Politics US Edition (2021!)

[Achilles]

18 minutes ago, rjshae said:

Easy access to student loans is what's wrong. It creates a positive feedback loop that endlessly inflates the cost of college. Maybe they need to provide free (or cheap) community college, then require high marks from there to attend a university?

Maybe. I spent several years in higher ed, but at a private university. State universities often operate on a mandate to serve the community, so limiting access based on performance would be counter to their mission.

Easy access to student loans isn't a bad thing if you want more people in college. A lot of the cost increases are coming from additional administrators and paying for "perks" that make colleges more attractive to "students" who shop for schools. State College A may have a better medical program, but State College B has a lazy river and 3 Chipotle's on campus. Those Chipotle's don't pay for themselves. The cost of said perks get passed on to the "consumer" (formerly "student") who is paying for all of this on loan anyway, so "charge it!"

I guess my argument would be that markets have seeped their way into the university system and corrupted it, but I'm sure that one or more libertarians will be on their way shortly to correct my thinking on the matter :)

In the meantime, if we want to make college more accessible, we should probably look to regulating the ratio of administrators to students at our public universities. If you want more tips on how to fix the private university system, I recommend The Tyranny of Merit by Michael Sandel.

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, Achilles said:

I think they are great also. My only reservation with promoting them as 1:1 alternative to college is that I'd hate to see us further institutionalize a separation into two classes, where one is exposed to "the liberal arts" and the other isn't. Perhaps the solution is to overhaul the high school system so that more of that takes place before young adults pick a career path.

like it or not, a university degree remains one of the better predictors o' eventual economic success. if jane goes to college, she will likely make more money, own a home and eventual send her own kids to college than if she did not complete a four-year degree. guidance counselors and teachers is not pushing kids to go to college on a whim or based on bad information... save for recognition far too many young adults is failing to complete their college degree goals.

however, economic security for those who get their polisci or art history degree is not a guarantee by any means. diplomas is not willy wonka golden tickets and is worth noting the national college dropout rate has steadily increased since the 70s, and has disproportionate increased for economic disadvantaged groups. 

our support for not-college has been voiced many times. am believing many persons who fail college could find success in vocational schools, but am thinking the choice to attend a vocational school after they fail college is unnecessarily burdensome to students, and not just economic burdensome. it would be our preference if states could find ways to make college success more likely as well as identifying students more suited for vocational school while removing the pointless stigma which may accompany the vocational school choice... though am conceding we do not feel comfortable with placing the burden on government to make people feel better 'bout their life choices. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Achilles]

1 minute ago, Gromnir said:

like it or not, a university degree remains one of the better predictors o' eventual economic success. if jane goes to college, she will likely make more money, own a home and eventual send her own kids to college than if she did not complete a four-year degree. guidance counselors and teachers is not pushing kids to go to college on a whim or based on bad information... save for recognition far too many young adults is failing to complete their college degree goals.

however, economic security for those who get their polisci or art history degree is not a guarantee by any means. diplomas is not willy wonka golden tickets and is worth noting the national college dropout rate has steadily increased since the 70s, and has disproportionate increased for economic disadvantaged groups. 

our support for not-college has been voiced many times. am believing many persons who fail college could find success in vocational schools, but am thinking the choice to attend a vocational school after they fail college is unnecessarily burdensome to students, and not just economic burdensome. it would be our preference if states could find ways to make college success more likely as well as identifying students more suited for vocational school while removing the pointless stigma which may accompany the vocational school choice... though am conceding we do not feel comfortable with placing the burden on government to make people feel better 'bout their life choices. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I think we're mostly on the same page here. We need to decouple economic success from college. There are lots of necessary roles that the market doesn't value (and therefore doesn't pay very well).

The purpose of college is to hone the mind. Colleges that print diplomas without producing critical thinkers aren't good colleges.

Which is why I think, ultimately, common core is probably a good thing. Unfortunately, I think the cost is going to be the "transitional" generation who started their educational careers under the old guard and got the "new stuff" later. Hopefully it helps to dismantle the "no child left behind" ethos of the 2000's also. My $0.02

[BruceVC]

41 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

like it or not, a university degree remains one of the better predictors o' eventual economic success. if jane goes to college, she will likely make more money, own a home and eventual send her own kids to college than if she did not complete a four-year degree. guidance counselors and teachers is not pushing kids to go to college on a whim or based on bad information... save for recognition far too many young adults is failing to complete their college degree goals.

however, economic security for those who get their polisci or art history degree is not a guarantee by any means. diplomas is not willy wonka golden tickets and is worth noting the national college dropout rate has steadily increased since the 70s, and has disproportionate increased for economic disadvantaged groups. 

our support for not-college has been voiced many times. am believing many persons who fail college could find success in vocational schools, but am thinking the choice to attend a vocational school after they fail college is unnecessarily burdensome to students, and not just economic burdensome. it would be our preference if states could find ways to make college success more likely as well as identifying students more suited for vocational school while removing the pointless stigma which may accompany the vocational school choice... though am conceding we do not feel comfortable with placing the burden on government to make people feel better 'bout their life choices. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Gromnir you have raised a very important point around the value of University degrees. Parents and students sometimes, well-meaningly , misunderstand why you should go to University and what degrees are going to help you get a job and achieve possible but real economic success. In these tumultuous and difficult global economic times I would argue you should chose your degree on 2 factors primarily 

• Is this something you enjoy and have an interest in
• Is this going to help you find a job and or are there enough jobs in this particular sector 

 

All degrees demonstrate hard work and add value but not all degrees provide you with a way to get a good job after University. So for example degrees like social science, philosophy , diplomacy, political science are degrees but are there decent jobs and enough jobs in these fields. Parents should ask " are corporations really looking for these skills " 

But degrees like anything financial, legal, medicine , engineering, sciences and many more there are definitely jobs out there for those who get these degrees and a real sustainable way to grow your career 

Edited January 17, 2021 by BruceVC

[Achilles]

5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Gromnir you have raised a very important point around the value of University degrees. Parents and students sometimes, well-meaningly , misunderstand why you should go to University and what degrees are going to help you get a job and achieve possible but real economic success. In these tumultuous and difficult global economic times I would argue you should chose your degree on 2 factors primarily 

• Is this something you enjoy and have an interest in
• Is this going to help you find a job and or are there enough jobs in this particular sector 

 

All degrees demonstrate hard work and add value but not all degrees provide you with a way to get a good job after University. So for example degrees like social science, philosophy , diplomacy, political science are degrees but are there decent jobs and enough jobs in these fields. Parents should ask " are corporations really looking for these skills " 

But degrees like anything financial, legal, medicine , engineering, sciences and many more there are definitely jobs out there for those who get these degrees and a real sustainable way to grow your career 

As someone who has tried to guide multiple young adults through the second bullet point, let me state unequivocally that it's utter bull****.

Nothing sucks more than trying to convince a young person to give up bullet point one because the market only values bullet point two.

It's not that the world doesn't need teachers, rather the market doesn't value them. Go in into finance instead.

[BruceVC]

12 minutes ago, Achilles said:

As someone who has tried to guide multiple young adults through the second bullet point, let me state unequivocally that it's utter bull****.

Nothing sucks more than trying to convince a young person to give up bullet point one because the market only values bullet point two.

It's not that the world doesn't need teachers, rather the market doesn't value them. Go in into finance instead.

Yes I understand the challenge, we see the same thing in SA so its not unique to the USA

But we have to find a way to make the point so that young people understand this not a negative but is about there future careers and more importantly the realistic growth of their careers

We have been having this debate in SA for about 6 years and I can tell you we dont have a working solution but for example lets say you want to help parents and students make the  best decision on " what degrees will help me with my career ", use online recruitment agencies and see what types of skills companies are looking for  and do value

You dont have to believe me but I can guarantee you the degrees I mentioned are in demand and companies do look for people that have both institutional experience in these fields, this comes in time  and the relevant qualification

But I do agree its very difficult to convince young people of this ostensibly better way to understand their career path and other considerations sometimes outweigh the prudent way forward

But it doesnt change the important outcomes in your career that certain degrees can provide 

 

 

[Achilles]

18 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Yes I understand the challenge, we see the same thing in SA so its not unique to the USA

But we have to find a way to make the point so that young people understand this not a negative but is about there future careers and more importantly the realistic growth of their careers

We have been having this debate in SA for about 6 years and I can tell you we dont have a working solution but for example lets say you want to help parents and students make the  best decision on " what degrees will help me with my career ", use online recruitment agencies and see what types of skills companies are looking for  and do value

You dont have to believe me but I can guarantee you the degrees I mentioned are in demand and companies do look for people that have both institutional experience in these fields, this comes in time  and the relevant qualification

But I do agree its very difficult to convince young people of this ostensibly better way to understand their career path and other considerations sometimes outweigh the prudent way forward

But it doesnt change the important outcomes in your career that certain degrees can provide

I made the point above, but apparently it bears repeating:

What the market wants and what the world needs aren't always the same. Becoming more skilled at browbeating young people into a career in solution architecture isn't the answer. At some point we will realize that we need teachers and that there aren't any to be found.

[Elerond]

51 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

All degrees demonstrate hard work and add value but not all degrees provide you with a way to get a good job after University. So for example degrees like social science, philosophy , diplomacy, political science are degrees but are there decent jobs and enough jobs in these fields. Parents should ask " are corporations really looking for these skills " 

In Finland universities, colleges and vocational schools constantly adjust how many people they take to any particular line based on estimates from public and private sectors what kind skills are needed in work force in three to five years in future. Also schools adjust their curricula constantly based on feedback from job market. This is done in order to minimize number of people that graduate with degree that is not needed on either public or private sector during time when people are estimated to graduate and for moribund sectors.

Although this is not without faults, like for example in beginning 2000s, when Nokia's dominance over cell phone markets was estimated to last decades, universities heavily focused to taught very Nokia specific subjects which caused problems on markets when Nokia's inner bureaucracy caused it to drop from cell phone markets entirely, which lead to situation where lot of students graduated to unemployment because there was no demand for their skills, luckily internet for things booms has allowed them to be able to found record number of start up tech companies to produces all sort of products that use cellular networks, so their education didn't go in waste, because they were able to create new market with their skills, but story could had much bleaker end too. 

[Boeroer]

Also the demand for X changes all the time. When I studied my first time to become a teacher (German and Biology) there were no vacancies and we were told that we most likely will have to drive a cab. Nowadays you could cherry-pick your school and would get picked up by a palanquin every morning.

When I studied Computer Science and later lectured in University IBM payed every student who went to do a practical semester with them 1,800 € a month. Just to get a hold of them and raising the possibility that they would "enlist" with IBM after graduation. Things have calmed down significantly since then. Computer Science is still likely to get you a good job, but it's nowhere as wild as it was. 

Between both studies I went and did an apprenticeship as Banker (because I didn't want to drive a cab) and it was very easy to get an apprenticeship (it's called dual system because you go to work and learn practically and also go to school to learn the theoretical stuff). Nowadays all the small banks do fuse and bankers get layed off. Digitalisation... 

Some fields will never have good chances though I fear - unless something fundamentally changes. In Germany we should be more open to people in management positions who are not economics graduates. I believe this is more common in the US?

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Boeroer

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

In Finland universities, colleges and vocational schools constantly adjust how many people they take to any particular line based on estimates from public and private sectors what kind skills are needed in work force in three to five years in future. Also schools adjust their curricula constantly based on feedback from job market. This is done in order to minimize number of people that graduate with degree that is not needed on either public or private sector during time when people are estimated to graduate and for moribund sectors.

Although this is not without faults, like for example in beginning 2000s, when Nokia's dominance over cell phone markets was estimated to last decades, universities heavily focused to taught very Nokia specific subjects which caused problems on markets when Nokia's inner bureaucracy caused it to drop from cell phone markets entirely, which lead to situation where lot of students graduated to unemployment because there was no demand for their skills, luckily internet for things booms has allowed them to be able to found record number of start up tech companies to produces all sort of products that use cellular networks, so their education didn't go in waste, because they were able to create new market with their skills, but story could had much bleaker end too. 

Finland and other countries are doing exactly what I wish we could do in SA and what would help the USA and other countries address the issue of " degrees that dont add value and help you get a job "

In fact we are trying to achieve the exact same thing in  SA where the private sector provides guidance around what skills its looking for. Well done Finland, I am glad this can be achieved. One question though, do students get a choice based on if they actually enjoy the degree and the work afterwards? For example lets say its been identified we need more bankers so  BCOM becomes the mot effective degree to achieve this but the majority of Finnish students dont seem to like studying BCOM....do they get encouraged and or forced to study this or do students and parents realize this is the best way forward so students study this without being influenced or forced?

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Also the demand for X changes all the time. When I studied my first time to become a teacher (German and Biology) there were no vacancies and we were told that we most likely will have to drive a cab. Nowadays you could cherry-pick your school and would get picked up by a palanquin every morning.

When I studied Computer Science and later lectured in University IBM payed every student who went to do a practical semester with them 1,800 € a month. Just to get a hold of them and raising the possibility that they would "enlist" with IBM after graduation. Things have calmed down significantly since then. Computer Science is still likely to get you a good job, but it's nowhere as wild as it was. 

Between both studies I went and did an apprenticeship as Banker (because I didn't want to drive a cab) and it was very easy to get an apprenticeship (it's called dual system because you go to work and learn practically and also go to school to learn the theoretical stuff). Nowadays all the small banks do fuse and bankers get layed off. Digitalisation... 

Some fields will never have good chances though I fear - unless something fundamentally changes. In Germany we should be more open to people in management positions who are not economics graduates. I believe this is more common in the US?

 

Computer Science is still an excellent degree and one of those degrees on my list  of " good career path  and there are jobs in this field " 

Edited January 17, 2021 by BruceVC

[Boeroer]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Computer Science is still an excellent degree and one of those degrees on my list  of " good career path  and there are jobs in this field " 

This might already have changed by the time the student graduates though.

Because of that I also think it's not the best approach to tightly limit student numbers for a certain field - unless the people who decide have a real good crystal ball. 

Better to be open for carrier changers imo. Because let's be honest: most important things I needed to know for a certain job were learned on the job, not at university.

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

This might already have changed by the time the student graduates though.

Because of that I also think it's not the best approach to tightly limit student numbers for a certain field - unless the people who decide have a real good crystal ball. 

Better to be open for carrier changers imo. Because let's be honest: most important things I needed to know for a certain job were learned on the job, not at university.

Yes it never changes and never will that the  your actual work\institutional  experience is a huge part of your learning curve and career growth. And  as time goes on and you gain more work experience you can  definitely increase your value to any company which means you get paid more and incentivized in better ways because then your company values your contribution and should recognize it 

But in many fields you still need the degree as the entry point into that field as it demonstrates you have both an interest and aptitude  for that field in most cases  

Edited January 17, 2021 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

40 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Finland and other countries are doing exactly what I wish we could do in SA and what would help the USA and other countries address the issue of " degrees that dont add value and help you get a job "

In fact we are trying to achieve the exact same thing in  SA where the private sector provides guidance around what skills its looking for. Well done Finland, I am glad this can be achieved. One question though, do students get a choice based on if they actually enjoy the degree and the work afterwards? For example lets say its been identified we need more bankers so  BCOM becomes the mot effective degree to achieve this but the majority of Finnish students dont seem to like studying BCOM....do they get encouraged and or forced to study this or do students and parents realize this is the best way forward so students study this without being influenced for forced?

There is no forcing, also parents influence in students choice of higher education is surprisingly low in Finland (less than 1% of students say that their parents influenced of their choice). This is maybe because education is free and no job is seen to be beneath of any body

Students are encouraged to study certain subjects by increasing amount of admissions in degree programme that are needed and lowering admissions in degree programme where demand is decreasing. Finnish universities use common application where students seek admission to all universities and degree programme they are interested in same application,  so students may not pick BBA (which is our equivalent of BCOM) their first, second, third or forth but their fifth backup choice because there is 400 hundred admission spots where their first four choices only have less than 100 total. Also school councilors help students find programmes that they are interested and encourage them to find at least as back up one programme from sectors where there is high demand and therefore admission is (almost) certain.

Also universities advertise their programs where they need more applications and student usually needs to see effort in order to find information about programmes that aren't currently in demand.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, Elerond said:

There is no forcing, also parents influence in students choice of higher education is surprisingly low in Finland (less than 1% of students say that their parents influenced of their choice). This is maybe because education is free and no job is seen to be beneath of any body

Students are encouraged to study certain subjects by increasing amount of admissions in degree programme that are needed and lowering admissions in degree programme where demand is decreasing. Finnish universities use common application where students seek admission to all universities and degree programme they are interested in same application,  so students may not pick BBA (which is our equivalent of BCOM) their first, second, third or forth but their fifth backup choice because there is 400 hundred admission spots where their first four choices only have less than 100 total. Also school councilors help students find programmes that they are interested and encourage them to find at least as back up one programme from sectors where there is high demand and therefore admission is (almost) certain.

Also universities advertise their programs where they need more applications and student usually needs to see effort in order to find information about programmes that aren't currently in demand.

I think you have an excellent system that provides real jobs and career growth once you leave University and still gives choices 

You not stopping people studying what they want but you are realistically encouraging and influencing  necessary skill development 

Nothing is perfect like you originally said, the Nokia example is  what sometimes can occur due to perception of  a certain skill field and this can sometimes be wrong...but the good of your system far outweighs the bad 

[BruceVC]

18 minutes ago, Elerond said:

There is no forcing, also parents influence in students choice of higher education is surprisingly low in Finland (less than 1% of students say that their parents influenced of their choice). This is maybe because education is free and no job is seen to be beneath of any body

Students are encouraged to study certain subjects by increasing amount of admissions in degree programme that are needed and lowering admissions in degree programme where demand is decreasing. Finnish universities use common application where students seek admission to all universities and degree programme they are interested in same application,  so students may not pick BBA (which is our equivalent of BCOM) their first, second, third or forth but their fifth backup choice because there is 400 hundred admission spots where their first four choices only have less than 100 total. Also school councilors help students find programmes that they are interested and encourage them to find at least as back up one programme from sectors where there is high demand and therefore admission is (almost) certain.

Also universities advertise their programs where they need more applications and student usually needs to see effort in order to find information about programmes that aren't currently in demand.

Oh something else I wanted to clarify, are all your degrees paid for by the state? In other words do you have student debt and can a parent choose to pay for a certain degree even if there are less admissions available because the parents only want there kids to study that particular degree?  Or are all admissions controlled and allocated by the state?

[Darkpriest]

Well, the safe choices for career paths are always:

- medical

- lawyer

- construction: highly qualified, electricians, plumbers, carpenters, architects, machine operators

Careers that are safe, if you are passionate about the work you are doing:

- software engineering

- machine engineering

- system/solution architect

- data architect

- athletics: personal trainer

- gardening/farming

- cook

- food engineer/food processing designer

- chemists/bio-chemists

- bio-engineer/genetics

- change manager/restructure specialist

- business analytic

- social engineer/marketing

- academic teacher/lecturer/researcher in niche fields that require technical skillset-physics, math, geology, chemistry, biology, technology

 

Other jobs are either low value or hobby jobs, as they are easily replacable by tech, or there is abundance of people with a given skillset needed for a particular job - like most clerk jobs or customer service jobs or junior and middle grade managers. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Darkpriest

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Oh something else I wanted to clarify, are all your degrees paid for by the state? In other words do you have student debt and can a parent choose to pay for a certain degree even if there are less admissions available because the parents only want there kids to study that particular degree?  Or are all admissions controlled and allocated by the state?

Currently all the university degrees are paid by state and only way to get admission is through application where people are picked according to pre-set rules that consist of valuing their matriculation exam scores and how many points they scored in university's entrance exams and people get in scoring order. Although there is possible to study university course in so called open university programs where students pay fee per credit (about 15€ per credit (credit means about 26.67 h worth of study, typical course is 3-6 credits, bachelor degree is about 180 credits and master is about 300 credits )), this route gives ability for those who are dead set to certain degree or who have done poorly in their matriculation exam or don't have done it at all and aren't able to score high enough in entrance exams to study in university even though they aren't been able to get admission and try to get admission in next year. 

State pays all the students student allowance which consist of monthly 252,76 € direct allowance and state secured loan 650 € per study month (usually 9 per year, so 5850€ per year if student doesn't apply to extra studies during summer) which student can take per 6 months and housing allowance which is 80% of housing expenses up to maximum allowance which depends on which city you live.  Student get allowance for max 55 study months (so total 13 901.8€ direct allowance and 35 750€ student loan [secured by state] per student regardless of how many degrees they study) if they don't graduate in that point they need start to pay their living from fully from their own pocket, although they usually are able to get state's low income support if they don't have job. If student has not graduated in 10 years they are kicked out and they need re-apply. Student and housing allowance and loan security is meant to give students ability to pay their living during their studies. Current interest rate in student loans is 0% (this can change if reference rate increase lot) + 5-10€ monthly fee depending on which bank student got their loan and students have 15-30 years time to pay loans back one year after they have graduated or one year after they received their 55th allowance payment, which ever comes first.

[Boeroer]

Jobs like geriatric nurse are and will be very important in an aging society - yet the "market" completely fails to allocate resources accordingly. Maybe there will be solutions to this problem and it will become an attractive job.

If KI continues to evolve like it does, corporate lawyers will have a hard time. Software engineers like me as well. 

It's not predictable what will have been a good choice 10 years from now on. So I wouldn't make career choices only based on that assumption.

Imo it's better to pursue a carrer path that you are passionate about.

Of course many people aren't really passionate about anything. I was the same when I graduated from Gymanasium (bit like high school). I had no idea what I wanted to do. I know I liked school for the most part, the German langage and Biology but I wasn't like "I really want to be a teacher". I knew I neither wanted to be a mason and steel fixer like my dad nor a hairdresser like my mom (those would have been rel. low-aimed choices for somebody with a general higher education entrance qualification anyway). 

I think school does a rel. poor job of showing you what you might really like to do for a living. 

If you already know what you want to do right after school: that's a real blessing.  

Edited January 17, 2021 by Boeroer

[Darkpriest]

Lawyers will always be there as long as there are politicians and beurocracy. 

Software engineers are already relegated to a good profession only to real good ones and passionate ones. 

Offshoring of the jobs and work in a global network pushes average and regular software engineering jobs from high cost to lower cost locations (India, China, Ukraine, Belarus) 

Even high quality work is pushed, unless its 'strategic' and needs to be near the top senior management. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Darkpriest

[Guard Dog]

8 hours ago, Achilles said:

 

I guess my argument would be that markets have seeped their way into the university system and corrupted it, but I'm sure that one or more libertarians will be on their way shortly to correct my thinking on the matter

Nah. The corrections are already there for anyone willing. I got my degree paying in-state tuition rates in Florida in the 90s. But because of veterans benefits I only paid about a third of the cost out-of-pocket. I worked for AT&T a few years back. We had a tuition reimbursement plan. You put the money up took the class and as long as you’ve got a 2.5 or better average they reimbursed you in full for the tuition books and labs. The only catch was it if you completed the degree you had to work for them for five years. The Veterans Affairs offers medical scholarships that pay all costs for med school. The only catch you have to work for them for 10 years after. 
 

There are numerous corporations, organizations, people, who have money and need services. If you’re willing to trade them time in service they’ll pay tuition.

as for the spiraling cost of a higher education will have already voiced one idea. I think a university should operate much more like a technical college. And not compel people to pay for classes that are not essential for their field of study. Like I said that’s just being generous towards themselves with other peoples money. And making colleges easier to pay for does a poor job of incentivizing colleges to offer their services for less money. It does exactly the opposite. Any higher education will become free as soon as the universities and their professors agree to work for free.

what’s the solution? I don’t know. I don’t really give a damn. If I were to give advice to a kid coming out of high school today one of middling grades in no specific direction I would advise a vo-tech school. HVAC repair will always be in demand pays really well you’ll come out of the program earning $65-$70,000 a year with no debt and it only goes up from there. You’re a hell of a lot better off than an intern fresh out of med school With two student loans and years of dues paying before he hits the big money. It would take that doctor a long time to catch up to the guy who is the HVAC mechanic. Especially considering the HVAC guy has a seven-year Headstart on him.

[Guard Dog]

One other note. And I can’t speak for everybody but hell will freeze into a solid block before I ever write a check to FAU Or attend any of their alumni functions or interact with them in anyway. Anybody who writes checks to their Alma Mater has more money than sense. That’s like sending Christmas gifts to the people who robbed you.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Hurlshort]

6 hours ago, Achilles said:

 

It's not that the world doesn't need teachers, rather the market doesn't value them. Go in into finance instead.

Jerkface.

I know a number of miserable accountants living in nice houses. My wife and I are in education and can't buy a house, but we do love our jobs. It's a tough trade off. 

Also, the pandemic is decimating an already bleak teacher shortage in the US: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/09/teacher-shortage-and-covid-19-create-challenge-for-education-system.html#:~:text=Help Wanted-,A shortage of teachers and Covid-19 create a,storm for the education system&text=The Economic Policy Institute reports,below its year-ago levels.

[Gromnir]

7 hours ago, Achilles said:

As someone who has tried to guide multiple young adults through the second bullet point, let me state unequivocally that it's utter bull****.

Nothing sucks more than trying to convince a young person to give up bullet point one because the market only values bullet point two.

It's not that the world doesn't need teachers, rather the market doesn't value them. Go in into finance instead.

the conversation with debbie lee, grade twelve, is potential gonna be rough. can't imagine it gets easier with mr and/mrs. lee... or any combination or absences o' misters and madams you care to imagine.

no matter how you deliver your speech, the student or parent(s) is gonna hear you telling 'em that after more than a decade o' education, their daughter doesn't have what it takes to succeed at a college. same students and parents has been told ad nauseum how important is education, and now a high school guidance counselor or teacher is explaining that debbie should consider working for ups or perhaps attending the hvac school in nearby sheboygan... and that's ok. 

am suspecting debbie and/or the parent will find little solace in being told that the moribund MBAs who current run the business world, themselves a product o' the school of human potential development which reinforces the self-perpetuating truth that you need to go to the best University possible, are too myopic to realize the value o' a good air conditioner repair technician. 

is not actual funny and is doubtful debbie or the parent(s) have the same speedy journey as did homer.  even if tomorrow there is a sea change in secondary education and the the business world hierarchy, whatever benefits result will not help debbie, at least not today. is no simple fixes. is no magic pills. is no revolutionary innovation capable of fixing for debbie... unless is involving time travel. stuck in denial is why college dropout rate continues to increase? 

as usual, the fixes involve long term solutions which will not see payoff 'til long after the next election cycle or quarterly report. sell legislators and voters on the need for a bit of economic pain today to benefit debbie's kids? good luck.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

Universal basic income is spoken up with derision  quite a bit. And at present it is unworkable. But we are coming to a point rapidly where there will be more workers than work. Automation, obsolescence, coupled with a population that only expands. I am not sure where the breaking point is but I am sure there is one. Maybe that art appreciation degree won’t be worthless after all. Maybe at some point in the future there will be time for artist to create art and for educated people to appreciate it. But, not today.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gfted1]

Excellent, embrace the darkness. I just hope it kicks in within the next 8 years, I need my bag.