplinary".

As for the other classes:

Bond - some kind of team maneuver with animal companion e.g chance for restoring resource if companion scores crit on enemy and the following hit roll is rangers crit (any kind - meele, ranged or spell).

Guile - active ability like seal or trap, which can be placed during combat but only 5m away of nearest foe. If you successfully lure enemy onto it - gain resouce.

Rage - chance when getting crit or when downgrade health tier (healthy->injured and so on), with cooldown to prevent abusing with friendly fire/HoT loop.

Mortification - spend 10 wounds to get resource and injury like effect for some time.

Zeal - no idea

 

[Elric Galad]

Ok, so for the design of the said Potion, for your reviews :

I would call it Potion of Enlightment

Duration : Infinite, as Potion of Ascension. This potion is meant to address super long fights and can be considered as a key part of combat mechanic design. I don't want it to be too sensitive to dispells and such. Also I don't want it to force characters into speccing in Alchemy. 
It still costs a consumable slot, which is valuable for boss fights since you can fill it with 5 Maelstorm or something like this.

Effect : +1 resource every 30s. A fraction of what a dedicated Cipher can provide to a party, and a fraction of what Infinite Ressource Classes do get but if everybody takes 1, it would provide about the benefit of 1 Cipher to a party spamming ancestor's memory (a dedicated Cipher may be able to do better) 
No +1 ressource on initial tick : this potion is not intended to enable chaining several Maelstorm in a row at the beginning of the fight. It is meant to address long fights. The first effect will happen 30s after the potion is taken.

Cost : expensive, very. Something at least in the range of 1.5k gold, but I wouldn't oppose a cost around 3-5k.

Vendors : Deck of Many Things, Treasure Trove, Splindle Man, Imp vendor at Forgotten Sanctum, Una. Not necessary all of them, but that's where I would expect such a product to be sold.

Receipe : Don't know, Reagent for sure (always 1 for potion). I would suggest Awakened Adra and a bunch of Vithrack Brains (these ones are super tedious to get early on). Could have been Luminous Adra but I wanted a bit of variety.
EDIT : If it is made with Vithrack Brains, I think the Splindle Man shall not sell it 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Proposed price : 3000 gold
Proposed receipe : 1 reagent, 1 awakened Adra, 2 Vithrack Brains and 1000 gold (worth less than purchase price, but still a lot, ratio comparable to other crafting receipe)

Edited March 3, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Bosmer]

Sounds great, I can't wait to see how it plays out! One concern could be that it might still be the vastly superior strategy to bring a cipher along and stack the brilliant effect with the potion. How do you think about this? Might there be a way to not let these effects stack?

[Elric Galad]

18 minutes ago, Bosmer said:

Sounds great, I can't wait to see how it plays out! One concern could be that it might still be the vastly superior strategy to bring a cipher along and stack the brilliant effect with the potion. How do you think about this? Might there be a way to not let these effects stack?

And bringing 2 ciphers would be even better  

The effect is at max 20% additional regen over a continuous application of brilliant for a single character. The non-stacking does not look too much necessary.

The point is to make the cipher not stricly necessary for party building (especially because your healer has finite ressources, or your wizard relies on a very specific spell).  The cipher is still incredible support. Cipher is an infinite ressource class, so it is meant to be top tier for "infinite duration fights" (I'm looking at you, Dorudugan).

Note that "self-infinite ressource classes" such as Tactician or Bloodmage also contributes to the party sustainability for such fights, but they can't prevent others from being dead weights.

Note that the balancing might cause reasonable power creeping. But there are mods to rise the difficulty anyway, and getting rid of major cheeses also make the game more difficult.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Cool. Speaking of cheese: maybe I missed it (might well be), but did we talk about the Strand of Favor/Cabalist's Gambeson/Ooblit cheese where you just equip/unequip/equip those items out of combat and buffs (which don't clear out of combat) will gain absurd durations via stacking (because the bonus duration doesn't get removed when unequipping - and the bonus uses the current duration as base)? Is it even fixable via mods?

[Elric Galad]

14 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Cool. Speaking of cheese: maybe I missed it (might well be), but did we talk about the Strand of Favor/Cabalist's Gambeson/Ooblit cheese where you just equip/unequip/equip those items out of combat and buffs (which don't clear out of combat) will gain absurd durations via stacking (because the bonus duration doesn't get removed when unequipping - and the bonus uses the current duration as base)? Is it even fixable via mods?

Sure, one just has to make all buff with duration clear out of combat

(makes drugs unplayable)

[Elric Galad]

50 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Cool. Speaking of cheese: maybe I missed it (might well be), but did we talk about the Strand of Favor/Cabalist's Gambeson/Ooblit cheese where you just equip/unequip/equip those items out of combat and buffs (which don't clear out of combat) will gain absurd durations via stacking (because the bonus duration doesn't get removed when unequipping - and the bonus uses the current duration as base)? Is it even fixable via mods?

Or maybe a more simple solution would be to only apply Strand of Favor/Cabalist's Gambeson/Ooblit bonus while in combat.

It sounds like a general interest change, quite close from a bugfix/glitch purge, so I think @MaxQuest and @Phenomenumcould be interested to include it in CP.

[Boeroer]

Here's a quick icon for the potion:

I put a sun on it because "enlighten"

By the way: the correct term would be Enlightenment.  

Edited March 3, 2021 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

54 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Here's a quick icon for the potion:

I put a sun on it because "enlighten"

By the way: the correct term would be Enlightenment.  

Great ! It looks awesome !

@Noqn, I think you should have all the inputs you need, but don't hesitate if you have questions or you disagree about something.
I think the best would be that you create your own mod on Nexus, then I will include the files in the next version of BPM, as we did for bashing shields.