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6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Elerond I respect your opinion on these discussions because you have a very   reasonable and understandable view of privacy and peoples right. Plus you live in Finland which means you respect the EU and the positive things it brings to all countries. You also a software developer, which I never knew, so you understand how most software components work so I can get straight to the technical point....but reading your post I need to explain it differently

But can we first  agree on where the issue lies, the link below is what Facebook is accused of , Is the same thing you are talking about ?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-gave-some-companies-preferential-user-data-according-to-uk-parliament/

 

 

Not sure if related, but cut and pasting something from Forbes magazine:

"The Cambridge Analytica scandal may have exposed the raw truth about data security and manipulation on social media, but the issue is rooted in the platforms—the potential for deriving intelligence from otherwise innocuous data. Many of the tools are new, leveraging AI and pattern analytics to map relationships between people “through link analysis,” to use natural language processing to “assign meaning or attitude to social media posts,” and to mine data for information about “past, present, or future locations.” And so are you really being watched? Probably."

All governments have to do is flick the switch and get the end of the month summary report on the populations mood and tendencies.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Just now, Orogun01 said:

A study of the ideals of the far left its like studying  Schrodinger's Cat, Entropy or the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Its going to end in the same conclusion; you just don't know.

If you don't know, and profess the subject to be unknowable, then why are you making definitive statements? Seems to indicate a tendency of fabrication, but I guess that's to be expected.

Regardless, this statement is just false. The far left is open about what it believes, often repetitively and annoyingly so, across the various ideological factions that constitute it. You only have to read a bit from The Intercept, Jacobin, Crimethinc, It's Going Down, WSWS, or one of the various tankie websites to get an idea of what everyone from the left-liberal social democrats to insurrectionary anarchists thinks about any given issue and hear a cookie cutter response what they think needs to be done. For someone who is convinced about a decades long campaign of ideological subversion by various foreign powers you've seemingly done no research into what those ideologies actually are.

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"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

"I'm fine with humanity being wiped out" - majestic

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8 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

For someone who is convinced about a decades long campaign of ideological subversion by various foreign powers you've seemingly done no research into what those ideologies actually are.

Communism good Capitalism bad?

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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10 minutes ago, Gorth said:

All governments have to do is flick the switch and get the end of the month summary report on the populations mood and tendencies.

If it's between governments having access to this data and corporations, I'd prefer it be governments (but really, I'd rather no one did).

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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44 minutes ago, majestic said:

Yes, every political dissident needs to be put in a hard labor camp where they can properly concentrate on becoming better citizens. So they can do their part. Like the Chinese do. Wait a moment, you don't really like the Chinese government, that can't be it.

Are you sure you're South African and not Argentinian with German ancestry? :p

Bruce probably idolizes Rhodesia.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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2 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Bruce probably idolizes Rhodesia.

Come on, I know this is going to sound extremely weird coming from me but.... let's be civil. We can have disagreements whilst knowing most people are decent and want the best for mankind.

I don't expect Bruce to around with a machine gun shooting black Africans anymore than I expect you to be one of those filthy Franco Canadians that expect everyone to speak their stupid language and discriminate against English speakers. Only because their stupid accent makes them sound retarded in English, I hooked up with a Quebeqian girl and I felt bad....until I realized she wasn't retarded she just had an accent.

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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1 hour ago, Gorth said:

All governments have to do is flick the switch and get the end of the month summary report on the populations mood and tendencies.

In some cases what they will actually be getting is analysis of their own influence operations. In others you just get lots of pandering to whoever is shouting loudest. Lots of politicians and the like seem baffled by reality not matching what they're hearing from Social Media.

Election campaign here, and the opposition had clearly done a load of social media analysis stuff so tailored a bunch of policy and complaints from it. But that was effectively just targeting the loudest voices; and the trouble was that the loudest voices are almost always those who are complaining about stuff rather than those who are happy about it. So they ended up complaining, a lot, about the covid response and put out a load of contradictory "we'd go harder earlier on restrictions, but also we'd be more like Sweden and take a relaxed approach; and shut down the borders harder and earlier, but also let tourists back into the country!" because that's what the loudest SM voices were saying- but when polls were released there was 90% approval for the covid response and National dropped into the 20s from the 40s in terms of voting intentions. They'd almost certainly have done better literally gagging themselves for the past 6 months rather than trying to cater to those yelling loudly on SM.

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15 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Bruce probably idolizes Rhodesia.

I had to reply quickly to this post because its a relevant but very unusual question....what do you know about Rhodesia? If I had to guess I assume you joking about Rhodesia being a racist country ?

But my connection to Zimbabwe is partly historical and ties into the Rhodesian War .....SA shares a border and when the Rhodesian war  started SA secretly  supported the Rhodesian forces  as the UN had declared that SA must not interfere in the affairs of its neighbors meaning no helping its neighbors in fighting against liberation  movements which were  Communist based, this applied to Zimbabwe, Angola and Mozambique 

Of course SA always ignored this as they didnt want  a hostile neighbor on its border so special forces and infantry units were sent secretly to Rhodesia and other countries 

But I do have a connection as we had Rhodesian family who came to SA after the war ended in 1980

 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Because the guy it all started under is the best guy to stop it?

Also because we live here and things aren't as they seem on tv

what is curious to us personal is how many o' the folks here who see on tv the hong kong protesters and sympathize with them is nevertheless calling for more police state when is blm protesters in portland. sure, a couple obsidian posters is channeling the david duke fringe element o' the republican party and we consider such folks a lost cause, but other folks at least claim to be motivated by conscience, and bruce should have the extreme real example o' how the apartheid government o' sa used brutality under the guise o' law and order to suppress protesters and dissent.

we mentioned at the time o' ferguson, the protests are symptomatic o' larger societal concerns beyond what eve the protesters claim is their raison d'être. bruce is looking at unrest and seems to think law enforcement is a solution. he should know better. law and order may be effective in suppressing the protests but such is only exacerbating the problems if there ain't simultaneous efforts to fix the underlying causes o' the protests. 

and no, am not suggesting lawless behaviour should be ignored. don't need to search very hard on these boards to see where we complain 'bout the failure o' any kinda protester leadership which might disavow and help control those behaviours which do not lead to progress and would make john lewis weep. 

protests is a symptom. past Presidents have failed to adequate address the causes. is no question the problems is massive. however, trump is the first President in our lifetime to encourage the divisiveness which is one o' the causes o' the protests. trump has ignored the Constitution and sent federal troops to enforce his view o' law and order in states and localities where  his efforts has been categorical and overt rejected. there has been arrests by individuals claiming to be fed who refuse to identify selves and who routine fail to observe due process and miranda rights o' those detained. labeling o' protesters as domestic terrorists and purveyors o' sedition? really? as such, why would anybody vote for trump if they is genuine concerned 'bout protests? is so the Opposite o' law and order, but it is consistent with police state behaviours.

but perhaps we misread bruce. perhaps he does see blm and hong kong protesters as analogous and mayhap bruce thinks more Chinese style police state behaviours is the appropriate response both in portland and hong kong. 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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4 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

I likewise enjoy talking with you. You're probably on of the most patient and considerate posters in here.

I am voting Trump, same reason I voted Trump back in 2016: I don't like establishment politicians. That's probably a view shared by a lot of Americans, specially after 2 decades of conflict in the middle east, the fall of the middle class and the bailout.  The push to the far left in America is a result of this, Bernie Sander said it best when he equated socialism to social planning and that we now have social planning for the rich, so why can't we have it for the poor.
Unfortunately a lot of people just look at what they stand to gain short term and ignore the long term failures of a state run economy. Simply put, you trust a mechanic to fix your car but you would be wary of a state appointed administrator that doesn't know a wheel from a carburetor directing the fixing of your car.  Socialism fails because it promotes based on ideology and inner politics rather than merit.

Antifa is already being dealt with in a way, from journalist Andy Ngo (he was attacked by Antifa) crusade to hold violent members accountable by tweeting their PUBLIC arrest records. To the Trump administration deputizing State and Local PD in these areas in order to bypass District Attorneys that won't prosecute these violent criminals and instead charge them in a Federal court.


The problem is that Antifa is just a symptom not a disease, they are the result of ideological subversion and a corporatist culture that has grown unchecked and denied constitutional rights to citizen. Whilst telling you that you're being whiny just because you can afford a smartphone.

Its been a serendipitous time for me when you returned because I am very glad to say you represent a group of Trump supporters  that I had no information on before the last election .....we were told that most of the Hispanic community would vote for Clinton because of how racist Trump was and how he wanted to deport all Mexicans and people from the region.But he actually only said illegal immigrants must be deported  and had no issue with people arriving legally So if I can guess about your journey in the USA, let me know what I am wrong about 

Your family was forced to leave Cuba by the Castro regime....what was the reason so many Cubans were forced to leave Cuba...political persecutions ?That is why you have such a dislike of socialism ...it played a huge part in forcing many Cubans to leave there own country and   you are part of the Florida Hispanic and this group is loyal to Trump 

Would you go back to live in Cuba if Trump was gone because it may that  simple because you are an  American now. How are Hispanic community in Florida feeling about the virus and how are you guys personally?

When Trump won in the last election I was shattered and really upset because this was not suppose to happen ,,,,,everyone said Trump would never win. Anyway a couple of days later I was much better and went off 

 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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53 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But he actually only said illegal immigrants must be deported  and had no issue with people arriving legally

I've already post on why the first part of this is misleading. As for the second part, his track record is public information.

It's not difficult to make something *sound* benevolent and/or rational.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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6 minutes ago, Achilles said:

I've already post on why the first part of this is misleading. As for the second part, his track record is public information.

It's not difficult to make something *sound* benevolent and/or rational.

Hi Achillles

Can you summarize your point around this again  as I would like to continue with this debate ?

 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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14 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Its been a serendipitous time for me when you returned because I am very glad to say you represent a group of Trump supporters  that I had no information on before the last election .....we were told that most of the Hispanic community would vote for Clinton because of how racist Trump was and how he wanted to deport all Mexicans and people from the region.But he actually only said illegal immigrants must be deported  and had no issue with people arriving legally So if I can guess about your journey in the USA, let me know what I am wrong about 

Your family was forced to leave Cuba by the Castro regime....what was the reason so many Cubans were forced to leave Cuba...political persecutions ?That is why you have such a dislike of socialism ...it played a huge part in forcing many Cubans to leave there own country and   you are part of the Florida Hispanic and this group is loyal to Trump 

Would you go back to live in Cuba if Trump was gone because it may that  simple because you are an  American now. How are Hispanic community in Florida feeling about the virus and how are you guys personally?

When Trump won in the last election I was shattered and really upset because this was not suppose to happen ,,,,,everyone said Trump would never win. Anyway a couple of days later I was much better and went off 

 

The thing about America media is that they tend to bundle minorities into the same groups. The reality is, that all minorities in the US have different opinions about everything. Now Cubans mostly lean right because we left a leftist authoritarian government. Yet despite that, there are Cubans that do lean left. My second mother who was a teacher is very left leaning, likely due to teacher unions having a big pull in S Florida. One of my other mothers, (don't ask mama was a rolling stone) could be diagnosed with Trump derangement syndrome. She just hates the guy no matter what and no matter how little she knows about procedures. We are talking blaming Trump for mistakes made by the state governor that has more authority over the state than Trump. It is a common thing with Hispanics, since we generally come from autocratic governments. That we can't fathom the idea of a state governor having more of a say than the president of the US.

I can say that all around my neighborhood I've seen several Trump signs, very mixed signs when it comes to the local elections (both blue and red) but not one Biden sign.

As for Trump deportation of immigrants...it is a tough issue but....Obama cancelled the privilege that Cubans had where we would be citizens on touching US ground (probably because we didn't vote Hillary) it is not that we don't care about other nationalities, because we share the same experience with them. Literally we work,met and share our life with almost everyone from South America, that's a given in South Florida where you can point to an area and say "Thats' where the Venezuelan live" and the same for other nationalities.

The turning point for me personally was a story about a Salvadorian business owner that refused to pay MS-13 protection money. He sent his family to the US; his wife and daughter, so that they would be safe while he kept the fight for his business....The story is going to get dark now but....MS-13 operates within the US, they tracked his family took the daughter and...you can guess the rest. The full package mind you.
So when it came to immigration I took the view that, those that are fleeing the horrors of their countries should be followed by them because of our support of illegal immigration. Quite frankly, a lot of people emigrate because of necessity not because of desire, the goodwill of the American people would be better spent in asking that Hispanic countries are helped to develop so that people have opportunities rather than allowing illegals to struggle in the US.
It just goes back to that whole, the media bundles all minorities together, so the Venezuelan mechanical engineer is better of making low wages in the US than they would be if their country didn't fall.
I'm not asking for some manifest destiny crap but it would be great if Hispanics in the US could both organize and have enough funds to aid their countries political situation.

I don't think we were forced to leave Cuba...I mean we chose to. Some people that had the chance refused and some that made it  to the US actually went back. Its always a spectrum, but the reason we left was because like a lot of people, we didn't have a future in Cuba. Particularly my family that had already been rejected by the government, literally: One of my mothers was a Cuban foreign diplomat that got to travel abroad until her gender preference was discovered.  She and my biological mother then became outcasts, by which I mean that they weren't eligible for state jobs and their record had it marked that they were lesbians.


As for the virus, we Floridians pretty much own the fact that we are the most corrupted state in the US and we understand that if you get stabbed to death but had a fever and coughs...you died of Covid. It is inevitable when you have a disease that keeps people away from hospitals but incentives cases of said disease. When people stop going to their regular checkup because of Covid you best believe that hospitals will have a lot of Covid deaths, just to get federal funding and survive.

I dislike Socialism currently because after much study I understand that it and Communism fail because of a single individual; that's unqualified to make decisions on every topic, goes unchallenged whenever they propose something stupid. You only have to look at Lysenkoism or Mao's Four pest campaign to understand the failure of having only one option for the whole country.
Despite having lived through socialism, I've met several Cuban leftists that do fall for the US media trapping of equating leftism with classical liberal values. Those are the ones that hate Trump but can't really support the left as it touts the banner of the socialism that they left behind.

If I go back to Cuba it would be over a weekend and just to walk the city that I grew up in. See the sights, indulge the memories and revel in nostalgia...but I never have and I don't know if I will. I fear both that It will be marred by changes in the landscape and the fact that I no longer share the same life experience as my compatriots. It's akin to being born in prison, it is a culture within itself but once you're outside people just ask about what you can do for them.

Trump was the anti-establishment choice, this was a thing long time coming. Same as Brexit and other swings to the right. People just had enough of both parties breaking promises and going against the electorate's will. Trump actually capitulated on this and ran as an Anti War, Anti SJW, Anti Establishment, moderate (except his promise to build the wall) All the people that were tired of the war and this forced insane political correctness voted for him.
Honestly as far as my vote in 2016, I would have lost complete hope in the voting process and America if Trump didn't get elected. If the establishment had won back then I probably be just as outraged as Bernie voters are right now(Antifa).

Anyways I hope that covers your doubts, sorry for the long post

TL;DR: This is really just for Bruce but feel free to opine

 

 

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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14 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Hi Achillles

Can you summarize your point around this again  as I would like to continue with this debate ?

Our immigration system is currently set up to make legal immigration impossible for most people, so the argument that he's only concerned about illegal immigration is misleading. Under Obama a program was passed that prioritized investigation of illegal immigrant who were also criminals and basically provided cover for "illegal immigrants" who were brought here as children (meaning that the U.S. was the only country they had ever known). Trump reversed this. Again, disingenuous.

He and his initial AG, Jeff Sessions, set up a system that summarily makes the other legal path, asylum, not only impossible as a pathway to entry but a deterrent for people who are even thinking of asking for it. AKA "children in cages", etc. Where the kindest thing that you can say about his other actions is that he's bending the truth. on this one he's outright lying.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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4 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

The thing about America media is that they tend to bundle minorities into the same groups. The reality is, that all minorities in the US have different opinions about everything. Now Cubans mostly lean right because we left a leftist authoritarian government. Yet despite that, there are Cubans that do lean left. My second mother who was a teacher is very left leaning, likely due to teacher unions having a big pull in S Florida. One of my other mothers, (don't ask mama was a rolling stone) could be diagnosed with Trump derangement syndrome. She just hates the guy no matter what and no matter how little she knows about procedures. We are talking blaming Trump for mistakes made by the state governor that has more authority over the state than Trump. It is a common thing with Hispanics, since we generally come from autocratic governments. That we can't fathom the idea of a state governor having more of a say than the president of the US.

I can say that all around my neighborhood I've seen several Trump signs, very mixed signs when it comes to the local elections (both blue and red) but not one Biden sign.

As for Trump deportation of immigrants...it is a tough issue but....Obama cancelled the privilege that Cubans had where we would be citizens on touching US ground (probably because we didn't vote Hillary) it is not that we don't care about other nationalities, because we share the same experience with them. Literally we work,met and share our life with almost everyone from South America, that's a given in South Florida where you can point to an area and say "Thats' where the Venezuelan live" and the same for other nationalities.

The turning point for me personally was a story about a Salvadorian business owner that refused to pay MS-13 protection money. He sent his family to the US; his wife and daughter, so that they would be safe while he kept the fight for his business....The story is going to get dark now but....MS-13 operates within the US, they tracked his family took the daughter and...you can guess the rest. The full package mind you.
So when it came to immigration I took the view that, those that are fleeing the horrors of their countries should be followed by them because of our support of illegal immigration. Quite frankly, a lot of people emigrate because of necessity not because of desire, the goodwill of the American people would be better spent in asking that Hispanic countries are helped to develop so that people have opportunities rather than allowing illegals to struggle in the US.
It just goes back to that whole, the media bundles all minorities together, so the Venezuelan mechanical engineer is better of making low wages in the US than they would be if their country didn't fall.
I'm not asking for some manifest destiny crap but it would be great if Hispanics in the US could both organize and have enough funds to aid their countries political situation.

I don't think we were forced to leave Cuba...I mean we chose to. Some people that had the chance refused and some that made it  to the US actually went back. Its always a spectrum, but the reason we left was because like a lot of people, we didn't have a future in Cuba. Particularly my family that had already been rejected by the government, literally: One of my mothers was a Cuban foreign diplomat that got to travel abroad until her gender preference was discovered.  She and my biological mother then became outcasts, by which I mean that they weren't eligible for state jobs and their record had it marked that they were lesbians.


As for the virus, we Floridians pretty much own the fact that we are the most corrupted state in the US and we understand that if you get stabbed to death but had a fever and coughs...you died of Covid. It is inevitable when you have a disease that keeps people away from hospitals but incentives cases of said disease. When people stop going to their regular checkup because of Covid you best believe that hospitals will have a lot of Covid deaths, just to get federal funding and survive.

I dislike Socialism currently because after much study I understand that it and Communism fail because of a single individual; that's unqualified to make decisions on every topic, goes unchallenged whenever they propose something stupid. You only have to look at Lysenkoism or Mao's Four pest campaign to understand the failure of having only one option for the whole country.
Despite having lived through socialism, I've met several Cuban leftists that do fall for the US media trapping of equating leftism with classical liberal values. Those are the ones that hate Trump but can't really support the left as it touts the banner of the socialism that they left behind.

If I go back to Cuba it would be over a weekend and just to walk the city that I grew up in. See the sights, indulge the memories and revel in nostalgia...but I never have and I don't know if I will. I fear both that It will be marred by changes in the landscape and the fact that I no longer share the same life experience as my compatriots. It's akin to being born in prison, it is a culture within itself but once you're outside people just ask about what you can do for them.

Trump was the anti-establishment choice, this was a thing long time coming. Same as Brexit and other swings to the right. People just had enough of both parties breaking promises and going against the electorate's will. Trump actually capitulated on this and ran as an Anti War, Anti SJW, Anti Establishment, moderate (except his promise to build the wall) All the people that were tired of the war and this forced insane political correctness voted for him.
Honestly as far as my vote in 2016, I would have lost complete hope in the voting process and America if Trump didn't get elected. If the establishment had won back then I probably be just as outraged as Bernie voters are right now(Antifa).

Anyways I hope that covers your doubts, sorry for the long post

TL;DR: This is really just for Bruce but feel free to opine 

 

 

You will not believe this, I was just   about to  respond with about an 8 paragraph post and I accidently shut down the session.....sorry Orog, I will respond  later...I will respond because I wanted to  say several things because your post has got interesting questions I didnt know where to respond 

But later I will redo the response in a better way :thumbsup:

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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10 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Trump was the anti-establishment choice, this was a thing long time coming. Same as Brexit and other swings to the right. People just had enough of both parties breaking promises and going against the electorate's will.

That's one take.

Another take is that populism is that a common response to economic hardship and that most people don't pay attention to what their elected leaders are doing, let alone pay enough attention to keep track of what the "electorate's will" is.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: politicians will turn on a dime when the electorate tells them to. The fact that they don't is a failure of an informed electorate. The buck stops with us.

Quote

Honestly as far as my vote in 2016, I would have lost complete hope in the voting process and America if Trump didn't get elected. If the establishment had won back then I probably be just as outraged as Bernie voters are right now(Antifa).

I've asked a number of people over the years to operationally define, "establishment". No one can.

If I get hurt and need an operation, I want an "establishment" surgeon to perform the operation. If my car breaks down and needs repairs, I want an "establishment" mechanic behind the wrench. When I buckle my seatbelt on an airplane, I'm really hoping there's an "establishment" pilot flying me to my destination.

Amateur hour is great for comedy clubs. I prefer to keep it out of meaningful things like leading the free world, etc.

I don't blame politicians for being politicians. I blame the voting public for allowing the bad ones to remain in office.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

what is curious to us personal is how many o' the folks here who see on tv the hong kong protesters and sympathize with them is nevertheless calling for more police state when is blm protesters in portland.

Maybe it's because people can distinguish between people protesting in a peaceful way against tyranic regime and destroying property and looting in the name of junkie that overdosed in police presence.

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9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

No I am not suggesting prison time unless its warranted  :p...but I would like to get your opinion as another non-American. You live in Germany right...where do you live in Germany if you dont mind sharing? 

I'm not German. Lexx is. Ben was too, wherever he went. I'm living in what essentially amounts to a gentrified suburb of Vienna.

My opinion on whether I would like the US or China to be able to collect my data, in which case the answer is easy: Neither. On how to deal with Antifa? Leave them be. Looters and people who damage property? Arrest them and deal with them according to the law.

And... fix the underlying issues. Violent protests are a symptom, not a cause. Although that one is considerably less easy. *shrug*

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1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

Maybe it's because people can distinguish between people protesting in a peaceful way against tyranic regime and destroying property and looting in the name of junkie that overdosed in police presence.

anybody at all surprised a skarp_one description would be woeful inaccurate?

hardly an isolated example.

the thing is, am suspecting you identify the real pivot point, if only by accident. the blm protesters, in your mind, have insufficient motivation. blm is "looting in the name of junkie that overdosed in police presence." therefore it is just and proper for the US government to resort to police state tactics to suppress the blm protests. converse, the people in hong kong are fighting the good fight 'gainst the chinese hegemony we has been hearing 'bout so much o' late. hong kong protesters deserve sympathy and support. blm deserves liberal use o' police batons, nameless federal troops and tear gas.

it may be a difficult concept for skarp_one to grasp, but what you imply is fundamental unamerican. see, the message and motive is never the justification for government limits or suppression o' protests. 'course such a misapprehension o' American values, perhaps understandable foreign to skarp-one and his ilk, ignores point that what the US government is doing to suppress blm protesters violates Constitution, federal statutes and state laws. nevertheless, somehow the lack o' legitimacy o' blm makes such violations o' law not only tolerable but desirable for  trump supporters.

am not surprised by skarp_one's reply. however, it is the individuals who claim conscience and yet remain noticeable quiet when they is asked to defend muslim bans and the police state response to blm protests who is most disappointing and a bit chilling. much as trump clear knew the dangers 'o covid and nevertheless pressed forward with a plan to minimize rational government response to a global pandemic, am suspecting many trump supporters is equal clearheaded 'bout the manner in which their chosen candidate daily violates the rule of law and any concept o' decency. the faustian bargain has been struck and there is no going back for most such faux republicans who has lost their way. each additional proof o' incompetence and corruption from trump has the curious opposite impact from what would be reasonable in such circumstances.

skarp_one is one o' the lost causes and he needs no such justifications to embrace police state tactics. am more curious 'bout the salvageable souls 'mongst the trump flock.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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1 hour ago, majestic said:

I'm not German. Lexx is. Ben was too, wherever he went. I'm living in what essentially amounts to a gentrified suburb of Vienna.

My opinion on whether I would like the US or China to be able to collect my data, in which case the answer is easy: Neither. On how to deal with Antifa? Leave them be. Looters and people who damage property? Arrest them and deal with them according to the law.

And... fix the underlying issues. Violent protests are a symptom, not a cause. Although that one is considerably less easy. *shrug*

Holy smoke young grasshopper ....the way you rejected being German you would assume I was suggesting you might be ....Russian?? Sorry for insulting you :thumbsup:

You do know that Austria is considered part of Germany by most people? Austrian dialect is basically the same and you guys have very close history and friendship ? Thats why your meal you posted seemed so familiar, it was an Austrian cooking school....Ostrich seemed a bit decadent for Germans but not for Austrians 🍝

But on a serious note I didnt know you were from Austria, thats a huge distinction for me because Austria is where our families go  skiing....it is our favorite EU country  outside of UK because we have spent  the most time their on holiday. And you how each EU country is brilliant in its own way and could  easily become a tender for "favorite " country so well done for being the best EU country !!! And for South Africans there seems to be a competition between Italy, Switerland or Austria for best skiing destinations ....we always go to Austria and we stay in Lech. Switzerland is amazing  but far too expensive ....staying in Zug is just ridiculous to justify 

If you want I can tell you more what  I like about Austria but only if you interested because you will know these things so its more about discussing things in your country if you keen?

 Do you snowboard or ski ?

 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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10 hours ago, Gromnir said:

what is curious to us personal is how many o' the folks here who see on tv the hong kong protesters and sympathize with them is nevertheless calling for more police state when is blm protesters in portland. sure, a couple obsidian posters is channeling the david duke fringe element o' the republican party and we consider such folks a lost cause, but other folks at least claim to be motivated by conscience, and bruce should have the extreme real example o' how the apartheid government o' sa used brutality under the guise o' law and order to suppress protesters and dissent.

we mentioned at the time o' ferguson, the protests are symptomatic o' larger societal concerns beyond what eve the protesters claim is their raison d'être. bruce is looking at unrest and seems to think law enforcement is a solution. he should know better. law and order may be effective in suppressing the protests but such is only exacerbating the problems if there ain't simultaneous efforts to fix the underlying causes o' the protests. 

and no, am not suggesting lawless behaviour should be ignored. don't need to search very hard on these boards to see where we complain 'bout the failure o' any kinda protester leadership which might disavow and help control those behaviours which do not lead to progress and would make john lewis weep. 

protests is a symptom. past Presidents have failed to adequate address the causes. is no question the problems is massive. however, trump is the first President in our lifetime to encourage the divisiveness which is one o' the causes o' the protests. trump has ignored the Constitution and sent federal troops to enforce his view o' law and order in states and localities where  his efforts has been categorical and overt rejected. there has been arrests by individuals claiming to be fed who refuse to identify selves and who routine fail to observe due process and miranda rights o' those detained. labeling o' protesters as domestic terrorists and purveyors o' sedition? really? as such, why would anybody vote for trump if they is genuine concerned 'bout protests? is so the Opposite o' law and order, but it is consistent with police state behaviours.

but perhaps we misread bruce. perhhaps he does see blm and hong kong protesters as analogous and mayhap bruce thinks more Chinese style police state behaviours is the appropriate response both in portland and hong kong. 

HA! Good Fun!

I am glad you are responding because I am concerned with a lack of ......solutions and concern with the last 100 days of violence we have seen?

I dont support the way the CCP has handled HK, its must be one of the worst  examples of how any country could incorporate HK...the China really dont know  HK needs its own independence and they will be responsible for the collapse or huge weakening of the HK economy ....and that will he on the China

But lets not use HK as an example of how you should address any protest....its so bad we dont to even consider it.

I am talking about the normal application of riot police and security , in Portland, to show citizens that the governor is in control. You cant believe this impasse is acceptable? The mayor never seemed to take responsibility and seemed more concerned with federal agents being provoking protestors 

Maybe Portland is a one off but I dont believe it is ...we may be  dealing with BLM protests on an ongoing basis? I do have some ideas which I can share with you ?

 

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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A lot has been said the past few days on the friendship between Scalia and his wife and RBG and her husband. I really don't understand why so many pundits find this surprising. Don't they have colleagues with differing political leanings and interests that they are still friends with? 

LOL! What am I saying? These are MEDIA pundits. They are more segregated than Mobile city bus on Nov 30 1955! They don't even KNOW anyone with differing politics!

Get off my lawn!

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5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

anybody at all surprised a skarp_one description would be woeful inaccurate?

hardly an isolated example.

the thing is, am suspecting you identify the real pivot point, if only by accident. the blm protesters, in your mind, have insufficient motivation. blm is "looting in the name of junkie that overdosed in police presence." therefore it is just and proper for the US government to resort to police state tactics to suppress the blm protests. converse, the people in hong kong are fighting the good fight 'gainst the chinese hegemony we has been hearing 'bout so much o' late. hong kong protesters deserve sympathy and support. blm deserves liberal use o' police batons, nameless federal troops and tear gas.

it may be a difficult concept for skarp_one to grasp, but what you imply is fundamental unamerican. see, the message and motive is never the justification for government limits or suppression o' protests. 'course such a misapprehension o' American values, perhaps understandable foreign to skarp-one and his ilk, ignores point that what the US government is doing to suppress blm protesters violates Constitution, federal statutes and state laws. nevertheless, somehow the lack o' legitimacy o' blm makes such violations o' law not only tolerable but desirable for  trump supporters.

am not surprised by skarp_one's reply. however, it is the individuals who claim conscience and yet remain noticeable quiet when they is asked to defend muslim bans and the police state response to blm protests who is most disappointing and a bit chilling. much as trump clear knew the dangers 'o covid and nevertheless pressed forward with a plan to minimize rational government response to a global pandemic, am suspecting many trump supporters is equal clearheaded 'bout the manner in which their chosen candidate daily violates the rule of law and any concept o' decency. the faustian bargain has been struck and there is no going back for most such faux republicans who has lost their way. each additional proof o' incompetence and corruption from trump has the curious opposite impact from what would be reasonable in such circumstances.

skarp_one is one o' the lost causes and he needs no such justifications to embrace police state tactics. am more curious 'bout the salvageable souls 'mongst the trump flock.

HA! Good Fun!

This is also hardly and isolated example:

I could ask is anyone surprised by self proclaimed conservative Grommie is once again defending the radical leftist movements and puts an equal sign between HK protests and BLM and Antifa looting stores. This is beyond insulting that someone could conceive such a thought as to compare people fighting for better future for their country with thugs stealing 80" plasma screen. 

If it would be true that US constitution allows looting, destroying private property and beating (even killing) people as a lawful way to protest then I would not blame any politician to wipe their behind with such a document. But as a matter of fact I know US constitution does no such thing. And this is important to me as many Polish people fought alongside Americans in Independence War and US Constitution was such an impact that few years later Poland became the second nation in the world that proclaimed it's own Constitution. 

Sorry, but I will not sit quietly while some leftist shill insults a great HK people. Not while being from a country that fought tooth and nail for own independence for centuries.  

  

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

A lot has been said the past few days on the friendship between Scalia and his wife and RBG and her husband. I really don't understand why so many pundits find this surprising. Don't they have colleagues with differing political leanings and interests that they are still friends with? 

LOL! What am I saying? These are MEDIA pundits. They are more segregated than Mobile city bus on Nov 30 1955! They don't even KNOW anyone with differing politics!

Weren't there numerous pushes from the left to remove people of opposite views from your friends and families? From a movement that have tolerance and inclusivity on their banners they ten to tribalize fast.

Edited by Skarpen

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