rjshae Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 9 hours ago, BruceVC said: These pardons are just another example of abuse of power of the presidency from Trump Every President does this, and they often contain a few controversial picks. Steve Bannon, for example. Technically, he's just releasing his own swamp monsters back into the wild. What I would like to see is a way for Congress to override a pardon. 1 "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
BruceVC Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, rjshae said: Every President does this, and they often contain a few controversial picks. Steve Bannon, for example. Technically, he's just releasing his own swamp monsters back into the wild. What I would like to see is a way for Congress to override a pardon. Yes I was reading an article that highlighted how pardons are relatively common but are this number of pardons common and also the actual people being pardoned ? Some of then deserve to be incarcerated "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
ComradeYellow Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 15 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Nice that Pence is at the inauguration of Biden, its important that Republicans who want a political future in a normal and " healthy " US political environment recommit to the decorum and etiquette that use to exist before Trumpism The decorum matters, it always has and the Trump theater showed me what can happen when you decide it doesn't matter or is irrelevant Funny how people living outside America and don't understand the "mood on the ground" seem to believe that everything was peaches and roses before Trump showed up. Again, populist sentiment -be it right or left- is not going to go anywhere so long as the neoliberal establishment remains firm. Way too many contradictions now being exposed in this system. People like Trump are the symptoms. 1
Guest Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said: the neoliberal establishment I'm old enough to remember when the boogeyman was "the neoconservative establishment". It's cracking me up that many of the key figureheads are the same people. Too much to hope that someday people stop looking for cabals and learn how to have better conversations about policy?
Guard Dog Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 8 minutes ago, Achilles said: I'm old enough to remember when the boogeyman was "the neoconservative establishment". It's cracking me up that many of the key figureheads are the same people. Too much to hope that someday people stop looking for cabals and learn how to have better conversations about policy? Nothing sexy about that though. Far better to convince people that there is a secret Cabal of neocommunist pedophiles that want to turn all straight man gay and only a bombastic somewhat successful real estate magnate can save us all. Besides when you start talking about policy that’s when you find out most people basically agree with each other. Well most people until you run into someone like me. 1 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
BruceVC Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 25 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said: Funny how people living outside America and don't understand the "mood on the ground" seem to believe that everything was peaches and roses before Trump showed up. Again, populist sentiment -be it right or left- is not going to go anywhere so long as the neoliberal establishment remains firm. Way too many contradictions now being exposed in this system. People like Trump are the symptoms. Why do you assume I thought everything was perfect and civil before Trump showed up? I have been following the US political machinations since 9/11. There is no Democracy in the world where you dont have different degrees of dichotomy and tension between the various political parties. That is normal and to be expected But Trump added a new level of friction and created a different type of political divide in the USA, Trumpism was unique and we havent seen anything quite like it "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Gromnir Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, Achilles said: I'm old enough to remember when the boogeyman was "the neoconservative establishment". It's cracking me up that many of the key figureheads are the same people. Too much to hope that someday people stop looking for cabals and learn how to have better conversations about policy? had to check. were 1995 for the simpsons. heck, were only three or four years past that antivaxxers were primarily granola moms who stunk o' patchouli. all these changes is not good for old folks such as Gromnir. am still getting used to unleaded gasoline. we long for the good old days. tv should be three channels plus pbs. pay phones were a thing and a call would set you back a dime. am remembering when donald trump were most relevant as a joke gone-too-far in the frames o' doonesbury and bloom county. am not good with change, but last thing we want is a return to 1920. no going back, and that is a good thing, but is important to always keep in mind that road forward may represent regression as well as progress. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
BruceVC Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 What a nice, pleasant inauguration. I wasnt glued to the TV as I have been cooking but it went off very well, I liked the poet. She did a good job and the artists sang well Well done Biden and well done USA for this peaceful event, it was important for all Democracies around the world 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Guest Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Gromnir said: heck, were only three or four years past that antivaxxers were primarily granola moms who stunk o' patchouli. I seem to recall that the presence of a Whole Foods in your zip code was a good indicator of whether or not you were anti-vax
Gromnir Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Achilles said: I seem to recall that the presence of a Whole Foods in your zip code was a good indicator of whether or not you were anti-vax the speed with which the script were flipped is curious. now admitted, more than a few minority groups has trust issues with the government and vaccinations in particular. am not expecting reassurances from dr. fauci will change hearts and minds in all quarters. nevertheless, the vaccines cause autism and/or fascism group being aligned and even replaced with the bill gates is nanochipping your brain people is not something we saw coming pre 2015. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Zoraptor Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 2 hours ago, BruceVC said: Yes I was reading an article that highlighted how pardons are relatively common but are this number of pardons common and also the actual people being pardoned ? Some of then deserve to be incarcerated Trump ~250 Obama ~1700 (included 330 on his final day) BushGW ~300 (Scooter Libby probably most controversial) Clinton ~450 (probably the best Trump analogue for a list that generated a lot of accusations and controversy, Clinton's likely more) BushGHW ~75 Reagan ~400 Carter ~500 So Trump's use was pretty standard proportionately with Bush sr being a low use outlier and Obama and Carter (given his was a single term) being high use outliers. Of course, if you go by rumours there are hundreds of extra secret sealed pardons from Trump sitting around waiting until they are needed by his family and friends. 1
BruceVC Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 11 minutes ago, Zoraptor said: Trump ~250 Obama ~1700 (included 330 on his final day) BushGW ~300 (Scooter Libby probably most controversial) Clinton ~450 (probably the best Trump analogue for a list that generated a lot of accusations and controversy, Clinton's likely more) BushGHW ~75 Reagan ~400 Carter ~500 So Trump's use was pretty standard proportionately with Bush sr being a low use outlier and Obama and Carter (given his was a single term) being high use outliers. Of course, if you go by rumours there are hundreds of extra secret sealed pardons from Trump sitting around waiting until they are needed by his family and friends. That is interesting, I would never have thought Obama would have pardoned more people than Trump but to be honest I never followed any of Obamas pardons "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Amentep Posted January 20, 2021 Author Posted January 20, 2021 Note those numbers are pardons AND commutation of sentences. Also, when talking about Presidential pardons, typically the ~200,000 Vietnam draft dodgers are ignored from Carter. Others: Ford - 409 Nixon - 926 Johnson 1,187 Kennedy - 575 Eisenhower - 1,157 Truman - 2,044. FDR - 3,687 Hoover - 1,385 Coolidge - 1,545 Harding - 800 Wilson - 2,480 Taft - 758 T. Roosevelt - 981 McKinley - 918 Cleveland - see below B. Harrison - 813 Cleveland - 1,107 over both non-consecutive terms. Arthur - 337 Garfield - 0 Hayes - 893 Grant - 1,332 Johnson - 654 (however, like Carter he had some group pardons that put his total around 8,254) Lincoln - 343 Buchanan - 150 Pierce - 142 Fillmore - 170 Taylor - 38 Polk - 268 Tyler - 209 W. H. Harrison - 0 Van Buren - 168 Jackson - 368 J. Q. Adams - 183 Monroe - 419 Madison - 196 Jefferson - 119 J. Adams - 20 Washington - 16 2 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
Gfted1 Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 Dang, FDR...go home youre drunk. 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Gromnir Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 1 hour ago, BruceVC said: That is interesting, I would never have thought Obama would have pardoned more people than Trump but to be honest I never followed any of Obamas pardons its not the numbers. embraces same logic void silliness as pointing out obama executive orders by numbers w/o context. might as well use obama as an example. total pardons by obama during two terms were 212 btw. commutations (still a felon, but no longer need remain in prison) for obama were +1700 and most o' those went through the ordinary doj review process which takes 'bout two years. obama pardoned and commuted the sentences o' a whole lotta 3-strikes, non violent drug offenders who were doing years and even decades o' time in prison. serious, review the list. bill clinton is indeed offering the best parallels for trump, although again raw, numbers is misleading. bill unapologetically pardoned and commuted the sentences o' many political allies who spent money appealing lawyers with advertised access to the clintons and the clinton foundation to grant pardons. were a doj investigation following bill's presidency but no charges were filed. the marc rich bit were actual distracting from all the other political allies granted clemency by clinton. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Gromnir Posted January 20, 2021 Posted January 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Gfted1 said: Dang, FDR...go home youre drunk. is perhaps worth pointing out sans irony that the bulk o' fdr clemency were for violations o' prohibition era laws related to trafficking o' booze. HA! Good Fun! 2 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Gromnir Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 READ: Transcript of Amanda Gorman's inaugural poem am looking forward to her future work. God bless america. HA! Good Fun! ps stop keystone is gonna be divisive, particular with all the jobs the move will terminate. am personal believing this were the right move, but in spirit of full disclosure we observe we have family and friends 'mongst the protesters. 3 2 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) CNN already sucking up, Bloomberg alrrady covering that things look worse than we knew with Covid, due to Trump keeping people in the dark (no matter that the Fauci's team hasn't changed one bit) Corporates sucking up, like an Amazon open letter, "what can we do to help our dear beloved leader... tfu... I mean POTUS". Meanwhile vid inciting to voilence and more division sitting without any moderation at Twitter Mixing up regular voters with a really fringe element is very dangerous. Doesn't matter that there are also conservative people that are supporters of a different worldview. Just get to the camps and re-educate or gas all the wrong thinkers already. Suddenly, ANTIFA exists https://mobile.reuters.com/article/BigStory12/idUSKBN29Q0H9 Edited January 21, 2021 by Darkpriest 1
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, Darkpriest said: Suddenly, ANTIFA exists https://mobile.reuters.com/article/BigStory12/idUSKBN29Q0H9 Unbelievable the actions and anarchy we still see with Antifa, at least people were arrested so thats something All the US states need to come down on these types of violent protests and the more people are arrested the less we will see people thinking they can act with impunity "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Raithe Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 Joe Biden Took Just Hours To Reverse Some Of Trump's Most Controversial Orders (msn.com) Within hours of his inauguration on Wednesday, the new president set himself to work on reversing Donald Trump’s policies, telling reporters there was “no time to waste” in issuing the 17 executive orders, memorandums and directives. *** Among them: 1. Rejoining the Paris climate agreement 2. Halting construction of the US-Mexico border wall 3. Undoing the “Muslim ban” 4. Stopping the withdrawal from the WHO 5. Rescinding the 1776 Commission 6. Workplace protections for LGBTQ people 7. 100 days of mask-wearing 1 "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 36 minutes ago, Raithe said: Joe Biden Took Just Hours To Reverse Some Of Trump's Most Controversial Orders (msn.com) Next steps make US flag turn to rainbow colors Pay reparations for emotional damages due to US history Put wrong thinkers in the re-education camps. Etc. 1
BruceVC Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Darkpriest said: Next steps make US flag turn to rainbow colors Pay reparations for emotional damages due to US history Put wrong thinkers in the re-education camps. Etc. No, it wont be anything like that. He is reversing the unreasonable and counterproductive policies and decisions Trump made and even though Trump did some things right these things should be reversed "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Darkpriest Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, BruceVC said: No, it wont be anything like that. He is reversing the unreasonable and counterproductive policies and decisions Trump made and even though Trump did some things right these things should be reversed Depends on the world view, but I agree, some in my view were needless, like the blanket travel ban, or climate accords withdrawal. The 1776 theory though, I'd place in a garbage bin, next to flat earthers and Qans Edited January 21, 2021 by Darkpriest
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