Politics 2020

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Achilles said:

This is my favorite thing about Gfted1; his complete lack of self-awareness.

lovin' that internet, indeed.

oh, don't underestimate his value. we mentioned elsewhere that if there were not a person present who misunderstood the 94% silliness making its way 'mongst the covid-19 hoaxers, we would need invent such an improbable person. your mod beats us to the point almost every time. if there is bad science or pro china tyranny argument which needs be rejected, you have identified the most likely candidate to offer himself up like the staked goat in jurassic park. sure, we feel a bit guilty at times, but do not undervalue that kinda predictability.

skarpen_one is preternatural capable o' misrepresenting any legal issue and yet nevertheless appears unable to restrain himself from weighing in on those issues. meet a person with a peanut allergy who literal cannot stop themselves from eating peanuts? doesn't exist, right? shouldn't possible exist. skarp_one exists. curious. 

oro posts such as the following:

blm protesters don't deserve compassion or understanding, but white supremacists do? somehow manages to act hurt or offended when his message ain't taken more serious. serious?

and am not certain what happened to vol in recent years. every bad cop encounter is by definition the fault o' blm or antifa?  vol somehow is God's punishment for the 1619 project? for those o' you who wanna frame every event in US and western history as a result o' institutional supported slavery, vol exists as the extreme opposite living response.

maybe one or two others...

is some folks who contribute to the board not 'cause there is a point in attempting to debate 'em or move 'em or in the initial case, make 'em at least a little more self aware. those folks may nevertheless serve different purposes. they (how does the mod put it?) "qq" at being "misrepresented" with direct quotes o' their posts. is amusing stuff.

oh, and is not as if they is all wrong all the time. have specific noted vol is not always wrong and have agreed with not skarp_one but the others in the past, if only extreme rare. have pointed out how am moderate terrified when vol isn't wrong as is kinda akin to deciphering a warning from Revelations in real time. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Gromnir
it is september but we had too many mays for comfort

[Orogun01]

@Gromnir feel free to ignore this question but is the reason you take offense to that particular post personal? or do you really believe I'm a white supremacist?
I just thought you kept bringing it because it makes me look bad and lawyers are taught to very good at spinning things.

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

@Gromnir feel free to ignore this question but is the reason you take offense to that particular post personal? or do you really believe I'm a white supremacist?
I just thought you kept bringing it because it makes me look bad and lawyers are taught to very good at spinning things.

why would you think is personal? am suspecting the real question is why you question the significance o' the post we linked, or many similar but a bit less wieldy posts we could link and has quoted.

and where is the spin? we reposted your post w/o any effort to describe or characterize. am thinking this whole "spin" concept is a mystery to you. gonna accuse us o' misrepresentation or misleading? 

am not calling you a white supremacist or a bigot or even an anti-semite. am suspecting such would cross some kinda obsidian board line... though the line is somewhat tidal in nature. repost your posts cannot result in an accusation o' name calling and is 'bout as opposite o' mischaracterization as is possible.

your posts, and words, speak for themselves and defy any attempt at spin or a pivot. somehow make this a personal quirk o' Gromnir's?

HA!

to stay on-topic, am more than a little concerned 'bout the Court if trump manages to install an appointment either before the election or as a lame duck. am not seeing many romneys, flakes or mccains on the democrat side o' the aisle at the moment. the current republican justification for their rush to instal a new Justice is that they got a mandate from the people. is speciscious. is a different justification than 2016. what the senate republicans have at the moment is a simple majority which confers the power to make choices. if democrats win the senate and Presidency, they will likewise have the power to add Justices to the Court. one wonders what will be the response from republicans when, sooner or later, democrats have power to do unto republicans. will sudden minority republicans nod in stoic and silent acknowledgement that the Constitution grants such power to Congress and that the American people voted creating a mandate for change?

unfortunate, the President and republicans seem hellbent on doing this regardless o' the consequences. 

mcconnell gambled four years ago and won. a republican President were installed and a nine month delay in the nomination process proved to be an enormous strategic win for mitch. like him or hate him, but mad props to mitch for his victory. however, the stakes is much bigger this time. if mcconnell forces a replacement through (don't misunderstand 'cause this will be mitch's decision regardless o' what trump wants) and democrats win Presidency and senate, then we predict a mark anthony moment. 

there will be a political reckoning, and there won't be a democrat version o' mccain to stand 'gainst the tide and demand a return to normalcy.

oh, and keep in mind we ain't going all fox media and predicting actual blood in the streets in an attempt to scare the +65 audience which makes up a majority o' their viewers. 

HA! Good Fun!

[ComradeYellow]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

there will be a political reckoning, and there won't be a democrat version o' mccain to stand 'gainst the tide and demand a return to normalcy.

"Normalcy" wasn't good, which is why Trump won in the first place.

If the suffering people in the Midwest wanted a 'Normal' candidate, then they would have voted in Clinton, which is why I think the only thing that can stop Trumpism is a transformational candidate that's anything but normal.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, ComradeMaster said:

"Normalcy" wasn't good, which is why Trump won in the first place.

If the suffering people in the Midwest wanted a 'Normal' candidate, then they would have voted in Clinton, which is why I think the only thing that can stop Trumpism is a transformational candidate that's anything but normal.

no.

normalcy were, at the very least, pre-obama. we pointed out how the current supreme Court snafu owes its lineage to obama and harry reid, which is why we were so annoyed obama chose to inject his filibuster bit into the eulogy o' john lewis. you have no idea how difficult it is for us to not add f#@&*ing whenever we read "fillibuster." obama increased, by a significant degree, the capacity o' the fed to spy on americans and used the irs to go after the tea party. no President since lincoln imprisoned more journalists and obama's use o' executive orders (again, don't get confused by pure number o' executive orders) to avoid Congress not only led to the current administration magnifying the abuse but made it all to easy to simple end previous administration practices.

etc.

is hard to believe nowadays, but rust belt midwesterners voted for obama, and change.  by 2016, they felt betrayed.

the insanity o' the situation is that the recession were particularly hard on those folks w/o college degrees, punishing many groups o' minority voters AND undereducated white voters. legacy o' the recession is one reason we got so many protests today, and trump in the wh. is ironic, but the mistaken belief that somehow washington were ignoring red states in favor o' urban were utter bs.  if not for divisive alt-right narrative which were so effective, minority groups and all those undereducated rust belt midwesterners would/should be natural allies, 'cause as a group they has all suffered disproportionate for far too long. polarization takes folks suffering many o' the same problems and turns 'em into antagonists such that now they can't even be in the same room with each other w/o a fight breaking out.

oh, and again, the trump base is undereducated. some will act offended by the label but is not strict streaking pejorative. like it or not, working class whites is the trump base, and by definition that is folks who has a low incidence o' college education.  how such folks voted is hardly meaningful proof that normalcy were bad. we would say is at least a strong argument in favor o' our signature.

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

is so many current problems which can be fixed with education, ignorance being one o' the more pervasive and insidious US problems.  ignorance is also not pejorative in and of itself. we worked more than our fair share o' blue color jobs before we became a lawyer. ranch hand. roofing. roofing supply. landscape maintenance. the folks we worked with as we stacked +40 lb armfuls o' hurled concrete tile on the roofs o' homes we could not afford to live in were not, for the most part, dumb. they were uneducated, and their job were back breaking and arduous and whatever extra time they had were invested in overtime. little opportunity to go to college when everyday ended in exhaustion. lack o' education is a far different thing than stoopid, and stoopid itself is forgivable. is willful ignorance which should be intolerable.

btw, 9/11 and patriot act sure as hell weren't normal either. regardless, normalcy is a bit further in the rearview mirror than implied.

HA! Good Fun!

ps we were forgetting how good were the jay pharoah impression o' obama. 

[Amentep]

We ask that the users of this board treat one another with respect, even when opinions differ.  Please remember to discuss issues and ideas and not other users, their mindsets or motivations.

[Orogun01]

31 minutes ago, Amentep said:

We ask that the users of this board treat one another with respect, even when opinions differ.  Please remember to discuss issues and ideas and not other users, their mindsets or motivations.

Nah, at this point we're family I hope no one gets to wound up about a disagreement. BTW, I haven't asked...who's the new avatar?

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Amentep said:

We ask that the users of this board treat one another with respect, even when opinions differ.  Please remember to discuss issues and ideas and not other users, their mindsets or motivations.

Does that extend to the moderators just us plebs?

[Malcador]

19 minutes ago, Achilles said:

Does that extend to the moderators just us plebs?

Think you'd have better luck with the NYPD.

[Orogun01]

Moderator Lives Matter.

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

@Gromnir feel free to ignore this question but is the reason you take offense to that particular post personal? or do you really believe I'm a white supremacist?
I just thought you kept bringing it because it makes me look bad and lawyers are taught to very good at spinning things.

You make some good points and it adds to an overall better understanding of the US political machinery to listen to  different political views.....we dont want to live in some echo chamber listening to repeats of any political view. Its really unhelpful especially when the echo chamber is wrong, like the last 2016 when I thought Hilary Clinton was going to win

I learnt a big lesson that day about not bothering to understand all ideological views  and general sentiment on the ground 

Anecdotal stories help to also understand the complex tapestry of the US political system and all the groups of people who live in the USA. Many members share anecdotal and its always appreciated. Like your very interesting post of your journey from Cuba, thanks for sharing that. I learnt loads and you can easily  agree who someone has different  views  on certain topics but similar views on another topic 

For example I have always been concerned with the insidious risk posed by far left " political " movements that sometimes are vociferous but politically weak, for example in SA we have this one trade union who is unintentionally responsible for contributing towards our deep debt, erosion of labor working contribution and profitability  and our  massive, unacceptable public sector wages bill. Our public sector wages consumes 30 % of our total yearly taxes, 30 % of total taxes !!! And we have the second highest paid public sector relevant to GDP in the world.....yet we have huge failures throughout the country around municipalities who consistently fail to deliver services and all our SOE are basically running at billions of rands of losses each year consistently for the last 6  years. Yet this one union decides its going to create its own political party called the " Socialist Revolutionary Workers Party " and instructed all its members to vote for it in the last election in 2019...yet it only got 20k votes and was an epic failure..check there website 

https://www.srwp.org.za/

So modern day " socialist " movement have these incongruous, nebulous objectives around addressing inequality yet they are happy to benefit from the " evil, Capitalist " system when they demand bonuses and above inflation increases ...and you wonder why I think old school socialism and these modern day ideas of socialism are flawed 

And you coming from Cuba have direct lived experience with  how ideological views like socialism can destroy economies and force citizens to leave there country to find livelihood elsewhere like the USA. I am glad many Cubans have found an new home in the USA and particularly Florida and the US Cuban community is an important community that contributes to the overall economy and growth in the USA 

In closing you can see how different people from different countries, like you and I , can easily agree on many issues like the  risk and danger of socialism as we have experienced and seen its harm in different ways 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Achilles said:

Does that extend to the moderators just us plebs?

The Moderators are really fine on this forum, they also very fair around how they raise issues  and complaints people have against you 

I also think the general debating environment is very cordial and not  abrasive in any real way. Also you cant allow yourself to get upset with occasional perceived rudeness or name calling, I have been called   a troll so many times I have lost count... imagine if I allowed myself to get upset every time someone said " BruceVC is a troll " , I would be upset at least once every 2-3 weeks  unnecessarily and I have been active on this forum for 10 years 

 As Gfted1 said its a common  response mechanism to a debate when a person cant respond in a mature or informed way to malign the person " you dont agree with me ...you must be a troll " 

In life when you engage in certain political and ideological debates you must learn to not take things personally and just avoid being distracted by meaningless debates that are not informative but emotional 

[Darkpriest]

3 hours ago, Achilles said:

Does that extend to the moderators just us plebs?

To be honest, mods here are really chill. 

If you'd try having similar discussions on twitter, half of participants would be banned or shadow banned

 

Long live the mods! 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

To be honest, mods here are really chill. 

If you'd try having similar discussions on twitter, half of participants would be banned or shadow banned

Long live the mods! 

Agreed, regarding 99% of them.

[ComradeYellow]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

In closing you can see how different people from different countries, like you and I , can easily agree on many issues like the  risk and danger of socialism as we have experienced and seen its harm in different ways 

Every ideology has its fans, there's people in Cuba and Venezuela who support their governments wholeheartedly.

I think the biggest issue here people have is lack of Democracy rather than different economic approaches.  Look at Europe at the 2nd half of the 20th century.  Socialist parties were all over the place and doing well and when the pendulum swung in the 1980's or so they started waning in popularity.  Democracy.

EDIT:  China is a whole different animal.  There's no legitimate democracy there but their government is able to adapt to popular moods and change accordingly unike the U.S.

An expert on Chinese affairs once said that in China you can't change the Party but you can change the policy, in the U.S. you can change the Party but you can't change the policy.

I think there's a lot of validity to that.

Edited September 22, 2020 by ComradeMaster

[BruceVC]

14 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Every ideology has its fans, there's people in Cuba and Venezuela who support their governments wholeheartedly.

I think the biggest issue here people have is lack of Democracy rather than different economic approaches.  Look at Europe at the 2nd half of the 20th century.  Socialist parties were all over the place and doing well Tand when the pendulum swung in the 1980's or so they started waning in popularity.  Democracy.

You make some good points, there are definitely people in Cuba who still support the Cuban revolution and Castro generally. There are really, good news stories around the  world of the work Cuban doctors do including currently in SA where Cuban doctors have been brought in to help with the virus pandemic, we do pay them of course which is reasonable so its pure Capitalism and nothing wrong with that 

But both these counties have weak and poorly performing economies for different reasons and some similar around there economic policies and in the case of Venezuela what was the absolute primary contribution towards there economic collapse was the 2007  illegal, theft ( under the guide of " nationalization ) of the assets of global, oil companies that had invested in the country for over 100 years....here is an excellent article that discuses this and Chavez is directly responsible for this 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/05/07/how-venezuela-ruined-its-oil-industry/#2684bf2d7399

So even though I agree both these countries have citizens who support their socialist governments, its the socialist policies that are the main contribution towards poverty within there own borders..so you end up believing and supporting  socialism but live in different degrees of poverty. Its not a very convincing objective to get me to change my mind around the current many examples of working, Democratic countries  that are strong economies and  have overall good qualities of life  and use the free market\Capitalist system to drive their economies ?

 

[Amentep]

5 hours ago, Achilles said:

Does that extend to the moderators just us plebs?

We ask that you report posts that you feel violate the Forum Guidelines for review of the moderator team for moderators just as you would other posters.

[Pidesco]

1 hour ago, Achilles said:

Agreed, regarding 99% of them.

 

How many moderators do you think there are? Or do you object to Gifted1's left elbow's moderating performance?

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

So even though I agree both these countries have citizens who support their socialist governments, its the socialist policies that are the main contribution towards poverty within there own borders..so you end up believing and supporting  socialism but live in different degrees of poverty. Its not a very convincing objective to get me to change my mind around the current many examples of working, Democratic countries  that are strong economies and  have overall good qualities of life  and use the free market\Capitalist system to drive their economies ?

You could argue that the embargo and blockade by the US for 60 years now, has done more to cripple the economy and enforce hardship on the Cuban population as a whole than any domestic policy ever did. That's all speculation of course, because we'll never know the alternative if the embargo hadn't been placed there. Fairly sure they would have been screwed over even more if Batista had remained in power for decades. The same kind of government as the military junta that ruled Chile for decades.

 

Edit: Venezuela is very different, the plaything of a meglomaniac who squandered oil money rather than invest in education and infrastructure (and now oil if just about worthless)

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

 

For example I have always been concerned with the insidious risk posed by far left " political " movements that sometimes are vociferous but politically weak, for example in SA we have this one trade union who is unintentionally responsible for contributing towards our deep debt, erosion of labor working contribution and profitability  and our  massive, unacceptable public sector wages bill. Our public sector wages consumes 30 % of our total yearly taxes, 30 % of total taxes !!! And we have the second highest paid public sector relevant to GDP in the world.....yet we have huge failures throughout the country around municipalities who consistently fail to deliver services and all our SOE are basically running at billions of rands of losses each year consistently for the last 6  years. Yet this one union decides its going to create its own political party called the " Socialist Revolutionary Workers Party " and instructed all its members to vote for it in the last election in 2019...yet it only got 20k votes and was an epic failure..check there website 

Seems like nothing too insidious to be paranoid about, they're not going to be jumping your gates any time soon.

6 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

To be honest, mods here are really chill. 

If you'd try having similar discussions on twitter, half of participants would be banned or shadow banned

 

Long live the mods! 

Eh, they're better than nothing. Was on another game company's forum and they ban people for expressing any negativity about the developers, so could be worse, yah.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Malcador

[213374U]

12 hours ago, Gromnir said:

if not for divisive alt-right narrative which were so effective, minority groups and all those undereducated rust belt midwesterners would/should be natural allies, 'cause as a group they has all suffered disproportionate for far too long. polarization takes folks suffering many o' the same problems and turns 'em into antagonists such that now they can't even be in the same room with each other w/o a fight breaking out.

A core component of the alt-right narrative is trampolining off of the libs' ridiculous focus on idpol, though. MLK said:

One unfortunate thing about [the slogan] Black Power is that it gives priority to race precisely at a time when the impact of automation and other forces have made the economic question fundamental for blacks and whites alike. In this context a slogan ‘Power for Poor People’ would be much more appropriate than the slogan ‘Black Power.’

Substitute "Black Power" for BLM, and it's uncanny how relevant the quote seems today. It's also a bit too close to Bernie's spiel for comfort. Dr. King was a bit of a class warrior, and that's a big no‑no to the corporate establishment "left". So instead, idpol -- and reactionary hyperbole and hoaxes from the alt-right.

Sadly, even in the absence of the societal background at the root of American idpol, the cancer has been fast spreading to left parties on our side of the pond that aren't quite so obviously bought and paid for by special interests. Idiocy and blind ideological adherence. The American "left" can't crash and burn soon enough if you ask me.

 

9 hours ago, Malcador said:

Think you'd have better luck with the NYPD.

And stuff like this is why I keep telling my superiors that we need MRAPs and microwave guns if we are to prevent WoT from becoming a no-go zone.

Damned forum terrorists...

Edited September 22, 2020 by 213374U
(an)caps

[Malcador]

3 minutes ago, 213374U said:

And stuff like this is why I keep telling my superiors that we need MRAPs and microwave guns if we are to prevent WoT from becoming a no-go zone.

Damned forum terrorists...

At the very least, you need to install spyware to watch the denizens.

[Hurlshort]

44 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Seems like nothing too insidious to be paranoid about, they're not going to be jumping your gates any time soon.

Eh, they're better than nothing. Was on another game company's forum and they ban people for expressing any negativity about the developers, so could be worse, yah.

Yeah, *bleep* Obsidian! Long live the Obsidian Forums!  

[Malcador]

10 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Yeah, *bleep* Obsidian! Long live the Obsidian Forums!  

No, this would be banning people for grousing about poor QA or lack of support - the company is SI, they make FM.  And they warn for even having the "tone" of that kind of negativity

 

[Guard Dog]

The current state of American politics. Democrats on one side Republicans on the other